A friend asked me what the difference was between an "advanced" sea kayak and a beginner/advanced beginner sea kayak. I'm having trouble coming up with an explanation. Is it width, volume, length, outfitting? Initial stability? If it's outfitting does that mean a fully outfitted Chinook is an advanced boat? ;-) I would expect to classify sea kayaks with a beam under 21 inches (53 cm) as advanced. But width alone seems like a very weak way of defining an what makes an advanced boat. Besides that would make my 22 inch beam VCP PinTail a beginner boat ;-) kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> A friend asked me what the difference was between an > "advanced" sea kayak and a beginner/advanced beginner sea kayak. > > I'm having trouble coming up with an explanation. Why should there be an explanation? Certain features may make a boat easier for a beginner to use, such as a big, wide sit-on-top, but if you are using that boat to drag around a bunch of scuba gear, maybe it is the perfect boat for a very experienced paddler. If we are saying that "advanced" simply means that it would be difficult for a beginning paddler to use to effectly meet their criteria, then low initial stability and narrow beam would make a boat advanced. > If it's outfitting does that mean a fully outfitted Chinook is > an advanced boat? ;-) Ummmm, if you were going to do an absolutely "advanced" trip like cross from W Palm Beach to Grand Bahama Is, would you rather be in a Chinook, or a 20" beam slickster? I'd want the Chinook, loaded with lots and lots of freshwater, simple food, etc... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Ummmm, if you were going to do an absolutely "advanced" trip > like cross from W Palm Beach to Grand Bahama Is, would you > rather be in a Chinook, or a 20" beam slickster? I'd want > the Chinook, loaded with lots and lots of freshwater, simple > food, etc... > You folks are confusing beam with stability and whether or not that makes a beginner boat. The Chinook is a beginner boat because it is very difficult to lean and hard to move. It has the volume of an expedition boat which makes it purpose contradictory; if you are a beginner you should not be in an expedition. Now let us pick another wide boat, the Skerray. It is 24 inches wide, but it leans on its side and rolls much easier than my 20 inch boat. That is an advanced kayak. It is wide, but in the hands of a beginner its good qualities are wasted. I am sure John Winters can expand on this for the nth time. - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
An advanced kayak has a higher level of education than a beginner sea kayak. Thus an advanced sea kayak will be better able to keep you on course and tell you about the flora and fauna you are viewing. R. Walker wrote: > > A friend asked me what the difference was between an > > "advanced" sea kayak and a beginner/advanced beginner sea kayak. > > > > I'm having trouble coming up with an explanation. > > Why should there be an explanation? Certain features > may make a boat easier for a beginner to use, such as > a big, wide sit-on-top, but if you are using that boat to > drag around a bunch of scuba gear, maybe it is the > perfect boat for a very experienced paddler. > > If we are saying that "advanced" simply means that it > would be difficult for a beginning paddler to use > to effectly meet their criteria, then low initial > stability and narrow beam would make a boat advanced. > > > If it's outfitting does that mean a fully outfitted Chinook is > > an advanced boat? ;-) > > Ummmm, if you were going to do an absolutely "advanced" trip > like cross from W Palm Beach to Grand Bahama Is, would you > rather be in a Chinook, or a 20" beam slickster? I'd want > the Chinook, loaded with lots and lots of freshwater, simple > food, etc... > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
R. Walker <rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com> wrote: >> Kirk Olsen wrote: >> A friend asked me what the difference was between an >> "advanced" sea kayak and a beginner/advanced beginner sea kayak. >> >> I'm having trouble coming up with an explanation. > Why should there be an explanation? The friend is looking to build a skin/frame sea kayak that would appeal to an "advanced" paddler. I didn't like the fact that about all I could come up with was "narrower with less initial stability". I can come up with a host of design considerations for canoes, but not for a sea kayak. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Kirk Olsen <kolsen_at_imagelan.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 12:25 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] advanced sea kayak > >A friend asked me what the difference was between an >"advanced" sea kayak and a beginner/advanced beginner sea kayak. > >I'm having trouble coming up with an explanation. > >Is it width, volume, length, outfitting? >Initial stability? > >If it's outfitting does that mean a fully outfitted Chinook is >an advanced boat? ;-) > >I would expect to classify sea kayaks with a beam under 21 inches (53 cm) >as advanced. But width alone seems like a very weak way of defining an >what makes an advanced boat. Besides that would make my 22 inch beam >VCP PinTail a beginner boat ;-) > >kirk > An Advanced Sea Kayak is any boat that is difficult to handle in rough conditions and requires an Advanced Kayaker. Therefore all boats that weathercock badly, broach quickly and uncontrollably, bury their bows surfing, etc., are Advanced. Also, any boat that is Twittery is necessarily advanced, no matter what its beam. In such a boat an Unadvanced paddler will not be able to lean properly. There is the well known Coefficient of Twitter associated with each sea kayak which I have measured with my specially designed instruments. By my measurements the following boats, all of beam near 22", have the following Coefficients of Twitter, normalized to the range 1 to 10. Mariner II [2], Solstice GTS [3], Arctic Hawk [4], Seda Glider [3], Arluk 1.9 [8], Arluk 2 [7]. Therefore the Arluks are Advanced while the others are Unadvanced. Note that Advanced is not necessarily better than Unadvanced. Or is it? All other things being equal, are there any advantages to a high Coefficient of Twitter? Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio wrote; (SNIP) >You folks are confusing beam with stability and whether or not that >makes a beginner boat. > >The Chinook is a beginner boat because it is very difficult to lean >and hard to move. It has the volume of an expedition boat which makes >it purpose contradictory; if you are a beginner you should not be >in an expedition. > >Now let us pick another wide boat, the Skerray. It is 24 inches wide, >but it leans on its side and rolls much easier than my 20 inch boat. >That is an advanced kayak. It is wide, but in the hands of a beginner >its good qualities are wasted. I think the thing that makes a boat and "advanced" boat or a "beginners" boat is its capabilities not the difficulty in keeping it upright or even its speed. There isn't a lot one can do with some boats beyond just go for a casual paddle on the lake. Other boats are capable of open water crossings and some are quite stable and some are quite tippy. I think people like to refer to tippy boats as advanced boats just because they are more difficult to paddle or hard to keep upright. I don't think that makes them advanced boats. It just makes them tippy boats. Certainly some of the folding boats are very stable but could you call them beginner's boats given the accomplishments of the type? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:10 AM 5/7/98 -0400, John Winters wrote: >Julio wrote; > >(SNIP) > >>You folks are confusing beam with stability and whether or not that >>makes a beginner boat. >> >>The Chinook is a beginner boat because it is very difficult to lean >>and hard to move. It has the volume of an expedition boat which makes >>it purpose contradictory; if you are a beginner you should not be >>in an expedition. > >I think the thing that makes a boat and "advanced" boat or a "beginners" >boat is its capabilities not the difficulty in keeping it upright or even >its speed. >I think people like to refer to tippy boats as advanced boats just because >they are more difficult to paddle or hard to keep upright. I don't think >that makes them advanced boats. It just makes them tippy boats. Certainly >some of the folding boats are very stable but could you call them >beginner's boats given the accomplishments of the type? > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > With the Chinook style hull that has probably more miles under it than most others is like a aircraft carrier as far as stability. I think that either tippy or performance would be a better word for a advance kayak. If you consider a kayak that you are uncomfortable paddling(beyond your skill level) in as performance then skill level comes to play, what would be advanced for one might not be for another. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry wrote; >An Advanced Sea Kayak is any boat that is difficult to handle in rough >conditions and requires an Advanced Kayaker. Therefore all boats that >weathercock badly, broach quickly and uncontrollably, bury their bows >surfing, etc., are Advanced. Some of the Candaian readers may not be familiar witrh the term "Advanced". > >Also, any boat that is Twittery is necessarily advanced, no matter what its >beam. In such a boat an Unadvanced paddler will not be able to lean >properly. There is the well known Coefficient of Twitter associated with >each sea kayak which I have measured with my specially designed instruments. >By my measurements the following boats, all of beam near 22", have the >following Coefficients of Twitter, normalized to the range 1 to 10. Mariner >II [2], Solstice GTS [3], Arctic Hawk [4], Seda Glider [3], Arluk 1.9 [8], >Arluk 2 [7]. Therefore the Arluks are Advanced while the others are >Unadvanced. > >Note that Advanced is not necessarily better than Unadvanced. Or is it? >All other things being equal, are there any advantages to a high Coefficient >of Twitter? Absolutely. Every Twit should have a high coefficient. Or is that high colonic? I think it should also be added that some boats have a pseudo Twitter. The pseudo Twitter disguises a low Twitter as a high Twitter boat for those who think high twitter is the better Twitter just because the Inuit used high Twitter boats or, as the case may be, the Brits. Or is it the other way around? My personal preference is a mid-Twitter boat. Moderation in all things. Glad to see Gerald adopting the scientific method. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>>A friend asked me what the difference was between an >>"advanced" sea kayak and a beginner/advanced beginner sea kayak. To a large degree....its the paddler. Robert Starling ________________________________________________________ Robert Starling Member ASMP / PPA Starling Productions, Inc. Orlando, Florida Phone 800 361-0041 Fax 407 521-0031 http://www.starling.com NetGuide Magazine Internet Site Of The Day *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Starling wrote: > > >>A friend asked me what the difference was between an > >>"advanced" sea kayak and a beginner/advanced beginner sea kayak. > > To a large degree....its the paddler. > > Robert Starling I agree: A beginner in an advanced boat is a beginner. An advanced paddler in a beginner\start up boat is an advanced paddler. I think we sometimes get caught up in the thought that gear maketh the person. Years ago, dozens of beginners were buying Nordkapps because they were advanced boats and believing that they would become advanced with the boats. Indeed in the hands of the experts paddling and demonstrating them, the boats did wonderful things. But, it became pretty evident then that the best way for an experienced person to buy a Nordkapp was to buy one on the used market dumped there by some fearful beginners scared out of their wits by the boat. The advanced boats can do wonderful things in the hands of experienced paddlers with superb skills. But beginners and intermediate paddlers are much better off in boats more suited for them. They may never develop the skills to take advantage of an advanced boat and may have lots of hairy experiences they could avoid in a more suitable boat. I recall many years ago the experience of two paddlers in horredous conditions off the New Jersey coast. One, an instructor with impeccable rolling skills and in an easily leaned, responsive British boat. The other, a darn good paddler in a plastic Chinook who was too cheap to buy a glass boat or still working out which one he really wanted. The instructor got hit with breaking waves in high seas. Rolled up, got dumped, rolled up, got dumped again, etc. He just could never get settled enough before being hit in an instant with another dumper. Finally he wet exited. The guy in the Chinook managed to broach and go into a brace on one of the waves and rode in with it and subsequent ones for a half a mile. He never dumped or had to roll (although he was a good roller but not on the level of the other guy). The guy in the Chinook took advantage of the initial stability of the boat plus its moderate lean capacity to get himself out of the predicament. The advanced paddler in the advanced boat, for all of his skills, couldn't keep up with the situation. This is a true story, not made up. I wasn't there but I talked to the two extensively as well as to a couple in a double Klepper, who also dumped. Both had minimal skills, one having never been in a kayak but well experienced in canoeing. She admitted to leaning too far over with her paddle (usisng it like a canoe paddle) and both throwing the boat off balance and getting it caught slightly under the boat. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Robert Starling wrote. > >>A friend asked me what the difference was between an > >>"advanced" sea kayak and a beginner/advanced beginner sea kayak. > > To a large degree....its the paddler. > > Robert Starling > I think an advanced boat, is one that will kindly get its owner from point A to point B safely, even tho the owner may not be "advanced".(maybe I should say, even inspite of the actions of the owner):>) James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dana wrote; (SNIP) > > >With the Chinook style hull that has probably more miles under it than most >others is like a aircraft carrier as far as stability. I think that either >tippy or performance would be a better word for a advance kayak. If you >consider a kayak that you are uncomfortable paddling(beyond your skill >level) in as performance then skill level comes to play, what would be >advanced for one might not be for another. There is a semantical problem here. advanced (ād-vānst´) adjective 1. Highly developed or complex. 2. Being at a higher level than others: an advanced text in physics. 3. Ahead of the times; progressive: advanced teaching methods. Excerpted from The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition Š 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. Perhaps we are confusing "advanced" with "difficult" or "challenging". A boat could be difficult or challenging and still be rudimentary. For example Fig. 199 from Adney and Chappelle that wuold challenge any paddler but is a genuinely lousy boat with almost no redeeming qualities. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:38 AM 5/11/98 -0400, John Winters wrote: >Dana wrote; > >(SNIP) > >> >> >>With the Chinook style hull that has probably more miles under it than >most >>others is like a aircraft carrier as far as stability. I think that either >>tippy or performance would be a better word for a advance kayak. If you >>consider a kayak that you are uncomfortable paddling(beyond your skill >>level) in as performance then skill level comes to play, what would be >>advanced for one might not be for another. > >There is a semantical problem here. > >advanced (ād-vānst´) adjective >1. Highly developed or complex. >2. Being at a higher level than others: an advanced text in physics. >3. Ahead of the times; progressive: advanced teaching methods. > >Excerpted from The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, >Third Edition Š 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version >licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in >accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights >reserved. > >Perhaps we are confusing "advanced" with "difficult" or "challenging". A >boat could be difficult or challenging and still be rudimentary. For >example Fig. 199 from Adney and Chappelle that wuold challenge any paddler >but is a genuinely lousy boat with almost no redeeming qualities. > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ eer I couldn't of said it best , I think, maybe Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:49 PDT