In addition to strapping the yak to the rack in the vicinity of the saddles on my Thule, and a bow and stern line to the toggles, I also use a simple "spring" line to the bow and stern that really locks the yak in position. I make a small bowline (the knot) before attaching the bow and stern lines and loop it over the bow or stern. I make the bight (loop) big enough to slide back about 8" on the bow or stern, but no more. I then run the standing part straight fore-aft and taut to my factory rack (on which the Thules are mounted). For slippery polyethylene yaks in slippery plastic saddles, this does the job. If I didn't have the sturdy factory rack as a tie down, and didn't trust the Thules for fore-aft strength, I would run these spring lines over the roof, down to the bumper. Ken *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
hlevin_at_jlc.net (Hal Levine) wrote on April 21: >>I was hoping for some good input on what dynamic forces are really working on the kayaks on the roof of my car. There must be some engineering types out there that can calculate the drag, lift etc. for kayaks moving through air. I started thinking about this when I saw someone traveling with a mattress on the roof of their car. Although is was tied on to the roof, at 55 it was NOT touching the car at all! My SUV has a notice that the "maximum load is 50 lbs. distributed evenly" but my view is that at highway speeds (over 55mph) there may be a stronger backward and lift vector working on my boats. I travel with the boats upright in saddles and it seems that a 50 to 70+ mph wind will attempt to lift the boats out of the saddles and push them backward possibly eliminating any downward force on the front saddles. P.S. I estimate that I may have traveled over 10,000 miles with my boats on the roof and they have made it to all my destinations! Hal >> IMHO the religious use of strong bow *and* stern lines, tied securly to anchor points on the bumpers are a good idea. If the lines are *bombproof* the only purpose of the rack is to keep the boats off the top of the vehicle. The lines double as bow lines on the boats when I get to put-in. In the 20+ years of paddling I have yet to loose a boat off the top of a rig.<knocking on wood> In the 13 years of working in a paddle shop I have heard of many cartopping incidents, all of which were a result of *not* using proper bow and stern lines. As far as resistance goes, I know I get *way* better gas mile sans kayak. Steve Scherrer President ACKS Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Island Dr. Portland, Oregon 97217 Web: http://www.aldercreek.com Email: aldercreek_at_aldercreek.com Phone: 503-285-0464 Fax: 503-285-0106 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: Bill Leonhardt <leonhardt_at_bnldag.ags.bnl.gov> >At 08:23 PM 4/21/98 -0700, someone previously wrote: >>It's good to remember that if you tie your boat to your racks, that's >>only as good as how well your racks are attached to your car. Having watched a roof rack with the car's cheesy gutters still attached fly off the car, with a sheet of plywood, I agree... > I always use bow and stern lines tied directly to my vehicle and would > encourage everyone to do the same. Could you explain to me why you use lines to the back of the vehicle? I almost always use 2 lines to the front of the car, but don't bother with any lines to the back. A paddling acquaintance doesn't normally tie down his boats UNLESS he's going to exceed 25 mph. It's rather disconcerting to ride with him after just tossing a couple of boats onto the roof rack. Even moving my car around in a parking lot I want at least one tie down strap. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 11:56:18AM -0400, Kirk Olsen wrote: > Could you explain to me why you use lines to the back of the vehicle? I > almost always use 2 lines to the front of the car, but don't bother with any > lines to the back. 'Cause if you wind up hitting the brakes *really* hard, or unfortunately, getting into a front-end accident that stops your car abruptly, then the boats on your roof are going to continue moving forward... ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk_at_gsp.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Kirk Olsen wrote: >>From: Bill Leonhardt <leonhardt_at_bnldag.ags.bnl.gov> >> >>>At 08:23 PM 4/21/98 -0700, someone previously wrote: >>>>It's good to remember that if you tie your boat to your racks, that's >>>>only as good as how well your racks are attached to your car. >> >>Having watched a roof rack with the car's cheesy gutters still attached >>fly off the car, with a sheet of plywood, I agree... >> >>> I always use bow and stern lines tied directly to my vehicle and would >>> encourage everyone to do the same. >> >>Could you explain to me why you use lines to the back of the vehicle? I >>almost always use 2 lines to the front of the car, but don't bother with any >>lines to the back. fast stops... what will keep your boat from flying forward in a quick stop?? >>A paddling acquaintance doesn't normally tie down his boats UNLESS he's >>going to exceed 25 mph. It's rather disconcerting to ride with him after >>just tossing a couple of boats onto the roof rack. Even moving my car >>around in a parking lot I want at least one tie down strap. >> >>kirk i tie my boats with 2 straps around the body, and a bow and stern line most all the time... mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark----- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Majority, n.: That quality that distinguishes a crime from a law. Positive, adj.: Mistaken at the top of one's voice. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Mark Zen wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Kirk Olsen wrote: > >>Could you explain to me why you use lines to the back of the vehicle? I > >>almost always use 2 lines to the front of the car, but don't bother with any > >>lines to the back. > > fast stops... what will keep your boat from flying forward in a quick > stop?? The canoes I usually carry are 18.5 foot long marathon flatwater racing boats. These boats overhang the back of the car by several feet. The overhang at the back is slightly more than the distance from the front tie downs to the bumper. I decided to stop using a rear rope after noticing that the front ropes would retension before the rear ropes would, even in the case of a boat launching forward. > i tie my boats with 2 straps around the body, and a bow and stern line > most all the time... I use 2 straps, each doubled over, around the body of the boat, then one line to each side of the front bumper of the vehicle. With my singles canoe I also like to use a foam pad on the roof rack so that the gunwales sink into the foam when I tension the straps. This has really cut down on the amount the boat wiggles when encountering crosswinds or trucks. The singles canoe has extreme tumblehome so the straps are about 5 inches from the gunwales where they attach to the rack. This gap prevents the straps from holding the gunwales in place when the boat tries to shift. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:56 AM 4/22/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Could you explain to me why you use lines to the back of the vehicle? I >almost always use 2 lines to the front of the car, but don't bother with any >lines to the back. > > >kirk >*************************************************************************** Kirk, If you tie a boat with two lines to the bow and I tie with one line to the stern and one to the bow we have the same number of lines and tiedown strength, assuming we use the same material. My feeling is that they would perform the same if the vehicle didn't move. Now let's talk about probable failure scenarios. I expect the bow (and stern) line to be needed when the saddles alone no longer hold the boat. This can happen: 1. When I'm driving really fast. 2. When I'm driving sorta fast and more wind comes from nature and/or a passing vehicle. 3. When I have to make a PANIC stop!! So, sometimes the boat wants to slide forward and sometimes aft. The length of my bow and stern lines is unequal, as is the angle they make to the ground so that I know only one will be stopping the slide initially. I expect that a single line has that strength (and, I hope, so does the attachment on the boat). The second line is therefore a backup. With your scheme, even if you use two independent lines at the bow, I would expect you to use the same attach point on the boat. So all your holding power is from one attach point. My way does have a down side. I carry my kayaks on the roof of a Dodge Caravan. The bow lines travel aft from the front bumper to the bow(s) so they are over the hood. The stern lines travel aft from the rear bumper to the sterns thus allowing people in mall parking lots to walk into them. I generally hang a flag from one stern and truthfully this hasn't happened yet, but I think it's possible. I think that there's more than one way to tie down boats and the important thing is that we use a method that works reliably. Bill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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