I've followed the thread on ballast with interest. When I paddle my Dagger Meridian without the gear that I normally carry, I can feel the increased sensitivity to wind and waves. In early January, I paddled at the coast (NC) under conditions in which all I needed in my rear hatch was my emergency dry bag. A week later on a lake I carried my regular winter kit: 2.5 liters of water, emergency dry bag, tarp, fuel bottle, and cook kit. All of these items, except the tarp, go in the rear and pushed up against the cockpit bulkhead. My Meridian was noticeably more stable. I'm accustomed to paddling with my winter kit or the equivalent and I'm comfortable with it. Bob -------------------------------------------------- Robert C. Perkins, Ph.D. Associate Dean for Research and Planning Methodist College, Fayetteville, NC 28311 910-630-7037 rperkins_at_methodist.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
I have been following this ballast discussion with great interest. It makes me feel pretty dumb. I keep asking myself why anyone would want to add 30 pounds or more of dead weight to their boat that needs to be hefted with every launching or takeout as well as propelled through the water with every paddle stroke. Wouldn't it be better to get a boat that is sufficiently stable by design for your paddling skills and you individual sense of comfort regarding touchiness and stability of the boat? If one can't handle paddling a certain boat comfortably and within one's skills then adding weight seems a weird approach. I can see it if you bought the boat, find it too tippy and then rather than buy another boat pasting in some lead, tying down water bags, whatever. There is a tendency for many paddlers to feel they have to get into elite boats, which usually means longer, skinnier, Greenland style boats, while not having the skills, experience, etc. to make the most of what those boats offer. You don't see a person adding ballast to an Arluk IV. It strikes me as weird getting an Arluk 1.8 and then, when finding it too much boat to handle, pasting in lead. Get the Arluk IV or whatever the equivalent is today; I don't keep up much on the zillions of hardshell models out there any more but I do see it with the Feathercraft Khatsalano. People who should not be in the Khats buy it on the belief it will make them faster or make them feel they will become a better paddler. But often, some of those people might be better off, if they want to stay in the Feathercraft family, to go with a K-1 or even, for many of them, the K-Light. I know of one fellow who has a Khats but paddles it only in the summer and in fairer conditions because he has been know to tip over in the Khats and doesn't want to do it in rough conditions or cold water. More power to him, it seems to make him happy, but I find it a bit strange. I guess an analogy might be running shoes. There are some sleek, real light weight models meant for fast running and racing. But would you buy a pair if you are a plodding, overpronating jogger and heavy on your feet? Sensibly not, I would hope!!! Of course, there is an argument in boats that goes like this "I want to buy a boat I can grow into rather than one that I will outgrow in skills." I guess a jogger could argue the same to convince himself (I am being gender specific; women tend to be smarter on this) to start with a lightweight racing pair of running shoes. Paddle wise & pick wise in the first place when choosing a boat ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > I have been following this ballast discussion with great interest. It > makes me feel pretty dumb. I keep asking myself why anyone would want > to add 30 pounds or more of dead weight to their boat that needs to be > hefted with every launching or takeout as well as propelled through the > water with every paddle stroke. Wouldn't it be better to get a boat > that is sufficiently stable by design for your paddling skills and you > individual sense of comfort regarding touchiness and stability of the > boat? Ralph has a very good point, to which I'll raise two exceptions. You may have a boat that's perfect when loaded with gear, but just too tender when you're in it alone. Or perhaps your double rides too high when you're soloing it, or maybe you need ballast to balance that double when one cockpit is empty. The other is the point Hutchinson makes, that ballast may be useful if you want to pursue a lot of hands-off activity, like photography or fishing. In that case some lead may just make sense. Beyond that my interest is entirely academic ;-) -- mike, practicing a low brace with a 4# 7' flyrod... ---------------------------------------- Michael J Edelman mje_at_mich.com http://www.mich.com/~mje http://www.mich.com/~mje/kayak.html http://www.mich.com/~mje/scope.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Thank you Michael for saving me the embarrassment of posting a much longer version of what you have said. *My* interest in ballast is for use during short paddles. I have yet to leave without flares, p.f.d., p.f. dry/wet suit/top, radio, spare paddle, knife, etc... They just don't weigh that much, and neither do I... I like my bigger boat! Frankly it's the most beautiful thing I own and that in its self is worth taking the effort required to allow it to perform at it's best. True I consider "big water" to be Lake Washington for now, and some might say my boat is over-kill <shrug> Harley riders didn't like my CX-500 either... FWIW, I *do* have different boats [Caspia, Loon, Pirouette S <sp?> Katahdin [canoe] and the Pursuit-the one I'm fondest of all, I also gave my Kyook Plus to my S.O. for X-mas] and am not really willing to part with any of them as they each serve their own purposes. snip-------> >Ralph has a very good point, to which I'll raise two exceptions. You may have a >boat that's perfect when loaded with gear, but just too tender when you're in >it alone. Or perhaps your double rides too high when you're soloing it, or >maybe you need ballast to balance that double when one cockpit is empty. > >The other is the point Hutchinson makes, that ballast may be useful if you want >to pursue a lot of hands-off activity, like photography or fishing. In that >case some lead may just make sense. Thanks y'all... I do learn a lot here... Tom Weese Kirkland, WA. Three left turns often make a right... <http://www.isomedia.com/homes/gadfly/> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
I think we are taking the wrong approach here...instead of putting lead ballast in the boat, lets put it in the paddles. I'm sure your all aware of taking a couple of forks and sticking them in a cork with a pin in the bottom...by dropping the GG, the cork appears to balance on the pin... If we added 40 or 50 lbs of lead to each paddle, when conditions get rough, just drop those paddles below the waterline, hang on tight and Ta Da! Instant stability..... Think of those great muscles you'll be building up with those lead paddles.....throw away that paddle float but make sure you have a good tether! cya Bob Denton Vice President Undersea Breathing Systems bob_at_dnax.com http://www.dnax.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
>From Tom, and <chopped - like a Harley> >and the Pursuit-the one I'm fondest of all, --------------------------------------------- who makes the Pursuit and what are its general specs? i wonder if the discussion is leading towards a removable seat with a weighted bottom. mass of wt selected for the particular day's conditions/needs. it will be interesting to read how you outfit your boat... and how it feels on the water. bye bye bliven in the woods today, frogs were singing... spring is coming... i can't wait. in the trees, 8 eagles... 4 adults...4 yearlings... on the ground... owl pellets. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 10:29 PM 2/14/98 -0500, Larry Bliven wrote: >who makes the Pursuit and what are its general specs? Northwest Kayaks makes the Pursuit, I'll post the spec's on my page-Seems I bumped [well... I had to go over to the factory and actually "pester" him a bit :-/] into letting me put page with this info, and a link to his page. Should have it up Sunday evening... > i wonder if the discussion is leading towards a removable seat with a >weighted bottom. mass of wt selected for the particular day's >conditions/needs. it will be interesting to read how you outfit your >boat... and how it feels on the water. Heh! <scratching my head> it's an idea no? Right now I'm leaning toward [no pun intended] the lead shot [BTW, at my gun shop of choice I think 25lbs went for about $20] in a PVC tube. My subscription to Sea Kayaker lapsed so I'd been buying it at a local magazine shop, *they* got into some problem with the distributor, so it was only yesterday [at Kayak Pursuits/NWK] I got my hands on Dec. and Feb.'s edition---plenty of good stuff in the fitting article<!> I agree with others on this list that Ken Rasmussen did a wonderful job there... Take care, Three left turns often make a right... <http://www.isomedia.com/homes/gadfly/> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; > I have been following this ballast discussion with great interest. It > makes me feel pretty dumb. I keep asking myself why anyone would want > to add 30 pounds or more of dead weight to their boat that needs to be > hefted with every launching or takeout as well as propelled through the > water with every paddle stroke. Wouldn't it be better to get a boat > that is sufficiently stable by design for your paddling skills and you > individual sense of comfort regarding touchiness and stability of the > boat? If one can't handle paddling a certain boat comfortably and > within one's skills then adding weight seems a weird approach. I can > see it if you bought the boat, find it too tippy and then rather than > buy another boat pasting in some lead, tying down water bags, whatever. (SNIP) This ties in with what Dana wrote regarding boat size. Boats simply aren't sold well and the bigger is better (and sometimes, narrower is better) philosophy is pushed because it is so easy to sell to customers. For the vast majority of paddlers, a boat with enough designed in stability to provide comfortable stress free paddling is far better than a less stable high performance boat but they have a down side too. If we consider just the stability issue it is easy to see that people will feel more comfortable in a properly loaded kayak due to the added stability of gear etc. The problem arises when they venture out lightly loaded and unaware that the characteristics of their boat are now significantly altered. If the critical conditions are encountered the mix is right for an accident and the paddler, is unaware that he or she has done something wrong. >From a strictly design standpoint the problem is that boats are not sold with a displacement range. i.e. a range of displacement at which stability and performance are optimized. Few sales people and even fewer paddlers understand or even know about the concept. For years I have argued with Sea Kayaker Magazine that they should test boats at the designed displacement but they persist in doing a full range. How many can read the stability curves and recognize that a boat is either under of over loaded for a specific type of paddling. Because so many people buy the "wrong" boat it is probably worthwhile knowing how to improve things even if it does mean doing something that isn't really optimal. There is a parallel with ships. Occasionally a ship has to move in ballast condition i.e. unloaded and with water pumped aboard to provide stability and proper trim. Works pretty well until they pump the filthy water out. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
For my canoe I use a set of self-adjusting ballasts. Each moves separately, and will move lower in the boat and more toward the centre of the boat in rougher water. Each weighs about 8 lbs. One's name is Merlin, the other's name is Morrigan, and they purr quite a bit. Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Cats on board a kayak are a cool thing to have, especially if you also have rats on board. Now that would present an interesting scenerio of shifting ballast. %^) Cheers, Philip Richard Culpeper wrote: > For my canoe I use a set of self-adjusting ballasts. Each moves > separately, and will move lower in the boat and more toward the centre > of the boat in rougher water. > > Each weighs about 8 lbs. One's name is Merlin, the other's name is > Morrigan, and they purr quite a bit. > > Richard Culpeper > www.geocities.com/~culpeper > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Philip Wylie wrote: > > Cats on board a kayak are a cool thing to have, especially if you > also have rats on board. Now that would present an interesting > scenerio of shifting ballast. %^) This reminds me of an experience I once had. I was paddling on the Hudson just north of New York City and waiting on a beach for the currents to shift to favor me. An old fellow in a canoe came by, spotted me and came ashore. He had a cat with him which he carried on to shore. The thing didn't seem too happy. I noticed the cat was a bit wet and I asked the fellow what happened to the poor creature. It seems he always keeps his cat tethered to his canoe. the fellow hadn't noticed the cat had fallen overboard and was being dragged along underwater by the tether! No, John, Dana, et al...he was not trolling for catfish. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > If we consider just the stability issue it is easy to see that people will > feel more comfortable in a properly loaded kayak due to the added stability > of gear etc. The problem arises when they venture out lightly loaded and > unaware that the characteristics of their boat are now significantly > altered. If the critical conditions are encountered the mix is right for an > accident and the paddler, is unaware that he or she has done something > wrong. What I am getting out of all this discussion is the following. Unless you are absolutely certain that you will just about always use a particular kayak loaded with lots of gear for camping or other uses (e.g. beer runs, smuggling Canadian ballast rock across the 49th parallel, etc.), it is best to buy the boat as if it were intended for day use only. You will always be able to take just about any day boat for at least a one-week camping trip. That is unless you weigh near the maximum payload for the boat, which in itself is not a good idea anyway. Even the smallest of good day paddling kayaks, I am thinking of the Feathercraft K-Light, can be used for a long camping trip by the average weight paddler. There is plenty of room underdeck for storing camping gear, food and water. I know I have done it and written about it and heard from others who have done the same. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
. > >What I am getting out of all this discussion is the following. Unless >you are absolutely certain that you will just about always use a >particular kayak loaded with lots of gear for camping or other uses >(e.g. beer runs, smuggling Canadian ballast rock across the 49th >parallel, etc.), it is best to buy the boat as if it were intended for >day use only. > >You will always be able to take just about any day boat for at least a >one-week camping trip. That is unless you weigh near the maximum >payload for the boat, which in itself is not a good idea anyway. Even >the smallest of good day paddling kayaks, I am thinking of the >Feathercraft K-Light, can be used for a long camping trip by the average >weight paddler. There is plenty of room underdeck for storing camping >gear, food and water. I know I have done it and written about it and >heard from others who have done the same. > >ralph diaz > ralph I agree with the day paddle boat idea with most paddlers, You could always pack like a back packer in the smallest kayak. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
>What I am getting out of all this discussion is the following. Unless >you are absolutely certain that you will just about always use a >particular kayak loaded with lots of gear for camping or other uses >(e.g. beer runs, smuggling Canadian ballast rock across the 49th >parallel, etc.), it is best to buy the boat as if it were intended for >day use only. I realize that the above may have been said in jest, but I think it may be worth making perfectly clear: SMUGGLING OF CANADIAN BALLAST ROCKS IS ILLEGAL. The US Coast Guard wants to be able to take their cut on all ballast rocks imported into the states. Furthermore the narcs consider genuine Canadian ballast rocks to be control substances. Appearantly when ground to a fine powder and inserted between the cheek and gums the rocks can induce a feeling of invulnerability to capsize. This halucination of the presence of sponsons has caused at least one known death and temporary insanity in many others. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks c/o Newfound Woodworks, RFD 2 Box 850, Bristol, NH 03222 (603) 744-6872 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Well I guess I can tell my story now. Last summer coming back from a trip to Canada we were held at the border for hours while the border guards searched our vehicle for Canadian ballast. Their suspicions were probably aroused by the kayaks on top of the car and the smug looks on our faces. Luckily, the dogs missed the cleverly disguised false gas tank (I misted it with just a hint of pepper spray). Nick Schade wrote: > I realize that the above may have been said in jest, but I think it may be > worth making perfectly clear: SMUGGLING OF CANADIAN BALLAST ROCKS IS > ILLEGAL ... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Keith Kaste said: >Well I guess I can tell my story now. Last summer coming back from a trip to >Canada we were held at the border for hours while the border guards searched >our vehicle for Canadian ballast. Their suspicions were probably aroused by >the kayaks on top of the car and the smug looks on our faces. Luckily, the >dogs missed the cleverly disguised false gas tank (I misted it with just a >hint >of pepper spray). I guess it's just as well they weren't using bears to sniff for contraband. Ron Johnson = rfred_at_mindspring.com "How every fool can play upon the word!" W. Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
At 10:31 AM 2/16/98 -5, Bob Denton wrote: >I think we are taking the wrong approach here...instead of putting >lead ballast in the boat, lets put it in the paddles. > >If we added 40 or 50 lbs of lead to each paddle, when conditions get >rough, just drop those paddles below the waterline, hang on tight >and Ta Da! Instant stability..... > >Think of those great muscles you'll be building up with those lead >paddles.....throw away that paddle float but make sure you have a >good tether! But if you fall out of the boat, I might recommend letting go of the paddle! <grin> Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >> >>John Winters wrote: >> >>> If we consider just the stability issue it is easy to see that people will >>> feel more comfortable in a properly loaded kayak due to the added stability >>> of gear etc. The problem arises when they venture out lightly loaded and >>> unaware that the characteristics of their boat are now significantly >>> altered. If the critical conditions are encountered the mix is right for an >>> accident and the paddler, is unaware that he or she has done something >>> wrong. >> >>What I am getting out of all this discussion is the following. Unless >>you are absolutely certain that you will just about always use a >>particular kayak loaded with lots of gear for camping or other uses >>(e.g. beer runs, smuggling Canadian ballast rock across the 49th >>parallel, etc.), it is best to buy the boat as if it were intended for >>day use only. agreed, and the same rule really applies to canoes as well. buy it for the most common/often use, and realize you'll sacrifice _something_ when you use it for those other things. >> >>You will always be able to take just about any day boat for at least a >>one-week camping trip. That is unless you weigh near the maximum >>payload for the boat, which in itself is not a good idea anyway. Even >>the smallest of good day paddling kayaks, I am thinking of the >>Feathercraft K-Light, can be used for a long camping trip by the average >>weight paddler. There is plenty of room underdeck for storing camping >>gear, food and water. I know I have done it and written about it and >>heard from others who have done the same. >> >>ralph diaz >> >>-- what is the "average weight" kayaker?? i would have said they weigh less than i, but there sure have been a lot of posts from us 200+ pounders [91kg]!! mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: Now I lay me down to sleep I pray the double lock will keep; May no brick through the window break, And, no one rob me till I awake. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
>what is the "average weight" kayaker?? i would have said they weigh less >than i, but there sure have been a lot of posts from us 200+ pounders >[91kg]!! > >mark > You are a light weight eh, got you bet by 30 or MORE pounds. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; (SNIP) > > What I am getting out of all this discussion is the following. Unless > you are absolutely certain that you will just about always use a > particular kayak loaded with lots of gear for camping or other uses > (e.g. beer runs, smuggling Canadian ballast rock across the 49th > parallel, etc.), it is best to buy the boat as if it were intended for > day use only. (SNIP) I think this is a reasonable approach. Performance evaluations show you can exceed the designed displacement by more than 10% without any noticeable difference in performance. After experimenting with this a bit in real life I concluded that most boats were too large for most paddling. It is, however, difficult to convince customers that they really should have smaller boat. Cheers John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net ***************************************************************************
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