Mark Zen wrote: > >haven't heard from any river runners on this ... let's hear something > ;-) > > to start off, are you safer on the river, since, by default, you are > at > the lowest point possible?? we've watched some pretty hairy storms > move > in, and have almost always managed to be at our cars by the time the > lightening was striking, and there has always been [at least with > larger > groups] a mixed consensus [sp?] as to get out and hide near a tree > [which > i disagree with] or keep trucking and head for the cars, which i > support, > telling everyone to hug the banks... > > comments?? [oh this should be fun!!!]< > > > A brief response from a former river runner - I used to opt for > finding a spot on the bank that looked fairly safe (ie. low and open) > and stay put there until the danger has passed. Hugging the banks > seems ok, but I feel that _if_ there is a lightning strike and someone > in the group is hit that it would be much more simple to deal with if > people are on shore as opposed to floating in the water. Having once > been about 50 feet away from a tree that was hit (and blasted wide > open!) I sincerely think that taking shelter at the base of a tree is > a BAD idea. > > Dave Seng > Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I researched the subject of kayaking and lightening about five or six years ago for an article in my newsletter. I read all I could and talked to people at NOAA and the Coast Guard among other sources. Just some general conclusions: Overall, lightening is so unpredictable in its behavior that there really are no guarantees no matter what you do. Case examples abound of rowboats alongside sailing vessels on a dock or beach and the rowboat getting hit!!! So much for hard and fast rules. However, there are certainly somethings to do. 1. Do get to shore if you can. 2. When paddling, at any cost, avoid being in the high strike zone that is roughly about 50 feet or so on either side of the water line, on shore and in the water. If you don't think you can clear that area while paddling, you would be better off rafting up with others or crawling down in your boat and hope you can stay upright. The more stable the boat is on its own without your needing to brace, the easier it is to do this. Doubles are great for this. 3. Once on shore and cleared of this area and not under lone trees, assume the position described elsewhere. It basically resembles taking a shit only get lower and keep your head down. Keep your PFD under you as it will act as some minimal amount of insulation. This is similar to the principle used by mountaineers who squat on their coiled up climbing ropes. Whatever you do don't form any arcing bridges such as what a football player's stance with several points of contact with the ground. You don't want to act like a battery polarization. 4. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but being in a folding kayak with rubber under you may offer an extra level of protection. It is similar to the principal of being in a car. The rubber tires insulate you from the ground even though you are in a metal cage!!! But you have to keep low. If you manage to drag your kayak far enough out of that high-strike zone at the water's edge, you may want to be in your boat especially if of non-conductive material. Rubber is obviously best but fiberglass and plastic are okay. But get in low, drop your head below the plain of the the cockpit rim. Again, these points are not fool-proof. Lightning is fickle. These pointers just help a bit, lessen your exposure. But there is no such thing as absolute safety re. lightning. Another point, for those who have a mast on their kayaks for sailing. There is such a thing as a zone of protection that is created by the mast. It is approximately, if I recall correctly from the article, a zone whose radius is half the height of the mast. So a 12 foot mast would create a 6 ft radius circle around the base of the mast (it may be the full 12 ft. I can't remember). But only if the mast is grounded. The suggestion for a boat like a kayak or rowboat with a mast is to have a thick copper wire running from where the mast partner is to overhang into the water enough inches to remain in the water while heeled over. Again, all this talk of grounding masts doesn't work at times. Some sail boats have had the bottom of their hulls blown out at the mast base when struck by lightning. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
While I agree on most of what you said, I would have to strongly disagree with you on one point and question one other. I would argue against rafting up! I have seen the results of this in whole herds of cattle were killed after bunching up together in a storm. Also, I believe the reason that a person is safer in a auto during lighting and what protects them when an electrical power line falls across the auto, is not the rubber on the tires so much as the faraday sp? box effect. I may stand corrected on this, but I believe I'm right. If so, then the folding kayak skin wouldn't add any protection.(at least the same as an auto does) James rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > I researched the subject of kayaking and lightening about five or six > years ago for an article in my newsletter. I read all I could and > talked to people at NOAA and the Coast Guard among other sources. > > Just some general conclusions: > > Overall, lightening is so unpredictable in its behavior that there > really are no guarantees no matter what you do. Case examples abound of > rowboats alongside sailing vessels on a dock or beach and the rowboat > getting hit!!! So much for hard and fast rules. However, there are > certainly somethings to do. > > 1. Do get to shore if you can. > > 2. When paddling, at any cost, avoid being in the high strike zone > that is roughly about 50 feet or so on either side of the water line, on > shore and in the water. If you don't think you can clear that area > while paddling, you would be better off rafting up with others or > crawling down in your boat and hope you can stay upright. The more > stable the boat is on its own without your needing to brace, the easier > it is to do this. Doubles are great for this. > > 3. Once on shore and cleared of this area and not under lone trees, > assume the position described elsewhere. It basically resembles taking > a shit only get lower and keep your head down. Keep your PFD under you > as it will act as some minimal amount of insulation. This is similar to > the principle used by mountaineers who squat on their coiled up climbing > ropes. Whatever you do don't form any arcing bridges such as what a > football player's stance with several points of contact with the > ground. You don't want to act like a battery polarization. > > 4. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but being in a folding kayak > with rubber under you may offer an extra level of protection. It is > similar to the principal of being in a car. The rubber tires insulate > you from the ground even though you are in a metal cage!!! But you have > to keep low. If you manage to drag your kayak far enough out of that > high-strike zone at the water's edge, you may want to be in your boat > especially if of non-conductive material. Rubber is obviously best but > fiberglass and plastic are okay. But get in low, drop your head below > the plain of the the cockpit rim. > > Again, these points are not fool-proof. Lightning is fickle. These > pointers just help a bit, lessen your exposure. But there is no such > thing as absolute safety re. lightning. > > Another point, for those who have a mast on their kayaks for sailing. > There is such a thing as a zone of protection that is created by the > mast. It is approximately, if I recall correctly from the article, a > zone whose radius is half the height of the mast. So a 12 foot mast > would create a 6 ft radius circle around the base of the mast (it may be > the full 12 ft. I can't remember). But only if the mast is grounded. > The suggestion for a boat like a kayak or rowboat with a mast is to have > a thick copper wire running from where the mast partner is to overhang > into the water enough inches to remain in the water while heeled over. > Again, all this talk of grounding masts doesn't work at times. Some > sail boats have had the bottom of their hulls blown out at the mast base > when struck by lightning. > > ralph diaz > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
First rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > 4. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but being in a folding kayak > > with rubber under you may offer an extra level of protection. It is > > similar to the principal of being in a car. The rubber tires insulate > > you from the ground even though you are in a metal cage!!! But you have > > to keep low. If you manage to drag your kayak far enough out of that > > high-strike zone at the water's edge, you may want to be in your boat > > especially if of non-conductive material. Rubber is obviously best but > > fiberglass and plastic are okay. But get in low, drop your head below > > the plain of the the cockpit rim. [snip] Then James Lofton wrote: > Also, I believe the reason that a person is safer in a auto during > lighting and what protects them when an electrical power line falls > across the auto, is not the rubber on the tires so much as the faraday > sp? box effect. I may stand corrected on this, but I believe I'm right. > If so, then the folding kayak skin wouldn't add any protection.(at least > the same as an auto does) [snip] Yup, James, that's my understanding, also. The electrical field inside a completely enclosed METALLIC cage is zero -- so the metallic cage (body of the car) protects its contents, *but not the car,* including its tires. After the strike(s), it pays to get the heck out of the vehicle, in case of fire, etc. Of course, all bets are off if someone is touching the metallic surface of the car body. Now, if the folder were a metal-framed craft, and you could suspend yourself between its members without touching any ... anyone for levitation? Ralph, better work on that! <G> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > First rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > 4. I can't be absolutely certain of this, but being in a folding kayak > > > with rubber under you may offer an extra level of protection. It is > > > similar to the principal of being in a car. The rubber tires insulate > > > you from the ground even though you are in a metal cage!!! But you have > > > to keep low. If you manage to drag your kayak far enough out of that > > > high-strike zone at the water's edge, you may want to be in your boat > > > especially if of non-conductive material. Rubber is obviously best but > > > fiberglass and plastic are okay. But get in low, drop your head below > > > the plain of the the cockpit rim. > [snip] > > Then James Lofton wrote: > > > Also, I believe the reason that a person is safer in a auto during > > lighting and what protects them when an electrical power line falls > > across the auto, is not the rubber on the tires so much as the faraday > > sp? box effect. I may stand corrected on this, but I believe I'm right. > > If so, then the folding kayak skin wouldn't add any protection.(at least > > the same as an auto does) > [snip] > > Yup, James, that's my understanding, also. The electrical field inside > a completely enclosed METALLIC cage is zero -- so the metallic cage > (body of the car) protects its contents, *but not the car,* including > its tires. After the strike(s), it pays to get the heck out of the > vehicle, in case of fire, etc. Of course, all bets are off if someone > is touching the metallic surface of the car body. > > Now, if the folder were a metal-framed craft, and you could suspend > yourself between its members without touching any ... anyone for > levitation? Ralph, better work on that! <G> Interesting observations. A few years back, I think in Rhode Island, several people took shelter in a steel rod reinforced old concrete bunker during a storm. It had steel rods totally around them embedded and intermeshed in the concrete roof, walls and floors. The people inside got electrocuted. Their metal cage, in effect, was grounded and so were they. Also indeed if what is protecting the contents of the car when hit by a downed power line live wire is only the electric field around the metal cage of the car, why do people who try to step out, get killed by electric shock? Would the same protection apply for people in a car hit by a power line if instead of on tires, the car was up on stands, say a car whose tires have been stolen, not unusual in some riskier put-in parking areas :-)? BTW, my understanding is that people caught in cars when hit by a power line _have_ touched metal within the car with no effect because indeed the metal cage is a better conductor than their ungrounded bodies. Am I understanding that the argument here is against rubber as an insulator or just the car analogy? Also, what of the examples I give above regarding the steel cage--the steel rod reinforcement in the concrete bunker, the person stepping out of the car with a power line on it, in which both cases the person fried, whereas the person touching metal within the car does not. I am just asking. Ralph (who only paddles foldables with wooden frames until his levitation skills improve). :-) -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> 2. When paddling, at any cost, avoid being in the high strike zone > that is roughly about 50 feet or so on either side of the water line, > on > I don't understand what you mean. What waterline are you referring to? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On 05/07/98 14:40:36 you wrote: > >> 2. When paddling, at any cost, avoid being in the high strike zone >> that is roughly about 50 feet or so on either side of the water line, >> on >> > I don't understand what you mean. What waterline are you >referring to? The shoreline. Sorry that I put it too awkwardly to understand. The 50 feet is not a hard and fast rule. ralph ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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