Thanks all for the comments on the sailing thread. I have been toying with the idea all winter, and now the clocks have moved forward, and the weather is improving I'm hopefully going to spend more time finding out about the practicalities of sailing kayaks. I have been playing with kites for kayak traction for the last six months. What kites are people using? Last weekend I was flying a stack of two flexifoils, a 6ft, and an 8ft in 20knot plus winds. If you keep these kites turning in the middle of the window in this wind, they will pull you in a kayak down the *beach*. Flying them is definitely a two handed job though, and while they are a lot of fun, I don't think that flexis are that practical for kayak traction, certainly not in my boat. What kites have others tried ? are the 'parafoil' flyers using single line jalbert style kites ? The wipika looks like *THE* kite for traction on water. Is Jean-Philippe Soulé on this list ? He used to post to wave~length and is active on the kite sailing list, and plans to use the wipika wing during an epic paddling expedition in the autumn. For those interested you can check out some pictures of Jean-Philippe & wipika wing on his web sight at: http://www.voicenet.co.jp/~jeanphi/caske_kite.htm I'm in the process of building a sail rig for my boat, much more practical methinks than kites for everyday use. Anyone out there have any ideas about how to put a step into a plastic boat ? I'm planning on machining a thread onto a piece of brass tube and making two brass washers to screw together either side of the deck, with a rubber gasket between them, and adding a plywood brace between the foot peg rails, but I'm a bit concerned that the deck by itself may not take the load. Anyone out there sailing plastic kayaks ? What rigs are people using? Sprit sail rig as used by maatsuyker members looks like a good practical sail, and this will be where I start, but I reckon that a junk rig on a bamboo mast would look very fine on a kayak. I certainly appreciate sail design advice on this list, wherever it comes from. Cheers Colin ______________________________________________________ Dr Colin Calder Centre for CBL in Land Use and Environmental Sciences (CLUES) MacRobert Building, Aberdeen University, Aberdeen, AB24 5UA, UK c.j.calder_at_abdn.ac.uk Tel: (+44) 01224 273768 Fax: (+44) 01224 273752 CLUES WWW: http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/ ______________________________________________________ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Mark Balogh wrote: >> >>At the risk of blaspheming, I want to survey the list on the subject of >>kayak sailing. I have been monitoring the list for some time and rarely >>see the word "sail" so I have avoided mentioning the "S" word until I >>saw someone else post it today. Just for my own curiosity, how many of >>you dedicated kayakers or canoeists will admit to sailing their HPV's. >>Thanks for your assistance and for the interesting list. >> >>Mark hi mark, sailing is fairly popular, from the discussions i have seen... and if i've learned anything from the discussions, it's that your product is pretty popular as well ... of course, i'm ass-u-me-ing a lot from your email address and last name ;-) mark too #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: Ken Thompson has an automobile which he helped design. Unlike most automobiles, it has neither speedometer, nor gas gage, nor any of the numerous idiot lights which plague the modern driver. Rather, if the driver makes any mistake, a giant "?" lights up in the center of the dashboard. "The experienced driver", he says, "will usually know what's wrong." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Mark Balogh wrote: > >>> >>>At the risk of blaspheming, I want to survey the list on the subject of >>>kayak sailing. I have been monitoring the list for some time and rarely >>>see the word "sail" so I have avoided mentioning the "S" word until I >>>saw someone else post it today. Just for my own curiosity, how many of >>>you dedicated kayakers or canoeists will admit to sailing their HPV's. >>>Thanks for your assistance and for the interesting list. I think that you need to be a paddler, or a sailor. It's tough to be both. If you're with a group, everyone needs to have about the same sailing rig. Otherwise, the paddlers are making a pretty much straight line to the destination, and the sailors are tacking all over the place. There's also rig up/rig down time, and carrying around all that junk that you need. The wind has to be perfect for your setup; being either under or over powered isn't much fun. I've seen guys using a golf umbrella, and that seemed to work fairly well in a narrow band of conditions. It also takes a lot of modification to make a kayak into a mean sailing machine. As a former high-performance windsurfer, I'd rather be paddling than putting along in a mild breeze and having swimming ducks casually pass me. To do it right, you'd need pontoons to put up some serious yardage. I have no idea as to how you'd get a kayak with a big, fixed sail upright after tipping over, either. Which you'd do a lot. Remember how unstable kayaks are just to sit in? IOW, if you want to get serious about sailing, get a sailboat. You could probably pick up a used sailboat that could blow the doors off of any kayak for a couple hundred bucks. If you want an occasional free push from the wind, get the most minimal rig possible, and be prepared for the ire of your paddling partners as you diddle around with it. Though putting a windsurfing rig (a full universal joint at the base of the mast) on a sit-on-top might be an interesting thing. You'd sail it standing up. Hmmm... ________________________________________________________________ Doug Barnard Virtual Acreage Agoura, California (near L.A.) Visualization in 2D/3D/4D http://virtualacreage.com 818-991-9328 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard_at_virtualacreage.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] kayak sails > >Though putting a windsurfing rig (a full universal joint at the base of the >mast) on a sit-on-top might be an interesting thing. You'd sail it standing >up. Hmmm... >> I'd be willing to bet that Bruce Gibson, of Venture sports, could make a custom surf ski with a base you could stand on---the seat area would just need to be longer and stronger, with a way to prop your self up when you want to sit and paddle. ....maybe a seat harness????, , and a good attachment area for the windsurf mast joint. The boat would need a slightly different steering system, with a way to pull up the rudder more easily they do now, but you need to get out of the boat and swim to the back to pull the rudder up) and lock it, and the hull would need modifications, so that it could hold an edge like a windsurfer, and turn better by leaning. These are all things I believe he could do. Dan Volker WPB. Fl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A windsurfing sail is a pretty complicated thing. It takes about 10 minutes (on shore) to rig it. The mast is on the order of 17 feet long and is curved by the downhaul. How would you deploy the thing out on the water, and how would you stow it? A sail board the length of a surf ski would probably need a fairly lengthy center board as well as a windsurfing skeg at the stern. Keith Kaste Dan Volker wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard_at_virtualacreage.com> > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 2:30 PM > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] kayak sails > > > > >Though putting a windsurfing rig (a full universal joint at the base of the > >mast) on a sit-on-top might be an interesting thing. You'd sail it standing > >up. Hmmm... > >> > > I'd be willing to bet that Bruce Gibson, of Venture sports, could make a > custom surf ski with a base you could stand on---the seat area would just > need to be longer and stronger, with a way to prop your self up when you > want to sit and paddle. ....maybe a seat harness????, , and a good > attachment area for the windsurf mast joint. The boat would need a slightly > different steering system, with a way to pull up the rudder more easily > they do now, but you need to get out of the boat and swim to the back to > pull the rudder up) and lock it, and the hull would need modifications, so > that it could hold an edge like a windsurfer, and turn better by leaning. > These are all things I believe he could do. > Dan Volker > WPB. Fl > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:20 PM 4/1/98 , Keith Kaste wrote: >A windsurfing sail is a pretty complicated thing. It takes about 10 minutes (on >shore) to rig it. The mast is on the order of 17 feet long and is curved by the >downhaul. How would you deploy the thing out on the water, and how would you >stow it? A sail board the length of a surf ski would probably need a fairly >lengthy center board as well as a windsurfing skeg at the stern. I've rigged in the water before (man was it windy!), so that's not too much of a problem. I think that a rudder would be like a skeg, and maybe the rails, oops, chines, of the kayak would serve the function of a daggerboard, as it does on a short sinker windsurfer hull. The sail could be rolled around the mast, and the booms sort of fold up. The whole rig would need to run the length of the boat, maybe rest against the paddler's hip? I'm planning on getting a sit-on-top this summer (yeah, I know, sort of a backwards step from my stripper double), so maybe I'll give it a try. ________________________________________________________________ Doug Barnard Virtual Acreage Agoura, California (near L.A.) Visualization in 2D/3D/4D http://virtualacreage.com 818-991-9328 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
My wife and I get a kick out of occasionally using a downwind sail on our Klepper double. It's a blast even if you do have to peddle back against the wind :-) Dave SF Bay area ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From owner-paddlewise_at_ns1.intelenet.net Wed Apr 1 07:43:14 1998 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:31:56 -0500 From: Mark Balogh <batwing_at_gte.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] kayak sails Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net At the risk of blaspheming, I want to survey the list on the subject of kayak sailing. I have been monitoring the list for some time and rarely see the word "sail" so I have avoided mentioning the "S" word until I saw someone else post it today. Just for my own curiosity, how many of you dedicated kayakers or canoeists will admit to sailing their HPV's. Thanks for your assistance and for the interesting list. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** ----- End Included Message ----- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark - The most recent issue of the Chesapeake Paddlers Association newsletter carries an article on making kayak sails. I sail my pisces quite frequently, currently with a modified bailey batwing (thanks Craig - see his website for ideas). I'm also familiar with your sails and outriggers - think they're good stuff, just haven't had the $. I like to be able to easily convert from sailing to paddling while on the water - something not always possible with some of the systems I've seen. Greg Welker At 09:31 AM 4/1/98 -0500, Mark Balogh wrote: >At the risk of blaspheming, I want to survey the list on the subject of >kayak sailing. I have been monitoring the list for some time and rarely >see the word "sail" so I have avoided mentioning the "S" word until I >saw someone else post it today. Just for my own curiosity, how many of >you dedicated kayakers or canoeists will admit to sailing their HPV's. >Thanks for your assistance and for the interesting list. > >Mark >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>A windsurfing sail is a pretty complicated thing. It takes about 10 minutes (on >shore) to rig it. The mast is on the order of 17 feet long and is curved by the >downhaul. How would you deploy the thing out on the water, and how would you >stow it? A sail board the length of a surf ski would probably need a fairly >lengthy center board as well as a windsurfing skeg at the stern. > >Keith Kaste > OK........How about an outrigger that can store the sail when you prefer to paddle??? Regards, Dan >Dan Volker wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard_at_virtualacreage.com> >> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> >> Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 2:30 PM >> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] kayak sails >> >> > >> >Though putting a windsurfing rig (a full universal joint at the base of the >> >mast) on a sit-on-top might be an interesting thing. You'd sail it standing >> >up. Hmmm... >> >> >> >> I'd be willing to bet that Bruce Gibson, of Venture sports, could make a >> custom surf ski with a base you could stand on---the seat area would just >> need to be longer and stronger, with a way to prop your self up when you >> want to sit and paddle. ....maybe a seat harness????, , and a good >> attachment area for the windsurf mast joint. The boat would need a slightly >> different steering system, with a way to pull up the rudder more easily >> they do now, but you need to get out of the boat and swim to the back to >> pull the rudder up) and lock it, and the hull would need modifications, so >> that it could hold an edge like a windsurfer, and turn better by leaning. >> These are all things I believe he could do. >> Dan Volker >> WPB. Fl >> >> *************************************************************************** >> PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >> Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >> Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >> *************************************************************************** > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The folding kayaker enthusiasts seem to be the most at home sailing their boats. No one should try to stop you if you want to use a rudder or skeg or sail. Personally, I tend to agree with the other guy who said let kayaks be kayaks and sail boats be sail boats. However, I do think there's room for a fast easy down wind assist. The umberella concept sounds great. Seems easy to bail from if the winds get really nasty, too. BTW windsurfing is an excellent complimentary sport to kayaking. Days when it's too windy to paddle are usually ideal for board sailing. Dan Volker wrote: > >A windsurfing sail is a pretty complicated thing. > >Keith Kaste > > > > OK........How about an outrigger that can store the sail when you prefer to > paddle??? > Regards, > Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:40 1/04/98 -0800, Doug Barnard wrote: >>On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Mark Balogh wrote: >> >>>> >>>>At the risk of blaspheming, I want to survey the list on the subject of >>>>kayak sailing. I have been monitoring the list for some time and rarely >>>>see the word "sail" so I have avoided mentioning the "S" word until I >>>>saw someone else post it today. Just for my own curiosity, how many of >>>>you dedicated kayakers or canoeists will admit to sailing their HPV's. >>>>Thanks for your assistance and for the interesting list. > >I think that you need to be a paddler, or a sailor. It's tough to be both. Doug, I don't agree. Getting a boost from the wind adds another fun dimension to kayaking. Does the ability to do "14 different kinds of roll" diminish in fun, just because it doesn;t take us anywhere >If you're with a group, everyone needs to have about the same sailing rig. >Otherwise, the paddlers are making a pretty much straight line to the On the first open-sea trial of my new sprit-sail rig, the two paddlers with sail rigs had no trouble staying with the group. Group cohesion was affected by following seas, skill levels and 25+ knots of wind, not the sails. >destination, and the sailors are tacking all over the place. There's also >rig up/rig down time, and carrying around all that junk that you need. The For safety's sake, on a narrow flighty boat, design a sail rig with minimal rigging time (mine is under ten seconds both ways) and with the capacity to step and un-step the mast under water. You will capsize at some time! Previous to the sprit-sail rig, I had a spinnaker. I would typically capsize two out of three attempts to step the bloody thing. It demonstrated the importance of judgement (should I sail?) above skills (can I recover with this sail?) above equipment (what, is this a sail?). Anybody want a second-hand spinnaker? >wind has to be perfect for your setup; being either under or over powered >isn't much fun. I've seen guys using a golf umbrella, and that seemed to >work fairly well in a narrow band of conditions. Underpowered? Take the rig down. You don't have that option on a dinghy. Overpowered? Reef the sail or take it down. At the NSW Sea Kayak Club's annual "Rock and Roll Weekend" the sail race was nearly won by a paddler with a golf umbrella! The marker buoy (yours truly) did not keep his position very well (despite the sea anchor and GPS!), so the golf umbrella lost on the broad reach to the finish. > >It also takes a lot of modification to make a kayak into a mean sailing >machine. As a former high-performance windsurfer, I'd rather be paddling >than putting along in a mild breeze and having swimming ducks casually pass It's cool to have swimming ducks pass you. They see you as no threat, and are happy to swim close. Take one paddle stroke and they're off! >me. To do it right, you'd need pontoons to put up some serious yardage. I Mr Ingram's sponsons are of little use under sail. When the kayak heels over, the downwind sponson digs in and the kayak turns around it, downwind. I can broad reach without them, only sail downwind with them. Real outriggers are the way to go. Check back-issues of SeaKayaker for a hydrofoil outrigger called "K-"something. Anybody want second-hand sponsons? They're the green, high-denier model. >have no idea as to how you'd get a kayak with a big, fixed sail upright >after tipping over, either. Which you'd do a lot. Remember how unstable Try this method: * after capsize, let the kayak settle * reach forward, uncleat the sheet * take the mast in one hand, pull it out of the step * furl the sail around the mast * stow the rig in the sail tube on your fore (or aft) deck * roll (with or without sponsons - they make *no* difference!) * pull the rig out of the sail tube * step the mast * sail away Does your rig, and your skill level, allow this? If not, you must reconsider your sailing platform. Have a close look at the sail rigs used by the Maatsykker Canoe Club http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford/ for touring kayaks and rough conditions. >kayaks are just to sit in? > >IOW, if you want to get serious about sailing, get a sailboat. You could >probably pick up a used sailboat that could blow the doors off of any kayak >for a couple hundred bucks. If you want an occasional free push from the >wind, get the most minimal rig possible, It's a free push, that's all. Mark Balogh's sail rigs are different. They seem to be meant for sailing as the primary propulsion, so you really do seem to need the right boat for the rig. I suspect that suitable boats for his rigs have compromises which work against ordinary paddling: * time spent rigging the boat on land * extra resistance from outriggers and hulls with more form-stability * large cockpits, so you can rig the sail and lean out * extra weight and * extra on-land handling, on and off the car They look like fun, if paddling is not the primary objective. >and be prepared for the ire of >your paddling partners as you diddle around with it. > >Though putting a windsurfing rig (a full universal joint at the base of the >mast) on a sit-on-top might be an interesting thing. You'd sail it standing >up. Hmmm... > I was very impressed by the sail rig on a sit-on-top that came out to Broughton Island (about 20 km offshore) with us two weekends ago. This paddler had a Scupper-Pro. It looks like a dog of a boat, but with a fit paddler it kept up on the upwind leg. This paddler had built a mast step just behind the fore-hatch, and modified a very small dinghy sail and mast. Because the Scupper-Pro has a distinct and fairly deep keel, he was able to tack up between two sets of rocks (complete with breaking waves) while I could only reach back and forth in front of them. Even though his is a loose-footed sail, it was more versatile then my sprit-sail. I would have to attribute this performance to the design of the boat. > >________________________________________________________________ >Doug Barnard Virtual Acreage >Agoura, California (near L.A.) Visualization in 2D/3D/4D >http://virtualacreage.com 818-991-9328 Happy paddling _and_ sailing Andrew *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Just for my own curiosity, how many of >you dedicated kayakers or canoeists will admit to sailing their HPV's. I'm not sure mine is an "HPV" - but my trusty Folbot Greenland II gets sailed often (I was out sailing this past Saturday in some fine Georgia light winds). Got the "twins" rig a couple months back. Downwind it is a fine magic carpet ride. Upwind, get out the paddle(s). It has taken some getting used to - because I am a sailor. I'm familiar with a 14,000 lb cruising boat with a 4,500 lb lead keel. A kayak is a somewhat different experience. The person that wrote that to really sail one ought to get a sailboat has a point, but I enjoy the unique experience of sailing my kayak. And a salute to Mark Balough for his creative sail & outrigger designs. He has clearly shown that kayaks can be fine sailing vessels. Keith Duluth, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
First of all, thanks to all the people who replied to my survey on kayak sails. I was surprised but the number of responses to the list and directly to me. I enjoyed hearing from you all. Not a surprise was that the only negative or derogatory comments about kayak sailing come from someone who has never tried it. Since one purpose of the list is to disseminate reliable information, I think I will take the time to disagree with one of the replys. I want to go on record as being a boat lover. I don't think our different preferences in boats and boat use should seperate us the way it seems they sometime do. First I will agree with most of what Andrew Eddy said in his reply to Doug. I would like to reply to some of it myself. > I think that you need to be a paddler, or a sailor. It's tough to be both. > If you're with a group, everyone needs to have about the same sailing rig. > Otherwise, the paddlers are making a pretty much straight line to the > destination, and the sailors are tacking all over the place. Well I disagree, I am a paddler and a sailor. It is not tough to be both. I would agree that it's desirable for most people in a group to be more closely matched in skills and equipment. It is perhaps better not to mix kayakers of different skill levels or sailors and paddlers. Of course sailors usually only tack when going into the wind. But as is obvious, in light wind, the sailors can paddle and keep up but in favorable wind, good bye to the paddlers. That's one of the nice things about kayak sailing, when it's light you can paddle and when it blows, you can sail. > It also takes a lot of modification to make a kayak into a mean sailing > machine. As a former high-performance windsurfer, I'd rather be paddling > than putting along in a mild breeze and having swimming ducks casually pass > me. To do it right, you'd need pontoons to put up some serious yardage. I > have no idea as to how you'd get a kayak with a big, fixed sail upright > after tipping over, either. Which you'd do a lot. Remember how unstable > kayaks are just to sit in? Whoa Doug, these seem like reasons you don't want to sail a kayak, rather than reasons not to. To agree with Andrew, sailing silently among birds is sometimes nice. On narrow kayaks you might want outriggers, (not pontoons, pontoons are floats with the boat on top). One of our sailing kayaks is 22" wide for paddling and 12' wide for sailing. No stability problem there. > IOW, if you want to get serious about sailing, get a sailboat. You could > probably pick up a used sailboat that could blow the doors off of any kayak > for a couple hundred bucks. If you want an occasional free push from the > wind, get the most minimal rig possible, and be prepared for the ire of > your paddling partners as you diddle around with it. Sorry Doug, must disagree again. First, a sailboat and a sailing kayak are not at all the same. A sailing kayak can be paddled or sailed and is very portable. Two of my sail kayaks can be checked as luggage on an airplane. Try that with a sailboat. Second, I have sailed one of my souped up sail kayaks at 15 knots, there are many sailboats that won't ever see the teens. Sailing kayaks are not like sailboards, ultimate speed is not the goal. With a sailboard, there is almost no use for one outside of speed or surf sailing. That doesn't mean one shouldn't sail a sailboard. I sailed sailboards and designed and built sails for them for over 10 years and think they are great but I wouldn't go touring on one. Sailing kayaks are versitile, viable, recreational and expedition watercraft. I just outfitted yet another kayak for an 850 mile arctic kayak trip. There is also Lindemann who sailed and paddled transatlantic. The list of kayak sailing achievements goes on and is as impressive as any other sport. I'm not even suggesting you try one, it's certainly not for everyone, but maybe you would be better off to try one before making such broad negative comments. Kayak sailing just like kayak paddling stand on their own. I don't want to create any animosity between paddlers and sailors, some of my best friends are paddlers, I actually own and use several paddles. I just want to set the record straight. We are generally a non-evangalistic sect, but are defensive when provoked. Sorry to get so wordy, I am going to put my soap box away now. Good sailing or paddling Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
NOW, dear Paddlewisers, ladies & gentlemen. Here is a topic, which was roused by the writer himself, I think. And it ends with him selling his ideas to us... What do you think, does the phenomenon look familiar to you? > I don't want to create any animosity between paddlers and sailors, some > of my best friends are paddlers, I actually own and use several > paddles. I just want to set the record straight. We are generally a > non-evangalistic sect, but are defensive when provoked. Sorry to get so > wordy, I am going to put my soap box away now. > > Good sailing or paddling > Mark [Just couldnīt stay away, couldnīt I ;-) ????] Cheers, Ari Saarto Sailors, no offense intended, but willing to do it hard way. Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ari Saarto, It seems you are busting me for something but I am not sure what. Have I breached some list etiquette? Mark > NOW, dear Paddlewisers, ladies & gentlemen. Here is a topic, which > was roused by the writer himself, I think. And it ends with him > selling his ideas to us... > > What do you think, does the phenomenon look familiar to you? > > > I don't want to create any animosity between paddlers and sailors, some > > of my best friends are paddlers, I actually own and use several > > paddles. I just want to set the record straight. We are generally a > > non-evangalistic sect, but are defensive when provoked. Sorry to get so > > wordy, I am going to put my soap box away now. > > > > Good sailing or paddling > > Mark > > [Just couldnīt stay away, couldnīt I ;-) ????] > > > > Cheers, > > Ari Saarto > Sailors, no offense intended, but willing to do it hard way. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Balogh wrote: > > Ari Saarto, > > It seems you are busting me for something but I am not sure what. Have > I breached some list etiquette? > > Mark > > > NOW, dear Paddlewisers, ladies & gentlemen. Here is a topic, which > > was roused by the writer himself, I think. And it ends with him > > selling his ideas to us... > > > > What do you think, does the phenomenon look familiar to you? Mark, I think Ari is sensitive to the possibility that you posted to Paddlewise to promote your sails. I did not read your posting that way at all, because of the way it was presented. I suspect that the nuances of the exchanges lose something when translated between cultures. Ari, the market for Mark's sails is not one requiring Mark to promote his products. Last time I checked, there was quite a long wait to get one of his BOSS rigs, and often used ones were selling for close to new price. He does not have to promote their sale. I'd say, "No harm, no foul." And, I do not know the cultural equivalent for Ari, but maybe someone else will. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR sea kayaker, and sometime user of Folbot's Twins rig -- no affiliation with anybody who sells yaks, paddles, sails, or anything related to stuff discussed on this list. Definitely an admirer of the designs Mark makes and sells. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Mark Balogh wrote: >> >>Ari Saarto, >> >>It seems you are busting me for something but I am not sure what. Have >>I breached some list etiquette? >> >>Mark well, you asked a leading question, then came back and sort of promoted your own product... everyone here has a little problem with a man named tim XXXXXX, who constantly promoted his own product [look at jackie's april fools joke/message, and you'll get the idea. ari's english isn't always 100%, but he's pointing out a trend here. _i_ [and i'm NOT the list admin] don't think you were promoting your product as much as defending the sailing philosophy. so _i_ didn't take it as an advertisement... consider this as a chiding, and welcome to the list. i personally enjoy having mfgr/designers/etc on the list for honest feedback, but we don't want people selling their wares... and now back to our regularly scheduled discussion!! mark >> >>> NOW, dear Paddlewisers, ladies & gentlemen. Here is a topic, which >>> was roused by the writer himself, I think. And it ends with him >>> selling his ideas to us... >>> >>> What do you think, does the phenomenon look familiar to you? >>> >>> > I don't want to create any animosity between paddlers and sailors, some >>> > of my best friends are paddlers, I actually own and use several >>> > paddles. I just want to set the record straight. We are generally a >>> > non-evangalistic sect, but are defensive when provoked. Sorry to get so >>> > wordy, I am going to put my soap box away now. >>> > >>> > Good sailing or paddling >>> > Mark >>> >>> [Just couldnīt stay away, couldnīt I ;-) ????] >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Ari Saarto >>> Sailors, no offense intended, but willing to do it hard way. >>*************************************************************************** >>PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >>Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >>Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >>Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >>*************************************************************************** >> >> #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/cpr [Colorado Paddlers' Resource] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmskc [Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club] http://www.diac.com/~zen/rmcc [Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page] http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark [personal] -- Fortune: May your Tongue stick to the Roof of your Mouth with the Force of a Thousand Caramels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, I'm interested in anything you can do with a kayak, including sailing. One person on this list implied that only folding boat users seemed to have an interest in sailing-as if we are a special breed of kayaker (well, maybe we are :-). It did look like you started a discussion in the hopes of pushing a bit of information on your sails, but that didn't bother me any. I don't mind hearing from manufacturers as long as they don't go the route of the sponson guy. I sometimes paddle my Klepper Double and use it's sail, but usually, my wife and I are in our hardshell Eddyline kayaks (Raven and Merlin) while my stepson is in the FeatherCraft KLite folder. Sailing is a blast, why would anyone want to be a "purist" about any sport, unless you're in it for competitive purposes. Dave Baughman SF Bay area > Ari Saarto, > > It seems you are busting me for something but I am not sure what. Have > I breached some list etiquette? > > Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave wrote: > I'd say, "No harm, no foul." And, I do not know the cultural equivalent > for Ari, but maybe someone else will. I am truly sorry if I did overreact. After some older discussions, I do hope that you donīt blame me too much becoming a little paranoiac about commercialism. It might be that there was something very provoking the way Mark wrote about provoking ;-) I wonder if there is now a tribe of sailing kayakers, sharpening their knives after provocation by Doug and me . >I suspect that the nuances of the exchanges lose something when >translated between cultures. Yup. Or one is able to greate totally new nuances...fortunately, my reading beats my writing. I do also agree with Mark Z: >I personally enjoy having mfgr/designers/etc on the list for honest >feedback Sincerely, I do apologize if I did misinterpret. This has been a very peaceful and sophisticated (!?!) list and I am intending to be part of that peacefulness. Cheers, Ari Saarto "Beyond the horizon" Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ari, Dave and others that replied, Thanks for pointing out the source of the ruckus. I am sorry if my posting may have seemed comercial. I really thought I had done a decent job of avoiding that impression. This list is a recreational thing for me and it did not occur to me that so many would see my business behind the writer. I fully understand your timophobia and did not mean to stir the fire. > It might be that there was something very provoking the way Mark > wrote about provoking ;-) I wonder if there is now a tribe of > sailing kayakers, sharpening their knives after provocation by Doug > and me . Ari, my comments about being non evangelistic and being provoked were a lame attempt at some tounge in cheek humor, I was trying to lighten up what I felt was perhaps an overly serious post. I am sure I get too sensitive some times as well and my weakness is people I perceive to be saying that what I am doing can't be done. I have spent the last 25 years or so a little outside of the mainstream and certain types of comments have come to act as a trigger. If my reply to Doug was too strong, I apologize. I will try to control my impulses. I am certainly not sharpening my blunt point River Shorty knife. Someone more articulate than myself weighed in, I think it was Mark Zen, and said that they felt I was "defending the sailing philosophy". I'll take that as my defense. Before I was a sailmaker, I was a sailor. Hopefully after I retire, I will be a sailor. The one who subscibes to this list is the sailor not the sailmaker. I really enjoy kayaking and kayak sailing so others be fore warned, I am honor bound to defend the sailing philosophy. Darn, my soap box has slid out again. I promise to do my best to keep this list non-comercial and peaceful. If I don't, I feel confident someone will help me back to the path. Good kayaking and canoeing to you all Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:20 PM 4/2/98 -0500, Mark Balogh wrote: >Ari, Dave and others that replied, > >Thanks for pointing out the source of the ruckus. I am sorry if my >posting may have seemed comercial. >Good kayaking and canoeing to you all > >Mark OK now that thats out of the way how do you compare a parafoil kite of the same sq. ft. as a sail in performance , handling and easy of use and storage? You can let your prejudice toward sails show here a little. I did not compare price because thats not fair.That is in a hundred words or less with out (ha ha ) promoting your product. I have done quite a bit of kayak kiting but not with a sail. My kites are 8&16 sq. ft. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> now that thats out of the way how do you compare a parafoil kite of the > same sq. ft. > as a sail in performance , handling and easy of use and storage? You can > let your prejudice > toward sails show here a little. I did not compare price because thats not > fair.That is in a > hundred words or less with out (ha ha ) promoting your product. I have done > quite a bit of > kayak kiting but not with a sail. My kites are 8&16 sq. ft. Dana, There is a good post by Andrew Eddy today that expresses many of the pros and cons of parafoil type kites. It seems that you have spent some time kite sailing, why don't you relate your kite sailing experience. I would like to learn more. I have done some research on kites and have built and sailed one parafoil but have not had as much experience kite sailing as many people have. I am intrigued by the marine traction kites such as the Wipika but for the most part feel that comparisons between kites and sail is a little like apples and oranges. They both have stong points and weak points. All in all, I think a good sail rig is more versatile than a kite but at the cost of complexity and weight. I don't think I have a prejudice toward sail rigs so much as a preference toward a certain kind of sailing. My own fantasy trip is a long distance ocean passage. On a trip from the US to Bermuda, I think a sail rig could be quite useful, but with prevailing winds, a kite would be somewhat limited. To me it is the use that determines the gear. I feel there is a use for kites and uses for different kinds of sail rigs. You must first decide what you want to do then choose the appropriate equipment. Kites, even among parafoils vary widely in performance and the best ones are the ones tuned for traction. To generalize, the stong points for parafoil kites are light weight and simplicity. The weak points are limited directional ability and limited wind range. When the wind is light they are troublesome and the require a minimum wind range to launch and sail. Once aloft, if your boat accelerates downwind, the apparent wind on the kite is reduced and if the apparent wind drops below the minumum the kite goes in the water. In heavy winds some parafoils become unstable and the ones that don't can sometimes be difficult to retrieve. I can not give a direct comparison between parafoil kites and sails from experience. Most of what I have heard is similar to what Andrew Eddy has reported. If forced to choose between the two, I would choose a good downwind sail over a parafoil if I had the room and payload capacity to carry the extra gear. I would consider a parafoil if carrying a deck mounted sail was not practical. Traction kite technology is advancing and is very interesting. Kites like the Wipika are of reasonably good performance and can be launched and relaunched from the water in 8 to 10 knot winds. They can create very stong pull. As of now, I personally feel that due to the continuous attention they require, they may be better suited to sport sailing than to touring or cruising. This is a personal opinion. I also think they may be a lot of fun in the right place and conditions. I hope some more kite sailors on the list will share their experiences. Bruno from Wipika has written me that he will be posting some phots of a kayak sailing with a Wipika kite on his site within the next two weeks. Those who are interested should take a look at his site. I think it is at <wipika.com>. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:08 AM 4/3/98 -0500, Mark Balogh wrote: >> now that thats out of the way how do you compare a parafoil kite of the >> same sq. ft. >> as a sail in performance , handling and easy of use and storage? You can >> let your prejudice >> toward sails show here a little. I did not compare price because thats not >> fair.That is in a >> hundred words or less with out (ha ha ) promoting your product. I have done >> quite a bit of >> kayak kiting but not with a sail. My kites are 8&16 sq. ft. > >Dana, > >I hope some more kite sailors on the list will share their experiences. >Bruno from Wipika has written me that he will be posting some phots of a >kayak sailing with a Wipika kite on his site within the next two weeks. >Those who are interested should take a look at his site. I think it is >at <wipika.com>. > > >Mark Kite sailing can be fun but the wind needs to be 15mph or above to be easy. The kites take a little to launch, I use a 4ft. wooden dowel with a notch in one end to hold the line which puts the kite at 6-8ft above the water.Higher would be better. The first thirty feet above the water is the most dificult, the wind is turbulant and some times you crash over and over.Below is a hand out that went sold with the kites when I use to sell them a while back. I like the Sutton Flow Form Parafoil Kite because they have pressure-relieving vents that water will drain out of unlike some parafoils that are sewed tight and will hold water like a bag when you get them to the surface. Dana Your Sutton Flow Form Parafoil Kite will fly in a wider range of winds than most other kites. In heavy winds you may need to add a tail , tie a five foot line to each of the loops at the rear of the kite then tie the ends together and add the tail at this point. If your kite should need adjusting (the kite pulls one way) shorten the opposite bridle line to achieve a straight flight. Your kite line should be 70-100 ft. in length, 75# for the 8 sq. ft. model ( for a one person kayak) and 150# for the 16 sq. ft. model ( double kayak). Never tie the kite line to yourself or the kayak for safety reasons. To launch your Parafoil from your kayak , back the kayak into the wind, Always brace your kayak so you will not flip over should you be pulled off balance , unfold your kite and let out 10-20 ft. of line and lift the kite as high as possible , it will fill with air and leave your hand. A 3-4ft. wooden dowel with a notch cut in one end will help raise the kite further off the water when you go to launch. When you launch your kite you will need to pump the line to help gain altitude. It is best if you do not travel directly down wind as the kite need some drag to stay up. When your kite falls to the water do not try to pull it in, this may break the line or rip the kite. The kite will open up under water and tries to fly putting tremendous pressure on the kite and line. Paddle to the kite as you wined up the line. When you lift the kite out of the water lift it from the front or back to let the water flow out of it before picking it up. The Flow Form kites has pressure-relieving vents that water will drain out of unlike some parafoils that are sewed tight and will hold water. It is a good idea to have a knife along to cut the line should you become entangled. Hold the handle in one hand as you use the paddle to brace and steer. Should some thing happen and you need to get rid of the kite in a emergency , let go of the handle and the kite will fall out of the sky. Try not to get tangled in the line.You can slide a cork fishing float to each of the bridle line that will keep it from completely sinking.( or you can buy the "Floatation Attachment" that will let you install two balloons in the kite that will keep it on the surface) This kit includes a plastic handle and 100ft. of line. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dana, Thanks for the kite sailing info. Anybody out there sailed a Wipika on a kayak? Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I know nothing about kayak sails. I have heard Balogh sails spoken of quite highly. Who better to describe the product than the maker himself? Would you mind explaining what you have to offer? I know you will not spam us. How do you retrofit a hard shell? Are lee boards required? How are they deployed? Maybe Tim Ingram is monitoring this list and will be able to learn: if you speak like someone who is in his right mind others might listen. Keith Kaste Mark Balogh wrote: > Thanks for pointing out the source of the ruckus. I am sorry if my > posting may have seemed comercial. I really thought I had done a decent > job of avoiding that impression. This list is a recreational thing for > me and it did not occur to me that so many would see my business behind > the writer. I fully understand your timophobia and did not mean to stir > the fire. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 22:46 2/04/98 -0500, you wrote: >At 07:20 PM 4/2/98 -0500, Mark Balogh wrote: >>Ari, Dave and others that replied, >>Thanks for pointing out the source of the ruckus. I am sorry if my >>posting may have seemed comercial. >>Good kayaking and canoeing to you all >>Mark > >OK now that thats out of the way how do you compare a parafoil kite of the >same sq. ft. >as a sail in performance , handling and easy of use and storage? You can >let your prejudice >toward sails show here a little. I did not compare price because thats not >fair.That is in a >hundred words or less with out (ha ha ) promoting your product. I have done >quite a bit of >kayak kiting but not with a sail. My kites are 8&16 sq. ft. > >Dana Dana, I played with two parafoils during a trip last August. The trip was ten days of paddling in the Whitsunday Island group in Queensland. August in the (Southern Hemisphere) tropics brings steady, moderate trade winds from the south-east. One paddler in the group had a simple triangular sail of about 0.5 sq m (about 5.3 sq ft in old units). His boat is a long, very hard-tracking boat. I brought two (borrowed) parafoils. One is supposedly specially designed for sea kayaking. It is about 1.3 sq m (14 sq ft). The other is designed as a child's toy and is about 0.5 sq m. My boat doesn't track at all and gets blown very quickly leeward. When heeled over under sail, it is even worse. The kayak sailor with the simple triangular sail was able to sail from downwind to a broad reach, with ease. He sailed a lot, during this trip. The smaller parafoil was OK on my kayak, but did not move me anywhere near as fast as the sail moved my companion. The larger parafoil pulled really hard. The problem was that the bridle was not right, and I was unwilling to change it. The parafoil flew very high; it gave lots of lift but very little traction. On the one day when I was best able to fly it from a beach start, it lifted my boat enough that I was unable to surf the following sea. My companions without sails or parafoils were faster, because they could catch the waves! I liked the ease of flying the parafoil. Once it is up, in a decent wind, it exerts no heeling forces on the kayak, and it is well out of the reach of the paddle. Deployment is more of an issue. Pulling in the larger parafoil took several minutes. Those several minutes can make a peaceful, quiet anchorage seem like a very busy harbour. All those things to collide with. Looking back, I would like to try the larger parafoil again, and try a few changes to the bridle. The parafoils were a nuisance in light or fluky winds. Neither would re-launch from the water, and I had to dry them by holding them up in the breeze. The point is: a parafoil looks like a good way to go, but its setup is finicky. The best kite rig that I have ever seen is the Wipika. It looks magic. I'm not sure about the deployment time (it uses a pump to inflate the spars), nor about the size (5 sq m - about 50 sq ft !!) or about the price (about $700 ?) but it still looks good. Check http://www.wipika.com There, that's not _my_ commercial plug! On the whole, I like the ease-of-use of a simple sprit-sail or similar. I will have a chance to make comparisons on the coming weekend. The NSW Sea Kayak Club has its big semiannual get-together down at Honeymoon Bay on the NSW South Coast. We would expect 50 to 70 people and nearly as many boats. About 10% of members have a sail-rig of some sort, maybe even more than 10%. The sail race was a great attraction last November. You're all invited! I'll may post a little more after the weekend. Andrew *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> > > On the whole, I like the ease-of-use of a simple sprit-sail or similar. I > will have a chance to make comparisons on the coming weekend. The NSW Sea > Kayak Club has its big semiannual get-together down at Honeymoon Bay on the > NSW South Coast. We would expect 50 to 70 people and nearly as many boats. > About 10% of members have a sail-rig of some sort, maybe even more than > 10%. The sail race was a great attraction last November. You're all invited! Take a clear, vinyl, umbrella with you!!!!! It's a blast and very easy to set up and use.Richard > > > I'll may post a little more after the weekend. > > Andrew > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> On the whole, I like the ease-of-use of a simple sprit-sail or similar. I > will have a chance to make comparisons on the coming weekend. The NSW Sea > Kayak Club has its big semiannual get-together down at Honeymoon Bay on the > NSW South Coast. We would expect 50 to 70 people and nearly as many boats. > About 10% of members have a sail-rig of some sort, maybe even more than > 10%. The sail race was a great attraction last November. You're all invited! Andrew, I enjoyed your posts on sailing and kite sailing. Would be interested in hearing more about either. Do most of the sailors down your way use sprit or lug sails? What is the November sail race you mention? Anyway, thanks for the informtion. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I made a moderate-sized V sail using a tent fly and poles a couple of summers ago which I used to sail the sea lion I was paddling at the time I decided that the deck would not take the stresses of having a mast stepped through it even with reinforcement so I replaced the bolts on the deck-bungee cleats with longer ones which then could be used to attatch washers and inverted bungee cleats on the underside of the deck.I used a length of heavy bungee through these to hold the tent-pole mast snug up against the front of the cockpit and stepped it into a hole drilled in the stiffening rod at the keel line. Worked well in moderate breeze but did not extend high enough to help in light breeze. mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Thanks for pointing out the source of the ruckus. I am sorry if my > posting may have seemed comercial. I really thought I had done a > decent > job of avoiding that impression. This list is a recreational thing > for > So did I. Didn't someone have to ask if you were, in fact, the sail guy? I didn't read each post as carefully as others may have, but they seemed ok to me. After all the trouble in rbp, and I gather here, with the sponson guy, I can also see how a lot of people could be a little sensitive. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:28 3/04/98 -0800, you wrote: >I own two folding kayaks. One an older(no longer made)tandem and a solo, >both from folbot. I have sailed the tandem for years, down wind only. >First using parafoil kites then a couple or so years ago added a small >spinnaker sail. I have wanted one of Mark Balogh's batwing rigs for >sometime but $$ has gotten in the way. After going and checking out what >you people are doing has gave me hope! My sprit-sail cost about $35. The mast and boom were scraps of 20 mm OD aluminium tubing. The sail-cloth and double sided tape were from the sail-maker, of course! The end-plugs and joints were nylon bimini-top fittings. The deck reinforcing consists of a fibreglass knee-tube and a core-mat and chop-strand rib from gunwale to gunwale. Total weight is 700 g (25 oz) for the sail and mast, and 600g (22 oz) for the extra fibregalss in the deck. > >Do you know of anyone fitting one of the sprit sails on a folding kayak? There is a back-issue of the Folding Kayak Newsletter (ask Ralph Diaz) which shows a sail rig, complete with lee-boards, on a Feathercraft K1. >I noticed in the pictures that all the kayaks appeared to be hard shell. They are all fibreglass. If I were to fit any sort of sail rig to my Feathercraft, I would start back at the parafoils. >If so, do you know what size sail they used? >Also, I saw no lee boards.. How close to wind can most sail with out >them, or is this even a thought there..? Of course it is a thought. My fibreglass boat can run under sail while pointed 15 degrees into the wind, with a true course exactly across the wind. The friend who built the same rig as mine, at the same time, has a boat which tracks a lot better, and can make a true course about 10 degrees higher. The paddler who took his Scupper Pro, with sail rig, out to Broughton Island a few weeks ago can point even higher. > >Thanks for your time and any information you can feed me! > >Good fall WX to you! > >James, in sunny, windy, springtime New Mexico.. > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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