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From: Jackie Fenton <jackie_at_intelenet.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling Clubs
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:47:30 -0800 (PST)
>
> From: ap294_at_freenet.carleton.ca (Niels Henriksen)
> 
> >On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Niels Henriksen wrote:
> >>>Please remember that you can always be sued for negligence.
> >true.
> >
> >>>A Waiver can not remove this right.
> >
> >depends on the state, and the country. i guess this is a good opportunity
> >to remind people that this is an international mailing list, and what
> >works in one place may not in another...
> 
> There is no document that I know that can waive the right to sue for negiilence.


Actually, there is.  As scary as it may sound, there is an new tactic being used
by some HMO's and it is called a physician-patient arbitration agreement that 
the patient signs giving away their right to a jury or court trial in the cases
of malpractice and instead, use an "independent" arbitrator, regardless of whether 
it is a case of negligence or not.  You don't sign, you don't receive service.  
I guess if physicians, hospitals, and insurance companies can do it....


> A waiver can state to the indivuidual that there are inherent risks in the 
> undertaking and therefore it is the person's responsibility to make sure that 
> they understand the risks.


I read the waiver on the web site that Hank gave:

       http://www.teleport.com/nonprofit/LCCC/waiver.htm

What I really liked was the emphasis on individual responsiblity.  In other
words, it is the paddler that is ultimately responsible for their own safety
and I think this is an excellent beginning for a new paddler.  To understand
that the risks they take are ultimately of their own decision.  I can't help
but wonder if a statement which reads that failure to follow the directions
of the trip leader/coordinator will result in the paddler being unable to
participate in any further club trips might send the message that the 
leader/coordinator is ultimate authority and therefore accepting responsibility 
for the safety of the paddlers.  Waivers and liability issues aside, I think
getting the paddler to think about what they are doing and the possible 
outcome is the most important lesson.  That could start with the waiver they
sign when joining the club.  Doesn't matter whether it holds up in court, imho,
but it could be used as a springboard to teaching safety awareness which is an
important benefit of joining a club.

Actually, I liked John Winter's waiver.  I think I'll change his name to
mine, all the he's to she's, and run off several copies for my next coordinated
trip :-)

Cheers!

Jackie (who can't wait to read about Barb's hippos!)
http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/

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From: <dldecker_at_mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling Clubs
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:27:03 -0500
>
>What I really liked was the emphasis on individual responsiblity.  In other
>words, it is the paddler that is ultimately responsible for their own safety
>and I think this is an excellent beginning for a new paddler.  To understand
>that the risks they take are ultimately of their own decision.  I can't help
>but wonder if a statement which reads that failure to follow the directions
>of the trip leader/coordinator will result in the paddler being unable to
>participate in any further club trips might send the message that the 
>leader/coordinator is ultimate authority and therefore accepting
responsibility 
>for the safety of the paddlers.  Waivers and liability issues aside, I think
>getting the paddler to think about what they are doing and the possible 
>outcome is the most important lesson.  That could start with the waiver they
>sign when joining the club.  Doesn't matter whether it holds up in court,
imho,
>but it could be used as a springboard to teaching safety awareness which
is an
>important benefit of joining a club.
>
>Actually, I liked John Winter's waiver.  I think I'll change his name to
>mine, all the he's to she's, and run off several copies for my next
coordinated
>trip :-)
>
>Cheers!
>
>Jackie (who can't wait to read about Barb's hippos!)
>http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/


After reading these waivers I think to really let it hit home there ought
to be a line somthing like this in it.
_______________________________________________
Next of Kin in case of INJURY or DEATH

Name___
Address__
Telephone Number____
________________________________________________

or 
________________________________________________

In case of DEATH the said Club gets to salvage off your
Body and or Boat all usable objects, including said boat .

___________________________________________________-

I should play a lawyer on TV

Dana

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