A question for "my mentor" Dave Kruger. . . but I think a discussion for the whole group. I've been paddling a year and have been around the water, boats, and snorkeling all my life. . . An ACA Instructor is trying to convince me that I need bracing and rolling classes. I have huge problems with spending money on stuff I can't hold in my hand. (Hey! The govt. paid for my degrees!) Jumping all over the place now: I've tried getting back in the boat right along the mouth of the Skipanon. . . in a decent current. I *can* do it, but it means spending most of the afternoon moving radios and stuff on my vest. Inflating paddle floats, moving the spare paddle way back on the rear deck, scratching the bejesus out of the topside, and drifting aimlessly while I try to get that second leg into the boat and turn/sit without flipping over again. It could be really foul in heavy seas! I have a dock on a lake where I can practice without current in fairly tepid water. I plan to do some "dockside" work to develop a "bombproof" E. Roll. I have a "curriculum" all laid out. . . start with holding the edge of the dock and get a feel for the roll of my boat, work on a "snap" with my hand on the dock. Next, work on a roll with a paddle float attached to the blade. Move on to the roll with a paddle. . . I've been told that extending the paddle and holding the blade in the "weak" hand is a good method initially. I've read several works on the E. Roll, including Hutchinson's out of print book on rolling. I'm a skilled reader (M.A. Lit) and my learning style is to get several books and bone up (OK, teaching certificates and classroom experience too. . .) Ultimately I'd like to be able to roll without a paddle. I'm a very strong swimmer and have a powerful stroke. I'm also very comfortable with being upside-down underwater. I know that the Aleuts can roll with a rock in their hand, and I've seen white-water dudes roll with a beer in the hand. . . I know that this is possible. Now. . . my real question. I can get back in the boat, and have a wet-suit/dry-top combo that will save my butt et al from the hypothermia. . . I'm really comfortable solo in my boat in stormy seas on the order of 3 foot plus. . . I've never come close to capsizing even in some good storms and heavy seas. So just how skilled should I be when paddling way off shore on the Columbia? Geo./Svenn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hi At one time I had the indestructable attitude too. I had never come close to turning over etc etc. Anyway, I did always want to learn to roll because the wet exit in rough or even slightly rough conditions was getting less and less appealing. My thought being the more miles you put on the more your chances of taking a spill. I also tend to go out all winter in the Northeast and the cold water seems to get colder and colder. Anyway, I read how to roll articles, looked at pictures and tried. I don't care who pays for whose college (paid for mine on my own) the conclusion is GO PAY SOMEONE FOR A LESSON! After all the fooling around without any success, I took a lesson and was rolling in a day. Mind you, it is not bombproof, but I have the solid basics now. I would have NEVER figured it out on my own. Now, every time I go out I conclude my trip with at least 10 practice rolls. I purchased a new boat a couple of weeks ago. I told the dealer that I wanted instruction before I closed the deal. They obliged and I got a full day of review from a good instructor. It wasnt some geeky do this do that type thing. It was a real quick review of bracing/strokes/skulling/rolling/surfing etc etc. I got more out of that day than reading any geeky kayak book. I now have all kinds of things to work on and bad habits to break. In conclusion, I was out yesterday for a short paddle. As I was coming in, I accidently dug my paddle in somehow and caught a crab. Well, the guy who never went over WENT OVER IN FLAT CALM! I easily rolled out of it and was glad I didn't have to spend the end of my day blowing, craweling and pumping. Sell some of your gadgets and use the dinero for a lesson....I think you will be happy you did! Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:08 PM 5/17/98 EDT, it was written: >At one time I had the indestructable attitude too. Not an indestructable attitude, I'm trying to find the median on all this. The instructor I'm referring to is half my age (he's 23) and big on the "adrenaline" stuff. He's an avid fan of surf yakking, likes to head out in storms and heavy seas, and is beginning to get serious about white water and diving off waterfalls in a boat. So that's one end of the kayak paradigm. On the other end, I paddle with people who never go out in open surf, stay away from rough water, and just plain don't roll. That's maybe the other end. There's a creew in Seattle that has practice sessions before group paddles around the Gulf Islands. That seems somewhere in the middle. So I'm "testing the waters," trying to appraise what sort of skills I need to yak safely where I want to go. I suppose what I'm trying to figure is if the proposed lessons are training me to be a kayaking "hot-dog" or just ensuring that I don't end up being "turkey sausage." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
George, Take a lesson if you want to learn how to brace and roll. I don't know anyone who learned how to roll without help from a human being. I suggest you take a class to see how to do it and to learn the exercises you need to learn the components of the roll. You can read about them, but it really helps to see them done. Then start going to pools during kayak sessions and practice. I have found the people you meet kayaking in pools to be incredibly helpful. In fact, I couldn't have learned the roll without the help from kind strangers during pool sessions. The beaverton pool (I think its on third) is open for rolling Monday nights and Wednesday nights. I am traveling a lot for the next several weeks, but I'm usually at the pool every wednesday night (working on my hand roll -- which I hope to have by the middle of summer). I'd be happy to help you with your roll. Just look for an overly large, bearded guy with a really ugly blue perception Dancer XT. -Tim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>At 10:21 PM 5/16/98 -0700, George wrote: >> An ACA Instructor is trying to convince me that I need bracing and >>rolling classes. I have huge problems with spending money on stuff I can't >>hold in my hand. (Hey! The govt. paid for my degrees!) The attitude/statement above is in my opinion the reason why so many people get into trouble on open water. Nothing personal George. Unfortunately, the vast majority of paddlers have the exact same attitude when it comes to professional instruction. They'll spend $200 for a paddle, $150 for a PFD, $1200 - $2500 on a boat, $100 for a compass, $400 for drysuits, $200 for a GPS and who knows how much else on other items. Yet, they won't take IMHO the most important step and that is to get instruction from a qualified coach; someone who is not only an accredited paddler, but also an accredited instructor. My wife and I invested in professional coaching (BCU) early on and it has paid for itself a million times over. This investment is not just monetary, it is a commitment to learn new skills, practice them over and over and go back for continueing education to refine technique, and of course learn new skills. Like you, we read the books over and over, plus we went to symposiums, club clinics and practiced almost daily with another paddler who we considered accomplished, and we learned to roll both sides that way. We thought we were good paddlers, but in fact we really were not. We had simply learned how to roll well. We never really learned all the important components that make it a bomb-proof roll, nor had we really perfected our low and high brace or our sculling: the true components that help prevent capsize to start and then make up the roll. We didn't have a clue about "reading water". In short, we had to start all over and "build" our paddling skills. It was humbling but more than worth it. My only regret is that we didn't get real instruction from the start. Now we look for more challenging conditions, cautiously but with confidence. Our next step is to continue paddling in open moving water for more experience, better seamanship and to improve technique so that we can make the next step from Four Star Sea Proficiency to Five Star. You obviously love the kayaking and are a motivated paddler. Proper professional instruction will feed your enthusiasm, abilities and confidence and further enhance your enjoyment of the sport. Just do it! Robert Starling ________________________________________________________ Robert Starling Member ASMP / APSG / PPA Starling Productions, Inc. Orlando, Florida Phone 407 521-0041 Fax 407 521-0031 http://www.starling.com NetGuide Magazine Internet Site Of The Day *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >> An ACA Instructor is trying to convince me that I need bracing and > >>rolling classes. I have huge problems with spending money on stuff I > can't > >>hold in my hand. (Hey! The govt. paid for my degrees!) > > The attitude/statement above is in my opinion the reason why so many > people > get into trouble on open water. Nothing personal George. > Unfortunately, > I don't disagree with anything you said, Bob. What I would say, however, is different strokes for different folks. Not everyone wants or needs to be an expert in every aspect of any sport. Some folks just like to just paddle around in 'quiet' waters while others like heading out into the rough stuff. IMHO the key is to know your capabilities and limitations and to paddle within them. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-05-18 11:17:39 EDT, you write: > >> An ACA Instructor is trying to convince me that I need bracing and > >>rolling classes. I have huge problems with spending money on stuff I > can't > >>hold in my hand. (Hey! The govt. paid for my degrees!) > > The attitude/statement above is in my opinion the reason why so many > people > get into trouble on open water. Nothing personal George. > Unfortunately, > I don't disagree with anything you said, Bob. What I would say, however, is different strokes for different folks. Not everyone wants or needs to be an expert in every aspect of any sport. Some folks just like to just paddle around in 'quiet' waters while others like heading out into the rough stuff. IMHO the key is to know your capabilities and limitations and to paddle within them. >> I think the point here is that *with* professional instruction one can increase those limits in an expotential rate. I taught myself how to kayak <whitewater> 20 years ago. There were not very many options for instruction back then. It took me 4 years to learn the roll. Now in our instruction program <ACA> we can *usually* get the student rolling after 3 hours or so in the pool. The concepts of boat support and recovery <brace and roll> are a bit counter-intuitive. The human body does not function well without air. To roll a kayak you need to fip the boat over with your hips *then* and only *then* does your head come out of the water. This is *nearly* impossible to learn without help. The professional instructor can cut this frustrating learning curve down into easy to grasp concepts. Struggle if you wish, but IMHO NOTHING takes the place of PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION. Steve Scherrer President ACKS ACA Instructor Trainer Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Island Dr. Portland, Oregon 97217 Web: http://www.aldercreek.com Email: aldercreek_at_aldercreek.com Phone: 503-285-0464 Fax: 503-285-0106 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 18 May 1998, SG Scorpio wrote: <snipola> > To roll a kayak you need to fip the boat over with your hips *then* and only > *then* does your head come out of the water. This is *nearly* impossible to > learn without help. The professional instructor can cut this frustrating > learning curve down into easy to grasp concepts. Struggle if you wish, but > IMHO NOTHING takes the place of PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION. I fundamentally disagree with this last statement, although I definitely agree with everything else Steve says. Lots and lots of paddlers learn whitewater these days without professional instruction. They learn from friends. Overall safety is probably lessened in a globally average sense, but it is an absolutely valid way to learn kayaking (river or sea) to an expert level of competence. If anyone chooses this route to learning kayaking, you must be very wary that your friends are competent to make learning safe for you. You might not have the experience or knowledge to make this judgement for yourself, but you MUST place your trust in your friends wisely and deliberately. I can tell a great story about my first river trip under the tutelage of a more advanced friend who said "Your run down that class II+ stretch looked great! I think you're ready for class IV." If you don't have friends who you can trust to teach you safely, or if you want to significantly enhance the pace at which you learn, then by all means, pay for professional instruction. > Steve Scherrer > President ACKS > ACA Instructor Trainer > Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe > 250 NE Tomahawk Island Dr. > Portland, Oregon 97217 > > Web: http://www.aldercreek.com > Email: aldercreek_at_aldercreek.com > Phone: 503-285-0464 > Fax: 503-285-0106 > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
K. Whilden wrote: > > On Mon, 18 May 1998, SG Scorpio wrote: > > IMHO NOTHING takes the place of PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTION. > > I fundamentally disagree with this last statement, although I definitely > agree with everything else Steve says. Lots and lots of paddlers > learn whitewater these days without professional instruction. They learn > from friends. Yes, but they will learn faster and with less stress if they get competent instruction. I've trained enough canoe instructors to know that competent paddling and competent teaching are not the same. They frequently coexist, but not always. Noticed I said "competent," not "professional." ACA instructors are mainly volunteers. > Overall safety is probably lessened in a globally average > sense, but it is an absolutely valid way to learn kayaking (river or sea) > to an expert level of competence. Assuming you have expert friends. Most of us aren't that lucky. And 'overall safety is...lessened in a globally average sense'?? Huh? Perhaps what you mean is, a trained instructor will spend a lot of time dealing with safety issues; your friends probably won't spend nearly as much. 'Overall' and 'globally' don't mean squat to me if my friends haven't bothered to teach me how to stay/get out of trouble. > If anyone chooses this route to learning > kayaking, you must be very wary that your friends are competent to make > learning safe for you. You might not have the experience or knowledge to > make this judgement for yourself, but you MUST place your trust in your > friends wisely and deliberately. Let's examine this statement. I'm a beginning kayaker, so I have no experience or knowledge to judge whether my buddy is competent to teach me to perform a hazardous sport, so I MUST place my trust in my friends wisely, although with ignorance. Is that what you said? > I can tell a great story about my first > river trip under the tutelage of a more advanced friend who said "Your run > down that class II+ stretch looked great! I think you're ready for class > IV." Even though it might be entertaining, don't bother. That last sentence says more than anyone can to refute your argument. > > If you don't have friends who you can trust to teach you safely, or if you > want to significantly enhance the pace at which you learn, then by all > means, pay for professional instruction. > No, I'd rather bumble along with my half-safe friends and take a long time to get competent. Right. BTW, our club charges $50/weekend for experienced ACA instruction. No one has ever told me it wasn't worth it. And I have paid for NOC courses for myself. Money well spent, says I. Steve Cramer ACA OC Instructor Trainer Candidate Training Director, Georgia Canoe Association *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
George Bergeron wrote: > Not an indestructable attitude, I'm trying to find the median > on all > this. > The instructor I'm referring to is half my age (he's 23) and > big on > the "adrenaline" stuff. He's an avid fan of surf yakking, likes to > head out > in storms and heavy seas, and is beginning to get serious about white > water > and diving off waterfalls in a boat. So that's one end of the kayak > paradigm. > > On the other end, I paddle with people who never go out in > open > surf, stay away from rough water, and just plain don't roll. That's > maybe > the other end. > > There's a creew in Seattle that has practice sessions before > group > paddles around the Gulf Islands. That seems somewhere in the middle. > > So I'm "testing the waters," trying to appraise what sort of > skills > I need to yak safely where I want to go. I suppose what I'm trying to > figure > is if the proposed lessons are training me to be a kayaking "hot-dog" > or > just ensuring that I don't end up being "turkey sausage." > > > Learning to roll is _much_ easier with the help of a friend or an > instructor. I read and read and flailed about for weeks on my own. > (Boy was my wet exit smooth!) Then a single day working with a > patient friend and I was rolling. Knowing how to roll is not a bad > thing, not knowing how to roll is not a bad thing either. Being able > to quickly and reliably self-rescue is a very, very good thing - > regardless of the conditions that one chooses to paddle in - and it > doesn't matter how you do it. > _Rescue_ skills are not ordinarily needed when one is paddling in > conditions that are comfortable and match the paddler's expectations. > The surf-yakker's roll is not a "rescue" skill per se - it's simply a > part of the normal and expected conditions. It's when the conditions > _change_ that rescue skills may come into play. Most of us (ok, it's > a gross generalization) won't set out on a journey in conditions that > we feel are dangerous - but sometimes even benign conditions can turn > nasty with frightening rapidity. Having a skill set that enables you > to deal with conditions beyond the expected is what I feel constitutes > good rescue skills - whether they be self rescue or directed at > providing rescue to others (both are important). Maybe it's that old > Boy Scout adage that was drilled into me so many years ago - "Be > Prepared". There aren't any penalty points in this game for knowing > too much - the penalties for not knowing enough can be pretty harsh. > > Dave Seng > Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Geo. Your post brings up some very good questions that I would like to comment on. These are really just my opinions, although I cannot help myself in writing as if my opinions were gospel. It's a bad habit I picked up as a TA. On Sat, 16 May 1998, Geo. Bergeron wrote: > An ACA Instructor is trying to convince me that I need bracing and > rolling classes. I have huge problems with spending money on stuff I can't > hold in my hand. (Hey! The govt. paid for my degrees!) I pretty much taught myself how to paddle, from reading books, and from watching and copying others. I think I have the critical mindset to effectively evaluate my skills compared to a mental image gained from a book. It also really helps to have friends who have more skill or knowledge than yourself (for me, one friend has been George Gronseth). It also really helps to paddle in an environment where skill is a necessity, without which you will get into trouble. For me, this was the whitewater environment, which provides constant feedback on bracing and rolling in a safe setting. Unfortunately, I think the sea does not provide this kind of feedback until the conditions are very unsafe. In short, I think some of the more motivated people can effectively self-teach themselves to a high degree of competence, but that this is a rare occurence. (Side note: should we take a poll on how the readers learned their skills?) However for the majority of folks, lessons from skilled instructors can save a LOT of time and increase safety tremendously. The trick is to find an instructor good enough to markedly improve your skills in the shortest amount of time possible. One person whom many people say this about is George Gronseth, although I bet there are plently of other unsung heroes out there. > > I have a dock on a lake where I can practice without current in fairly > tepid water. I plan to do some "dockside" work to develop a "bombproof" E. > Roll. I have a "curriculum" all laid out. . . start with holding the edge of > the dock and get a feel for the roll of my boat, work on a "snap" with my > hand on the dock. Next, work on a roll with a paddle float attached to the > blade. Move on to the roll with a paddle. . . I've been told that extending > the paddle and holding the blade in the "weak" hand is a good method > initially. I've read several works on the E. Roll, including Hutchinson's > out of print book on rolling. I'm a skilled reader (M.A. Lit) and my > learning style is to get several books and bone up (OK, teaching > certificates and classroom experience too. . .) What you describe is not a "bombproof" roll. Bombproof is a much a state of mind as well as a physical skill. Bombproof means "I am not coming out of my boat except as an absolute last resort, because swimming is a much worse option than trying one more roll." To be bombproof, you will need an offside roll at the minimum, and 40 different ways to roll as a maximum (e.g. john heath's video of Jon Peterson exhibiting Greenland rolling). And you will need to test your roll in tough conditions such as whitewater or big ocean surf. One really good book on rolling is "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond", I forget the author, though I could look it up at home. > > Ultimately I'd like to be able to roll without a paddle. I'm a very > strong swimmer and have a powerful stroke. I'm also very comfortable with > being upside-down underwater. I know that the Aleuts can roll with a rock in > their hand, and I've seen white-water dudes roll with a beer in the hand. . > . I know that this is possible. These are good tricks, and require very positive outfitting of the boat to not waste any hipsnap energy. Good outfitting is so critical to good paddling, but it so often overlooked. > > Now. . . my real question. I can get back in the boat, and have a > wet-suit/dry-top combo that will save my butt et al from the hypothermia. . > . I'm really comfortable solo in my boat in stormy seas on the order of 3 > foot plus. . . I've never come close to capsizing even in some good storms > and heavy seas. So just how skilled should I be when paddling way off shore > on the Columbia? > You should have a proven bombproof roll as I tried to describe above, as a minimum, and also a lot of caution. Good luck developing your roll! Kevin whilden *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
George, What Kevin mentioned about (e.g. john heath's video of Jon Peterson exhibiting Greenland rolling), I would highly recommend viewing it if you haven't had opportunity. Watching it for the third times leaves me with a much stronger mental image of what is expected of me by my WW-instructors for grasping and mastering a roll with its many methods. Great video! All the best, Philip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> tremendously. The trick is to find an instructor good enough to > markedly > improve your skills in the shortest amount of time possible. One > person > Instruction without practice is soon only a foggy memory. If I don't use it, I loose it and that goes for other things as well (for me). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> learning safe for you. You might not have the experience or knowledge > to > make this judgement for yourself, but you MUST place your trust in > your > friends wisely and deliberately. I can tell a great story about my > first > And you life? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-05-20 15:26:09 EDT, Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com writes: << Instruction without practice is soon only a foggy memory. If I don't use it, I loose it and that goes for other things as well (for me). >> This is a good point. I paid for roll instruction and completed a roll that frist night. This did not equal a usable roll. It was three years before I had a BP roll. But I did not know that until after the fact. My second year Kayaking I want to the surf pummel event at LaPush WA. It called for a B.P. roll, I had my “Pool proof roll” and I ended up an example in George’s Sea Kayaker safety column. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-05-18 10:39:31 EDT, Robert_at_Starling.Com writes: << better seamanship and to improve technique so that we can make the next step from Four Star Sea Proficiency to Five Star >> Is someone handing out star's? Do you get to pin them on your PFD. What country is this happening in, the UK? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:07 AM 5/21/98 EDT, someone wrote: >Is someone handing out star's? Do you get to >pin them on your PFD. What country is this happening in, the UK? The program we study under is BCU though it really doesn't matter whether it is BCU or ACA. No one hands out assessments (Stars), you study, practice, work with coaches and you earn them by passing an assessment. Yes, you get a certificate and a patch that you could put on a jacket or PFD I suppose. But the purpose is not to wear a "badge" of accomplishment, it is to improve seamanship, skills and abilities and thus confidence. Our goal was and continues to be becoming well rounded paddlers in all areas of sea kayaking, not just the mastery of a few dozen different paddle strokes or the ability to roll. Reading moving water, navigation, first aid, trip planning, rescue skills, tides and currents, plus group leadership are all interrelated components of a well rounded instructional program. Best regards, ________________________________________________________ Robert Starling Member ASMP / APSG / PPA Starling Productions, Inc. Orlando, Florida Phone 407 521-0041 Fax 407 521-0031 http://www.starling.com NetGuide Magazine Internet Site Of The Day *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> The program we study under is BCU though it really doesn't matter > whether it > is BCU or ACA. No one hands out assessments (Stars), you study, > practice, > work with coaches and you earn them by passing an assessment. > Ok, I give up. I know what ACA is. What's BCU? British Columbia University? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 21 May 1998, Sisler, Clyde wrote: > > > The program we study under is BCU though it really doesn't matter > > whether it > > is BCU or ACA. No one hands out assessments (Stars), you study, > > practice, > > work with coaches and you earn them by passing an assessment. > > > Ok, I give up. I know what ACA is. What's BCU? British > Columbia University? british canoe union [i believe] they call kayaks [what we'd call kayaks] canoes!! mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark----- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: Do not read this fortune under penalty of law. Violators will be prosecuted. (Penal Code sec. 2.3.2 (II.a.)) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
mark wrote: >british canoe union [i believe] > > they call kayaks [what we'd call kayaks] canoes!! Ahhh, the finer semantics of paddle sports ..... In the UK its simple, if you paddle it about then it is a canoe. For those who find this concept a tad difficult to grasp, here is a simple reminder of what we eccentric British might be gibbering on about: Your kayak = canoe (although possibly 'sea canoe', depending on morphology) Your canoe = canoe (although a few of the more enlightened might refer to this type of canoe as a 'canadian') Your sit on top = hmmm, never actually seen one of those funny looking things, so I don't know what anyone would call them (certainly not kayak, that's for sure). Look like most of them would make good punts, but I expect they would most probably be called canoes. Simple ? In about an hour I will be going sea canoeing, in my kayak. Cheers Colin Calder 57º19'N 2º10'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Colin Calder wrote: > > mark wrote: > > >british canoe union [i believe] > > > > they call kayaks [what we'd call kayaks] canoes!! > > Ahhh, the finer semantics of paddle sports ..... > In the UK its simple, if you paddle it about then it is a canoe. > > For those who find this concept a tad difficult to grasp, here is a simple > reminder of what we eccentric British might be gibbering on about: > > Your kayak = canoe (although possibly 'sea canoe', depending on morphology) > Your canoe = canoe (although a few of the more enlightened might refer to > this type of canoe as a 'canadian') > Your sit on top = hmmm, never actually seen one of those funny looking > things, so I don't know what anyone would call them (certainly not kayak, > that's for sure). Look like most of them would make good punts, but I > expect they would most probably be called canoes. > > Simple ? > > In about an hour I will be going sea canoeing, in my kayak. > > Cheers > > Colin Calder > 57º19'N 2º10'W > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** Kia Ora, Now that is funny ( strange ?} few hours ago I returned from a little *seakayaking trip in my seakayak*here in this part of the British Commonwealth.:) But call them what you like as long as you enjoy it. Regards Eddie. PS. We have also on or two BCU instructors floating about here in Auckland , they are pretty good . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Ahhh, the finer semantics of paddle sports ..... > In the UK its simple, if you paddle it about then it is a canoe. > > For those who find this concept a tad difficult to grasp, here is a > simple > reminder of what we eccentric British might be gibbering on about: > > Your kayak = canoe (although possibly 'sea canoe', depending on > morphology) > Your canoe = canoe (although a few of the more enlightened might > refer to > this type of canoe as a 'canadian') > Your sit on top = hmmm, never actually seen one of those funny > looking > things, so I don't know what anyone would call them (certainly not > kayak, > that's for sure). Look like most of them would make good punts, but I > expect they would most probably be called canoes. > > Simple ? > > In about an hour I will be going sea canoeing, in my kayak. > Oh, I get it. The Alaskan Eskimos have always paddled canoes while the Seminole Indians in Florida have always paddled Canadian canoes. I'm a little fuzzy though, on how the Canadian canoes got all the way down to Florida. That would be an interesting story. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Colin wrote; >Ahhh, the finer semantics of paddle sports ..... >In the UK its simple, if you paddle it about then it is a canoe. > >For those who find this concept a tad difficult to grasp, here is a simple >reminder of what we eccentric British might be gibbering on about: (SNIP) Reminds me of the old joke about the American who was driving in Britain and stopped for gas. The attendant asked if he would like his windscreen cleaned and the American said it was properly called a windshield. After all, the Americans invented the automobile. To which the Brit replied, "Yes, you invented the automobile but we invented the language." Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:49 PDT