Have just visited the Givens life raft site http://www.givensliferafts.com/graphics_plus/raft.html It has a nice graphic showing a raft capsizing at sea as well as the Givens raft staying upright. Very impressive. Imagine the safety of a similar system that could be deployed from a sea kayak. Such a system would turn the kayak in to a stable platform that would have minimal drift and would allow you to bundle up inside the boat and even sleep in safety. It may even be possible to provide a canopy that would shield you from the elements and allow you to sit upright. I know that some readers are bored with the discussion on safety but these discussions force us to look at the subject carefully and do more homework. Were it not for these discussions I would never have thought to search life raft information to see what it had to offer. I have no connection with Givens or any other life raft company. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: [snip] > Such a system would turn the kayak in to a stable platform that would have > minimal drift and would allow you to bundle up inside the boat and even > sleep in safety. It may even be possible to provide a canopy that would > shield you from the elements and allow you to sit upright. > Most kayaks do not allow a paddle to bundle inside the hull, it is a trade off between having bulkheads and flotation bags, or letting enough space inside for the paddler. The Kotzebue Island people did not have floatbags, hatches, nor bulkheads, and they relied on being able to get into their high volume kayaks to do their famous roll. The Kotzebue roll does not depend on a hip snap, but just on a low strength paddle movement. It is probably a very reliable roll as it does not depend on technique, but just on the aligment of the paddler's and the kayak's center of gravity which is automatic when the paddler gets inside the hull. Thus, those paddlers had various benefits, enough volume in their kayaks to carry their entire family including the dog, enough space to take a nap, a reliable roll technique, and a capsule in which they could get into for more than 10 minutes while they waited for help. Now days, only folding kayaks have enough volume to paddle a la Kotzebue, as long as a similar paddling jacket/spray skirt is used. Just thinking in loud voice, - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio wrote; (SNIP) -->Most kayaks do not allow a paddle to bundle inside the hull, it is a trade >off between having bulkheads and flotation bags, or letting enough space >inside for the paddler. This is true. Most modern sea kayaks are designed for day paddling or coastwise paddling where there is little or no need to spend a night at sea. This would make an interesting thread. What are the realistic limits of the typical modern seakayak. If we discount the stunt paddlers who thrive on doing the ridiculous with their boats, what are reasonable expectations for the boats? > >The Kotzebue Island people did not have floatbags, hatches, nor bulkheads, >and they relied on being able to get into their high volume kayaks to >do their famous roll. It might be worth a visit to Peter Carter's web site to see what he has to say about bulkheads. It goes against the common wisdom so should start some thought. (SNIP) > >Thus, those paddlers had various benefits, enough volume in their kayaks to >carry their entire family including the dog, enough space to take a nap, >a reliable roll technique, and a capsule in which they could get into >for more than 10 minutes while they waited for help. > >Now days, only folding kayaks have enough volume to paddle a la Kotzebue, >as long as a similar paddling jacket/spray skirt is used. This is also true and a good reason for people doing longish trips to consider folding boats over the typical solo hard-shell or to use a smallish hard-shell tandem for solo long distance paddling. In either case, the need for a low CG and possibly self righting is important. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On 11 Mar 98, John Winters wrote: > This is also true and a good reason for people doing longish trips > to consider folding boats over the typical solo hard-shell or to use > a smallish hard-shell tandem for solo long distance paddling. In > either case, the need for a low CG and possibly self righting is > important. Last season, Necky had a promotional peicce that they had at a couple of the symposiums I attended. In it they features several "Expedition" type paddlers (of cource using necky boats). One feature was about a guy who paddled a Necky double - COMPLETLY outfitted - from somwhere on te West coast to Hawaii. I mean this guy had desalination units, and a list of other gadgets that I can't remember all of. He Made it, and it was an interesting story of a VERY long SOLO open water crossing. I wish I could find the brochure, but perhaps some of the Outfitters out there might have it around still, or someone else might remember the story and could better tell the story... Gregg Bolton gsb_at_ime.net http://w3.ime.net/~gsb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: >This is true. Most modern sea kayaks are designed for day paddling or >coastwise paddling where there is little or no need to spend a night at >sea. This would make an interesting thread. What are the realistic limits >of the typical modern seakayak. If we discount the stunt paddlers who >thrive on doing the ridiculous with their boats, what are reasonable >expectations for the boats? > Depends on the boats .... Vituddens produce a pretty radical kayak designed specifically for blue water crossings, with a canopy, and external floats, yes I'll call them floats :-), to enable sleeping in appropriate conditions. Details for those interested are at ... http://www.vitudden.com/kayaks.htm >It might be worth a visit to Peter Carter's web site to see what he has to >say about bulkheads. It goes against the common wisdom so should start some >thought. > I totally agree with Peter Carter's philosophy about sea kayak design. In the light of this discussion, it should be noted that these cockpit pods are designed to *minimise* cockpit volume - the idea being that there should be enough volume for your seat, legs and feet ... and no more ! My current boat's (Capella) only real fault is that the cockpit volume is enormous - the huge space forward of the pegs and between the back of the seat and the aft bulkhead means that completely emptying the boat needs a bilge pump, or careful packing out with drybags. This is related, but not necessarily relevant :-) - so my apologies for the forthcoming ramblings .... I have had a very passing interest in inuit kayak design for a while, but have always thought of innuit kayaks in Greenland, Alaska etc. I was therefore somewhat surprised when I read last week that a kayak arrived in Scotland, along the coast that I can see out of my window, circa 1730, complete with native paddler alive in the cockpit. I can't imagine what the local inhabitants made of this traveller, but the poor soul apparently died three days later, unable to communicate the circumstances that led him to a beach in Aberdeenshire. The boat is hanging on display in one of the University museums, and I couldn't wait to have a look. This boat is remarkable! This boat is *tiny*, (imagine a squirt sea kayak :-)), long, very narrow, with virtually no freeboard, and a cockpit coaming which looks like a child would have a hard time getting into - once in forget any leg room. The fact that its over 250 years old, and was paddled to a beach in Scotland by an inuit paddler is stunning. Whether he actually survived a journey from East Greenland as some suggest, or whether he escaped or was put off from a whaler, or whether he came from another destination is a mystery. There is some evidence that so called 'Fin-men' paddling and fishing from kayaks were fairly regularly sighted in the Orkney and Shetland Islands at this time (although again where they came from is a mystery). There are two other native kayaks in Aberdeen, which definately did come from whalers, and a fair bit of information in the literature and in the library special collections at the University. I'll do some research, and if anyone is interested I'll post my findings here. So John, perhaps low volume single kayaks have been doing ridiculous things for some time, and maybe a better question is what are reasonable expectations of the paddlers ? PS There was an article written in Sea Kayaker about the Scottish kayaks, which I haven't seen yet, a few years ago: Greenlanders paddle to Scotland?, "The Phantom Kayakers, A Scottish Mystery," John Heath, Sea Kayaker Summer 1987, page 15. If anyone knows anything more about the Scottish kayaks, or has a copy of this article that they could either zerox and snail mail, or scan, I would be extremely interested in reading it. Cheers Colin ______________________________________________________ Dr Colin Calder Centre for CBL in Land Use and Environmental Sciences (CLUES) MacRobert Building, Aberdeen University, Aberdeen, AB24 5UA, UK, Scotland ______________________________________________________ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Gregg Bolton wrote: >> >>On 11 Mar 98, John Winters wrote: >> >>> This is also true and a good reason for people doing longish trips >>> to consider folding boats over the typical solo hard-shell or to use >>> a smallish hard-shell tandem for solo long distance paddling. In >>> either case, the need for a low CG and possibly self righting is >>> important. >> >> Last season, Necky had a promotional peicce that they had at a >>couple of the symposiums I attended. In it they features several >>"Expedition" type paddlers (of cource using necky boats). One >>feature was about a guy who paddled a Necky double - COMPLETLY >>outfitted - from somwhere on te West coast to Hawaii. I mean this >>guy had desalination units, and a list of other gadgets that I can't >>remember all of. He Made it, and it was an interesting story of a >>VERY long SOLO open water crossing. >> >> I wish I could find the brochure, but perhaps some of the >>Outfitters out there might have it around still, or someone else >>might remember the story and could better tell the story... >>Gregg Bolton would that have been ed gillette [sp??]... he's got a shop in SoCal, if i remember right [i'm newish to the SK world!!] mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. -- A. Lincoln *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > John Winters wrote: > [snip] > > Such a system would turn the kayak in to a stable platform that would have > > minimal drift and would allow you to bundle up inside the boat and even > > sleep in safety. It may even be possible to provide a canopy that would > > shield you from the elements and allow you to sit upright. > > > Most kayaks do not allow a paddle to bundle inside the hull, it is a trade > off between having bulkheads and flotation bags, or letting enough space > inside for the paddler. > > The Kotzebue Island people did not have floatbags, hatches, nor bulkheads, > and (BIG SNIP) > > Thus, those paddlers had various benefits, enough volume in their kayaks to > carry their entire family including the dog, enough space to take a nap, > (SNIP) > > Now days, only folding kayaks have enough volume to paddle a la Kotzebue, > as long as a similar paddling jacket/spray skirt is used. > > Just thinking in loud voice, > > - Julio > > Thanks for the above! It helped me to remember a special summer in 86, going down the Yukon river. I had had WAY too much fun in Diamond tooth Girdie's, in Dawson. Not really up to finding a suitable campsite, I climbed into my folding kayak that was tied up at the dock. I just covered myself with a space blanket and the spray cover. Slept like a baby, rocked by the gentle river and didn't know a thing until morning, when I was awakened by the sounds of "tourist" and cameras! Guess they had never seen someone all snuggled up in a kayak before.. James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
There's sometimes a thin line between camping and vagrency heh heh... > Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > > > John Winters wrote: > > [snip] > > > Such a system would turn the kayak in to a stable platform that would have > > > minimal drift and would allow you to bundle up inside the boat and even > > > sleep in safety. It may even be possible to provide a canopy that would > > > shield you from the elements and allow you to sit upright. > > > > > Most kayaks do not allow a paddle to bundle inside the hull, it is a trade > > off between having bulkheads and flotation bags, or letting enough space > > inside for the paddler. > > > > The Kotzebue Island people did not have floatbags, hatches, nor bulkheads, > > and (BIG SNIP) > > > > Thus, those paddlers had various benefits, enough volume in their kayaks to > > carry their entire family including the dog, enough space to take a nap, > > (SNIP) > > > > Now days, only folding kayaks have enough volume to paddle a la Kotzebue, > > as long as a similar paddling jacket/spray skirt is used. > > > > Just thinking in loud voice, > > > > - Julio > > > > > > Thanks for the above! It helped me to remember a special summer in 86, > going down the Yukon river. > I had had WAY too much fun in Diamond tooth Girdie's, in Dawson. Not > really up to finding a suitable campsite, I climbed into my folding > kayak that was tied up at the dock. I just covered myself with a space > blanket and the spray cover. Slept like a baby, rocked by the gentle > river and didn't know a thing until morning, when I was awakened by the > sounds of "tourist" and cameras! > Guess they had never seen someone all snuggled up in a kayak before.. > > James > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > > Bob Denton Vice President Undersea Breathing Systems bob_at_dnax.com http://www.dnax.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Colin wrote; (SNIP) I looked in at the Vittuden site and the stabilizers are esssentially outriggers with what appears to be inflatable bags on the ends. I would question the value of such rig since it was a similar type of outrigger that Lindemann blamed for his capsizes on his crossing of the Atlantic. Certainly it woud have to be used in conjunction with a sea anchor to keep the boat head to wind. It is not a rig that I would trust at sea. (SNIP about Peter Carter's site) (SNIP of Inuit discovery of Scotland.) > There are two other native kayaks in Aberdeen, which >definately did come from whalers, and a fair bit of information in the >literature and in the library special collections at the University. I'll do >some research, and if anyone is interested I'll post my findings here. Some information on these boats is in John Brand's Little Kayak Books. >So John, perhaps low volume single kayaks have been doing ridiculous things >for some time, and maybe a better question is what are reasonable >expectations of the paddlers ? I suppose one could say that but then we are faced with rationalizing a crossing of the Pacific in a squirt boat. No doubt that the boat could make it. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "John Winters" <735769_at_ican.net> > > Have just visited the Givens life raft site > > http://www.givensliferafts.com/graphics_plus/raft.html > > It has a nice graphic showing a raft capsizing at sea as well as the Givens > raft staying upright. Very impressive. Imagine the safety of a similar > system that could be deployed from a sea kayak. This is a very effective animated gif. I watched as the raft refused to flip as wave after wave attempted to roll it over (some of those were the same waves repeating in the animaged gif :-) > Such a system would turn the kayak in to a stable platform that would have > minimal drift and would allow you to bundle up inside the boat and even > sleep in safety. It may even be possible to provide a canopy that would > shield you from the elements and allow you to sit upright. <snip> > Were it not for these discussions I would never have thought to search life > raft information to see what it had to offer. Watching this animated gif run over and over made me wonder if sea anchors along with sponsons (maybe?) could be used somehow to create a similar (or somewhat similar) stability. For those who haven't checked this out yet, it *really* is interesting to watch and see the comparisons. I used to observe testing of liferafts taken from big cargo and passenger ships by a local certified inspector. I would love to see them test this one. Interesting idea. Certainly seems like a good direction to work towards for portable and easy add-on stability. Got any ideas at work, John? Cheers, Jackie _ _ _ _ _ \\ / \0/ \ / \0/ \ \\ " " `\ ,sSSs,\, )\w/( ,sSS..)/{) <<..> sSSS_v)/ \ )<*> sSS[(\_]___\ <(_/_o_o_ 'sS[_`-+---+) \----+-------+-------'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~jf ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o \\ o o ` (\ o o >jf:-) o (/ o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
My favorite dealer tried to get a Falcon 18 for me but he's been dropped by Eddyline for lack of activity. These are really nice folks and I want to give them my business... They have a Kevlar Nordkap with a skeg and large cockpit. I haven't tried the boat yet but I wonder how the boats would compare in terms of efficiency, tracking, handling and sea worthyness. Especially in confused seas.. I am 6' and weigh somewhere around 200-210 Any general comments on Nordkaps? Thanks! Bob Denton Vice President Undersea Breathing Systems bob_at_dnax.com http://www.dnax.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie wrote; (SNIP of comments on the Givens Life raft site) >Interesting idea. Certainly seems like a good direction to work towards for >portable and easy add-on stability. Got any ideas at work, John? Have not yet heard back from the Givens people but I have been working on some designs for a similar device that would be attachable to a sea kayak. and it seems like it might work. Their patents are extensive so it is something they would probably have to develop if I can get them interested. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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