Saw this Northwest Escape kayak for sale in San Diego and thought it looked a bit like a Mariner. Were they one of the companies "borrowing" from Mariner? Perhaps you Mariner owners will tell me they don't really look the same. Doesn't seem to have the rocker of my friends Mariners, just a hint of the lines. Don't get any real Mariners for sale in my neck of the woods. http://sandiego.craigslist.org/ssd/sgd/3217888041.html Just wondering... Mark Sanders *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
That is an actual Mariner kayak... the Escape. I had one for a while myself (paid $400 for it). Not as comfortable as the Express and not as fast as the Mariner II. Still, for $299 it would make an acceptable kayak. Craig On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Mark Sanders <marksanders_at_sandmarks.net>wrote: > Saw this Northwest Escape kayak for sale in San Diego and thought it > looked a bit like a Mariner. Were they one of the companies "borrowing" > from Mariner? Perhaps you Mariner owners will tell me they don't really > look the same. Doesn't seem to have the rocker of my friends Mariners, just > a hint of the lines. > Don't get any real Mariners for sale in my neck of the woods. > > http://sandiego.craigslist.**org/ssd/sgd/3217888041.html<http://sandiego.craigslist.org/ssd/sgd/3217888041.html> > > Just wondering... > Mark Sanders *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Sanders wrote: >>>>>>>>Saw this Northwest Escape kayak for sale in San Diego and thought it looked a bit like a Mariner. Were they one of the companies "borrowing" from Mariner? Perhaps you Mariner owners will tell me they don't really look the same. Doesn't seem to have the rocker of my friends Mariners, just a hint of the lines. Don't get any real Mariners for sale in my neck of the woods. http://sandiego.craigslist.org/ssd/sgd/3217888041.html Just wondering...<<<<<<< Some of the story of the Escape can be found on the Model History page of our website www.marinerkayaks.com. The reason there is a NW Kayaks Escape is because the owner, of what later became NWK, built our original Mariner hulls and decks in his garage back in 1981 (after we built the first five) and wanted to make a more stable, good handling, sea kayak to sell wholesale. We worked out an agreement that he (the future NWK owner) would make the mold from a rough plug that we designed and provided to him and he would produce kayaks for sale from it. We would get royalties and retained the rights to buy unfinished Escapes (and finish them ourselves with the outfitting we wanted) and sell them ourselves as Mariner Escapes. It became a very popular sea kayak back then, we were soon six months back ordered, NW Kayaks made enough profit to being well on its way to being bigger company. Because of the agreement, we soon ended up competing with REI, The Swallows Nest, and White-Water Sports, all selling NWK versions of the Escape retail in Seattle within a few miles from us. Not an enviable position. While NWK's built all the Mariner hulls and decks (or more after we opened a retail store in 1987) until 1999 we had a different agreement that at first gave us exclusive rights to sell in WA and OR and gave NWK the ability to wholesale their versions outside that area. By 1990 we had ended the agreement allowing the original NWK's owner to wholesale our kayak models because of the corner cutting NWK was doing with the wholesale kayaks that we never got to see, but certainly often heard about. Those wholesale kayaks were hurting our reputation for quality. While there were many reasons to end that agreement, such as our own customers having to wait too long to get a kayak from the molds, and several quality issues, gluing in the coamings on the wholesale Mariner's (that all later all broke out) rather than fiberglassing them in place like we had always done was the last straw. And this was after I specifically told the owner not to glue in the cockpit coamings in Mariner kayak models, at least until he had at a years experience with his own kayaks glued in cockpit rims and had no troubles, and then he could ask me about it again. NWK built and seamed together all the Escape hulls (but just the hull and decks of our other models which we finished from there, until we opened a store in 1987). While the Escape didn't need a rudder (especially with the sliding seat version) NWK added a rather clunky rudder to the wholesale Escapes. Only the earliest wholesale NWK Escapes had a sliding seat. NWK couldn't seem to make the sliding seats so they wouldn't break or keep the tracks from coming unglued, even though I would show them exactly what had to be done (and we weren't having any trouble at all that way ourselves). As a result, we had to stop them from selling sliding seat versions to protect our reputation for quality. Several other manufacturers at the time started putting in tracks in to hold their seats down (and allow it to be removable--but never with the footpedals attached to make it instantly adjustable) and I was put in the unenviable position of having to tell my competitors the best way to prepare and glue down the seat tracks in order that their kayaks seat tracks coming unglued didn't hurt our company's reputation (even though we never had any problems that way). The original Escape plug that we provided to NWK had a lot more rocker than the actual Escapes had. We made that plug to at first be a kayak we could test paddle and modify until it was just the way we wanted it. Among other modifications to the original design, I filled in a lot more volume at the sides near the bow (below the extreme bow flare) so that the buoyancy of the bow would be more progressive, rather than sink quickly to the flare and then stop suddenly (and also to prevent the original radical bow flare from throwing more spray around when it splashed down on the water's surface). NWK smoothed up the plug in order to make the molds from it and put a very dark final smoothing finish on the plug. The plug was fairly lightweight and had the bulkheads (every 30cm) removed for test paddling and to make the plug easier to smooth with a long board (of sandpaper--without taking more material off at the hard bulkhead contact areas). The combination of the extra filer material at the bow, the light bulkheadless plug, and the dark finish (having been placed out in the hot summer sun by NWK), resulted in the bow rocker being reduced a lot by the time the molds had been made from the plug. So the final Escape was not quite what we had designed, but it was still a great kayak. It had a huge secondary stability (and too much initial stability with a gear load for my tastes--making it too much work to lean to turn--which it would do beautifully when empty) combined with a narrow waterline kayak that won a lot of kayak races back in the 1980's against longer and much narrower kayaks. The length of the Escape is 16-7 (rather than 17' in the advertisement--unless you count the rudder). $299 sounds like a fantastic price for someone who wants a very stable and seakindly kayak, most suitable for a large, or big footed paddler, most have been going for closer to $1000. The Mariner XL (1985) replaced the Escape in our line except for especially large or big footed paddlers. The Max (a modified XL) replaced the XL in our line in 1992. NWK was our builder and knew exactly how many of each model we were selling (at one time anyway, we were selling retail about 1/4 of all the kayaks (theirs and ours) that NWK built). Many of the NWK models were inspired, or in some cases even more than that) by Mariner models. At one point the owner, when sitting on a panel of kayak designers, that had all been asked the question as to how they designed their kayaks, said something very like: Matt and Cam are the best kayak designers. I look at what they do, and then I do like that. The Mariner II likely inspired the NWK Discover and Synergy. They were pretty nice kayaks. The Coaster imitation, the Sportee (that CCK demanded after they could no longer buy NWK Coasters) had all the same major dimensions, but was a very poor imitation (and also a flop). The NWK Esprit was carved from a block of expanding foam that had been formed in Escape molds. I didn't learn those details for several years, but I was pretty sure the Esprit had come directly from the slightly large Escape or the slightly smaller Mariner Sprite somehow. The Seaworthy Kayak's Enatai was another kayak inspired by the Escape (but it wasn't a copy). There was a Coaster for sale in San Diego recently by its second owner. The original owner was someone who has been on Paddlewise. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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