In following the posts on this topic it came to me in one of those blinding flashes of over simplification that the way to avoid problems in a club is to properly define the purpose of the club. For instance, suppose the Sink or Swim Kayak Club was formed to provide social events for kayakers, serve as an introduction service for paddling partners and a source of paddling information. It would do no formal instruction and set no paddling rules other than no adult member would be allowed to molest the young boys or girls at a club sponsored nude swimming party. Club trips would not exist. Rather, the newsletter would announce that; "Jackie Fenton will be paddling to Hawaii tomorrow afternoon and welcomes company". Or Richard Culpeper is going to practice his rolls next month at the week Waterloo Sewage Lagoon and welcomes fellow paddlers for a fun day. These are clearly individual activities. If the club has no safety rules and makes it clear that it is only there for social events and to advertise member activities it surely cannot be held responsible for anything outside its mandate. Club dynamics vary from club to club but it seems that the reason so many people don't join clubs is not because the membership is a clique or even bureaucratic and overly regulated but because there simply isn't any need (on an individual basis) to belong or participate in club activities. The boats are portable, the clubs usually have no facility for social gatherings, and the only thing that might tie them together - paddling - does not require a club membership to do. Contrast the sea kayaker with the sprint racer. Can't be done without the clubs organising things and training requires coaches, facilities etc.. That the clubs become a centre of social activity as well also nurtures growth. In Britain the clubs are rather strong because they have strong social ties as well a powerful influence on paddling through the BCU. Whether one likes the model or not is not a determination of its success. Personally I found Dennis Adams post a trifle patronising and offensive. To base any assumptions about what Canadians are like on the "few Canadians" he knows is just a bit much and to suggest that working co-operatively to reach a goal is in any way sheep like is fatuous. If one does not want to offend one needs to choose words more carefully. Everything that Dennis says about small headed club type can also be said about rugged individualists that don't belong to clubs. Some are so small headed that clubs won't even have them. Clubs have no monopoly on jerks. As for cliques, by definition those who paddle with the same people all the time form a clique and there is no law that cliques must belong to clubs. Perhaps Dennis has confused the visibility of clubs with omnipresence. It is odd that a clique within a club is considered in a negative light but a clique outside the club is just a bunch of friends having a good time together. Actually I don't see all that much difference between what the WCA does and the Rocky Mountain Canoe Club - except that there might be more of us. We also have members who are much like Dennis. Skilled. eager to share their knowledge, fun to be with, active in club activities, people who believe in instruction but also believe in learning by doing etc.. etc.. I, of course, am not one of them possibly because I hold dual citizenship and simply can't decide whether I am an individual asshole or a collective one. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I'll stick my oar in here, albeit a much shorter one than the prolix folks I follow: If I lived in a metro area, I'd join a club, mainly to meet people so I could travel as a group to places nice to paddle. I don't live in a metro area, and I have tons of nice paddling water within 5 - 25 miles of my house. I paddle with my friends and acquaintances, almost exclusively. We practice rescue and safety techniques as best a bunch of hicks can (assisted by our local paddling shop -- very professionally staffed, BTW), with the now-and-then seminar conducted by a wandering paddle expert. We don't know everything there is to know about group safety, but we're pretty good at dealing with adversity and unplanned events. We also realize that life is uncertain, sometimes Ma Nature will just take over, and that risk is involved in what we do. We minimize the risk best we can, and accept the risk that remains. Nobody has or asks for waivers, though one of my main paddling buddies is a retired attorney. So, while I don't feel I need a club, I surely understand and endorse the need for clubs, expecially where the "ethic" is different than it is out here. The folks who take on the task of running "good" clubs are saints. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Sarah M Ohmann <ohman001_at_maroon.tc.umn.edu> > Hi Folks- > > I have been thinking about Richard Culpeper's post on club > safety and trip leadership for the last few days. Our club (Twin > Cities Sea Kayaking Club- Minneapolis) is also grappling with the same > issues raised, partly due to the fact that in the last three years our > club has grown from five people who knew each other pretty well to about > sixty (I think membership just about doubled last year). While some of > these points have been discussed in a general way during the last few > weeks, I would like to hear specifically from members of other clubs on > how they have dealt with the following questions- > > Are trip leaders for your club strictly organizers or are they expected to > be responsible for safety of participants? What are their > responsibilities in the event of an emergency? So that no one got the impression that one single person was responsible for everyone's safety, my club changed the title from trip leader to trip coordinator. > What, if any, are the requirements in terms of skills, training or > certifications for trip leaders? For participants? Willingness to coordinate a trip and attend. :-) > Does your club have any sort of process for approving trips or trip > leaders? Since we did not have trip "leaders" ... no. If someone was willing to organize a trip, everyone said "YIPPEEE!" But we were an informal lot :-) The club membership was good size, however the actual participation was usually relatively small. Some "popular" trips would be limited to a number that the coordinator felt most comfortable with. > Do you have trip ratings such as beginning, intermediate and advanced? If > so, how do you define the different ratings? As the club grew into a sea of unfamiliar faces, most club events began to be of a beginner's level. This gave everyone a chance to meet, get to know each other and become more familiar with the skills (or lack) of the new paddlers. Challenging trips were private events. <snip> > Our club is incorporated, we do have a liability waiver (for what it's > worth) and since we are a chapter of the ACA (American Canoe Association) > our trips are covered by their liability insurance. But some are > concerned that we have not covered our butts legally, and that safety > rules may be required for this reason in addition to ensuring the safety > of our club members. Is there any information on this, maybe from clubs > who do other activities such as ww kayaking or mountaineering? > > Personally, I worry that too much obsessing about liability will result > in no club activities at all. But then, I have no good information on how > much of a concern lawsuits should be. Are there any examples of clubs or > club members being sued? Are there any cases of club activities resulting > in fatalities in sea kayaking? I sincerely hope the answer to these > question is "no"! I think this is a real possibility. This fear, founded or not, tends to grow as the club expands with unfamiliar faces. When you are with your long-time friends, law suits are not part of the "fun equation." When I first joined my club, the only requirement for trip coordinator/organizer was a willingness to put it together. Then the more the club grew and the more we began to talk about waivers, law suits, ACA insurance (I don't know if it was ever determined if non-ACA club members and visitors were covered by ACA) the less members seemed to be willing to host a trip. But none of us had any information about anyone being sued because of an incident on a club outing. I still have not heard of a paddling club being sued. This has been discussed on rec.boats.paddle, numerous listservers, and all anyone seems to have are ninth, maybe tenth-hand information... maybe ("Well.. I heard someone mention that over in another state someone had heard that there used to be a club where someone supposedly..."). I think safety awareness classes, videos, books for the club library, club presentations are just plain good moves on the part of a club for its community. Especially stressing the individual's responsibilty for their own safety. Not because of the liability issue, but just because passing on information and knowledge and experience is always a good thing. One of the nice benefits of a club *is* its numbers. With large groups, you can get together and organize a major class in swift-water rescue where you can bring in experts (which we did), safety and paddling seminars and workshops, CPR classes, expert instructor lessons, etc. I would guess most if not all clubs at some point ponder and even struggle over these issues. It's part of the growth, I think. But it's the growth that can get you to some pretty neat places... more new paddling buddies, new learning opportunities, new trips, new insights, and really big pot luck Christmases. :-) Cheers, Jackie The Club Rolling Contest ! /| / | / | / | \ | +----+ \ /| | 10 | d/ _at_) +--_at_)+ ,sSSs, _at_----+ \\ sSs|| )\w/( ,sSS..)/| 10 | &&'",o \\s(..s| <<..> sSSS_v)/+----+ (_at___y____ \s(o_s|s )<*> sSS[(\ ] /[_|_]-+-_at_)-+ [ | ] <(_/+o-o-+ 'sS[_\\] \[_|_] | 10 | [_|__] \--+---| K9+|------'--o)- -------------')-+----+----'----`----------/ ~~ ~~ ~~+----+~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ~ __ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ _ woof woof / / /`"a-o / /\.o. ~~ ~~~ ~~ <(_____/( ),_c ~~ / > `v_) ___ ~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~ / /_/'---,}====<___) ~ ~~~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~ \/ ~ ~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~ ~~ ~~~~ ______ ___ /\ _ ____ ~~~ ~ ~~~ (__\/__) ~~~ (___>=\=(`v'_`--')=====<____) /[ ]\ \ \(.o.)' \[_xx_]/ \ \" " ~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~ \ ^ ~ ~~ ~ \_\ ( .7 ~" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie- Thanks for your response, and great ascii art as usual. One situation that we may be faced with as our club grows is beginners who would like to lead trips that are beyond their abilities as individual paddlers, let alone as leaders. Does your club have a way to deal with this? This possibility was raised by a member of another sea kayaking club in the area who did have this problem come up last year... Thanks, Sarah > So that no one got the impression that one single person was responsible > for everyone's safety, my club changed the title from trip leader to trip > coordinator. > > > What, if any, are the requirements in terms of skills, training or > > certifications for trip leaders? For participants? > > Willingness to coordinate a trip and attend. :-) > > > Does your club have any sort of process for approving trips or trip > > leaders? > > Since we did not have trip "leaders" ... no. If someone was willing > to organize a trip, everyone said "YIPPEEE!" But we were an informal > lot :-) The club membership was good size, however the actual participation > was usually relatively small. Some "popular" trips would be limited to a > number that the coordinator felt most comfortable with. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> From ohman001_at_maroon.tc.umn.edu Thu Mar 5 06:41 PST 1998 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:37:40 -0600 (CST) > From: Sarah M Ohmann <ohman001_at_maroon.tc.umn.edu> > > Jackie- > > Thanks for your response, and great ascii art as usual. One situation > that we may be faced with as our club grows is beginners who would like to > lead trips that are beyond their abilities as individual paddlers, let > alone as leaders. Does your club have a way to deal with this? This > possibility was raised by a member of another sea kayaking club in the > area who did have this problem come up last year... Hi Sarah, What did the other club do? How was it a problem? The club of which I was a member did not have leaders. This might seem picky, but for a reason, we referred to trip hosts as coordinators. I was elected official club trip coordinator after only about four months of membership. I'm not saying that how my club went about its business should be the accepted practice. It just happened to be what we did and it worked for us. I wanted to paddle... *bad*. Not enough club trips were scheduled. So to get to paddle with experienced paddlers where I could learn more, I offered to host trips. This is how I became club trip coordinator, someone who made campground reservations, set up a date and time to meet, made sure there were enough shuttle vehicles, someone to collect camping and/or food fees, gather and distribute directions, and basically, someone who just started the ball rolling for a group of people to get together to paddle. As I said, we were an informal lot. :-) But gosh did we have fun! As the club grew and we were joined by an ACA officer who wanted a more rigid structuring of club events and began to warn us about liability and tell us how much we needed insurance and we should join ACA so we would be covered, much began to change. We realized there were topics of which we weren't aware and being aware was probably a good thing. The more we became aware, the more the focus of the club began to change from strictly social to more of instructional and safety awareness. Also, more trips were scheduled outside the club. Talk of liability does seem to have its impact, even though we knew of no cases whatsoever of paddling clubs being or having been sued. I still don't (I feel a need to say this often :-). Trip hosts/coordinators are hard to come by. It would be a shame to discourage someone who is eager to put together a trip. Even with almost no experience under my paddle, the trips I hosted turned out to be great fun (great company). We used our heads, did a lot of scouting, always had someone more experienced along and learned a lot. Some clubs announce non-club sponsored trips in a separate section of the club newsletter along with a disclaimer. This might seem to contradict all the safety speech, but I don't think so. While they can't hold everyone's hands at all times, clubs can go a long way in offering safety awareness training and instruction when beginners come knocking at the door. As well as offer a few old-timers (that would like to learn) new technique and an opportunity to find more paddling partners. It would be interesting to read how other clubs view club-sponsored events as well as handle club member events where the club does not want to be considered official sponsor for whatever reasons. Cheers, Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie- I guess what I was trying to get at, not very successfully, was this: if a club has organizers/coordinators rather than trip leaders, in part because the club doesn't want to be responsible or liable in the same ways that a commercial guiding company would be, how much control does the club have over what goes on in trips? Are there basic safety guidelines that all trips must meet? If a club has guidelines at all, does that imply some responsibility? Sorry for beating this to death but we have a meeting coming up on this very subject in two days. > It would be interesting to read how other clubs view club-sponsored > events as well as handle club member events where the club does not > want to be considered official sponsor for whatever reasons. I agree, and hope that any other club members that are out there will put their $0.02-worth in. Sarah > > Thanks for your response, and great ascii art as usual. One situation > > that we may be faced with as our club grows is beginners who would like to > > lead trips that are beyond their abilities as individual paddlers, let > > alone as leaders. Does your club have a way to deal with this? This > > possibility was raised by a member of another sea kayaking club in the > > area who did have this problem come up last year... > > What did the other club do? How was it a problem? > > The club of which I was a member did not have leaders. This might > seem picky, but for a reason, we referred to trip hosts as coordinators. > I was elected official club trip coordinator after only about four > months of membership. I'm not saying that how my club went about > its business should be the accepted practice. It just happened to be > what we did and it worked for us. I wanted to paddle... *bad*. Not > enough club trips were scheduled. So to get to paddle with experienced > paddlers where I could learn more, I offered to host trips. This is > how I became club trip coordinator, someone who made campground > reservations, set up a date and time to meet, made sure there were > enough shuttle vehicles, someone to collect camping and/or food fees, > gather and distribute directions, and basically, someone who just > started the ball rolling for a group of people to get together to > paddle. As I said, we were an informal lot. :-) But gosh did we > have fun! > > As the club grew and we were joined by an ACA officer who wanted a > more rigid structuring of club events and began to warn us about > liability and tell us how much we needed insurance and we should join > ACA so we would be covered, much began to change. We realized there > were topics of which we weren't aware and being aware was probably a > good thing. The more we became aware, the more the focus of the > club began to change from strictly social to more of instructional > and safety awareness. Also, more trips were scheduled outside the > club. Talk of liability does seem to have its impact, even though we > knew of no cases whatsoever of paddling clubs being or having been > sued. I still don't (I feel a need to say this often :-). > > Trip hosts/coordinators are hard to come by. It would be a shame > to discourage someone who is eager to put together a trip. Even > with almost no experience under my paddle, the trips I hosted turned > out to be great fun (great company). We used our heads, did a lot of > scouting, always had someone more experienced along and learned > a lot. Some clubs announce non-club sponsored trips in a separate > section of the club newsletter along with a disclaimer. > > This might seem to contradict all the safety speech, but I don't > think so. While they can't hold everyone's hands at all times, clubs > can go a long way in offering safety awareness training and > instruction when beginners come knocking at the door. As well as > offer a few old-timers (that would like to learn) new technique and > an opportunity to find more paddling partners. > > Cheers, > > Jackie > > _ _ _ > _ _ \\ / \0/ \ > / \0/ \ \\ " > " `\ > ,sSSs,\, > )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) > <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ > )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ > <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) > \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') > ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ > o \ > o \\ o o > \\ o > o ` > (\ o > o >jf:-) o > (/ o > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Some time ago someone [was it you Jackie?] gave an address that had a whole bunch of kayak graphics which were, I think, public domain. Does anyone have the address? Can the graphics be used? I'm toying with doing a web page. Thanks John Winskill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sarah wrote: > I guess what I was trying to get at, not very successfully, was this: > > if a club has organizers/coordinators rather than trip leaders, in part > because the club doesn't want to be responsible or liable in the same > ways that a commercial guiding company would be, how much control does the > club have over what goes on in trips? Others have described the horrific dynamics of trying not to "regulate" group paddles when members of a club do not know each other well enough to know each other's capabilities. I think the bottom line is that somebody (usually the trip coordinator) will end up "responsible" for an uncooperative or weaker paddler on group paddling trips. What can the "coordinator" do -- abandon the poor sop? That means, on a defacto basis, someone becomes the fall guy -- no authority to decide if an individual can go, but the responsibility when things go sour. I would NEVER put myself in that position. I have buckets of experience leading trips on the snow (XC-skiing, climbing), and occasionally have been put in the "no-win" situation described above (long story). Now, I get really "agro" when someone tries to cajole me into "leading" a group whose composition I can not control. Not a chance. Life is too short. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sarah wrote; > One situation >that we may be faced with as our club grows is beginners who would like to >lead trips that are beyond their abilities as individual paddlers, let >alone as leaders. Does your club have a way to deal with this? This >possibility was raised by a member of another sea kayaking club in the >area who did have this problem come up last year... Despite more laws and rules than anyone can ever read people still break them or ignore them. Like locks that keep the honest people honest, club rules (I believe) keep the conscientious people conscientious and form a statement of the club's principles. Do they change behaviour? What I have always feared about a club passing judgement on a person's ability is that it implies that the club knows something about the topic (we have heard this stated elsewhere) and, more importantly, are willing to take responsibility. Unfortunately the one skill that is most important - good judgement - is not easily measured or evaluated. I would guess that most of us have encountered so called experts that were too stupid to pour piss out of a boot with directions on the heel. Their certificates actually make them more dangerous because people tend grant them more credibility than they deserve. Peer pressure in a club seems to be effective. The word gets out on paddler X and people shun them. In the WCA (although no one will formally admit it) there is a kind of black list of people you don't want on your trips and the underground network does a pretty good job of spreading the word on the high risk paddlers. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>What I have always feared about a club passing judgement on a person's >ability is that it implies that the club knows something about the topic >(we have heard this stated elsewhere) and, more importantly, are willing to >take responsibility. Unfortunately the one skill that is most important - >good judgement - is not easily measured or evaluated. I would guess that >most of us have encountered so called experts that were too stupid to pour >piss out of a boot with directions on the heel. Their certificates actually >make them more dangerous because people tend grant them more credibility >than they deserve. > >Cheers, >John Winters Ok John I was not going to mention this buuuuutttt. Saturday leading a canoe and Kayak trip for a club I belonged to. One lady calls that does not paddle often and wants to go on the trip with her son. They will have to rent canoe to go. Another member called and had just bought a Kayak on Thursday, and had not paddled except for a hour. This trip is only 10 miles round-trip, the first-half mile is across an Inlet that can get rough at times. The currents are swift and possible 2 to 4 ft. chop. Other days it can be smooth as a lake. I will not know the conditions till we'd get there. Out of the 8 to 10 people going 3 have good rescue skills. The others so so. I explained the possible conditions to the people and then let them decide whether to go or not. All decided they would go. I do have a backup trip launching from the same place if the weather doesn't go our way. What I am worried about it is the return trip once we are committed, we're paddling to an island. Everyone will wear their PFD's on the trip. The sticking point is do I decide that they are not qualified to go, and take the responsibility of deciding when they are qualified or do I let them go and take the responsibility for letting them go. I know I can rescue them if only one has a problem but if two or three do I am in a pickle. I will not take them out if the conditions are bad to start with. I have never refused anyone from traveling with me. I have told some, including these two that I did not know if their skills were adequate. I do teach kayaking and a little canoeing at clinics for the two clubs I belonged to. I will go through the standard rescue skills at the start of the paddle, I will stick close to these new Paddlers during the trip. So what do you think? Stupid, dumb, helpful, brave, or willing. Or all the above, none of the above. In all my years of canoeing and kayaking I have not lost any one yet, and have coached people through some dangerous situations. I am open to opinions or flames but hopfully mostly opinions. Well let's hear it. PS. I have nothing to lose( materially ) except my Kayak and nobody is getting that, and by the time I read your responses the trip will probably be over. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Sarah M Ohmann wrote: >> >>Hi Folks- >> >>I have been thinking about Richard Culpeper's post on club >>safety and trip leadership for the last few days. Our club (Twin >>Cities Sea Kayaking Club- Minneapolis) is also grappling with the same >>issues raised, partly due to the fact that in the last three years our >>club has grown from five people who knew each other pretty well to about >>sixty (I think membership just about doubled last year). While some of >>these points have been discussed in a general way during the last few >>weeks, I would like to hear specifically from members of other clubs on >>how they have dealt with the following questions- >> >>Are trip leaders for your club strictly organizers or are they expected to >>be responsible for safety of participants? What are their >>responsibilities in the event of an emergency? we have no "leaders" they are "coordinators. our club waiver [signed when you join, and agin on each trip] are explicite about each person must take care of themselves, yadda yadda yadda >> >>What, if any, are the requirements in terms of skills, training or >>certifications for trip leaders? For participants? coordinators: no requirements. i have even coordinated one trip at a location _i_ had never been to!! participants: that's a little harder. nothing "formally" required, except they have the ability/skills to participate without being a hinderance. we also have "mentor" trips, where it _is_ expected people will swim, etc, and we try and have enough skilled folks to help the lessor skilled folks. the idea there is to help people climb the "skills ladder" i have backed out of more than one trip at the halfway point, due to some form of unfavorable conditions or another. i've had friends on my trips that have decided the conditions were not right for them either. >> >>Does your club have any sort of process for approving trips or trip >>leaders? nope. we do have a "trip planning meeting" in the spring [in 2 weeks] where we plan the majority of the clubs trips for at least the first half of the season. so we meet the trip coordinators there. and they are usually the same people year after year. >> >>Do you have trip ratings such as beginning, intermediate and advanced? If >>so, how do you define the different ratings? for us that's easy. most are river trips and we use the standard "class I-VI" river ratings. and then when it's really time for the trip, the coordinator should know if the water is high or low, and what effect that will have on their trip. >>To answer Richard's question, our six member board of directors is >>currently considering forming a safety committee. Initially, at least, >>the policies that need to be worked out seem too complex to leave to one >>person. >> >>Some of the discussion about safety rules and/or guidelines in >>our club has to do with liability issues. So these next questions are >>for any attorneys on the list, or any other clubs that have >>experience with the legal aspects of club safety. >> >>Our club is incorporated, we do have a liability waiver (for what it's >>worth) and since we are a chapter of the ACA (American Canoe Association) i'm not a lawyer, but in the law class i took in college, and the general consensus is: a waiver is worth what _you_ claim it is, to an extent. i'll explain. [see our waiver at: http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc/waiver.html if you first have a good waiver, it can be ruined by you saying "here's our lousy waiver" which indicates _you_ don't believe in it... >>our trips are covered by their liability insurance. But some are >>concerned that we have not covered our butts legally, and that safety >>rules may be required for this reason in addition to ensuring the safety >>of our club members. Is there any information on this, maybe from clubs >>who do other activities such as ww kayaking or mountaineering? >> >>Personally, I worry that too much obsessing about liability will result >>in no club activities at all. But then, I have no good information on how >>much of a concern lawsuits should be. Are there any examples of clubs or >>club members being sued? Are there any cases of club activities resulting >>in fatalities in sea kayaking? I sincerely hope the answer to these >>question is "no"! >> >>I would really appreciate any feedback from other clubs who have faced or >>are facing these questions. >> >>Thanks! >>Sarah Ohmann >> >> mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: "When you are in it up to your ears, keep your mouth shut." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dana wrote; (SNIP of trip description and people) >What I am worried about it is the return >trip once we are committed, we're paddling to an island. Everyone will >wear their PFD's on the trip. The sticking point is do I decide that they >are not qualified to go, and take the responsibility of deciding when they >are qualified or do I let them go and take the responsibility for letting >them go. Do you want to put yourself in position where you will have to rescue them and maybe fail? You know there is risk butt you are confident you can take it because of your skills despite the possibility that it can get out of hand. Suppose you couldn't "guarantee" safety. What would you do then"? Are you sure you can "guarantee" safety? >I know I can rescue them if only one has a problem but if two or three do I >am in a pickle. I will not take them out if the conditions are bad to >start with. I have never refused anyone from traveling with me. I have >told some, including these two that I did not know if their skills were >adequate. How do you know that you can rescue them in all conditions? Suppose you have a problem get sick etc.? Maybe the poor paddlers are going because they feel you will save them if they get into trouble. Is that fair to you? >I do teach kayaking and a little canoeing at clinics for the two clubs I >belonged to. I will go through the standard rescue skills at the start of >the paddle, I will stick close to these new Paddlers during the trip. >So what do you think? Stupid, dumb, helpful, brave, or willing. >Or all the above, none of the above. >In all my years of canoeing and kayaking I have not lost any one yet, and >have coached people through some dangerous situations. I am open to >opinions or flames but hopfully mostly opinions. I don't feel anyone should exceed their abilities. This is a voluntary situation and it is profoundly unfair of the poorer paddlers to place you in a position where you must take responsibility for them. On the other hand, if they are paying you, it is your call an tey havea right to expect you to provide for their safety. Maybe that's the question to ask yourself, would I be willing to take these people out for pay if my insurance had just been cancelled? If they were on my trip I would suggest that it was over their heads but if they insisted on going I would tell them that if I got hurt rescuing them they would be sued by a lawyer who has no trouble at all in getting blood out of a turnip and their families heirs or assigns would be eating Kraft dinner for the next five decades. If that didn't scare them off then I hope they have a good time. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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