Back from the Newfound Woodworks Rendezvous and it was great. So many strippers that I called my broker and had him order varnish futures. If you are interested in building a stripper this is the place to be. Lots of builders willing to tell about their trials, tribulations and successes (Mostly successes). I also paddled Nick Schade's boats. They are excellent designs and I am confident they would be as good in rough water as they were in the calm confines of the lake. While I was away it was nice to see Official Canadian Ballast Rocks (TM) being discussed in the appropriate tongue and cheek manner. My apologies to those who took it too seriously. Long time readers of Paddlewise and WaveLength know that I often mix humour (well, my kind of humour anyway) and serious content in an effort to convey a message. I appreciate Richard Culpeper taking over the rock collecting while I was away. Unfortunately Richard is not fully qualified and if you got rocks that glowed in the dark please dispose of them at your local Nuclear Power generating station. One of the dangers of collecting rocks on the north shore of Superior is that radioactive rocks are an all to common occurrence. Men, if you have used the rocks a sperm count is in order. Women should not be surprised if their next child has unusual features. On paddles, Length seems to depend on style. The low flat paddling style may be best performed with a longish paddle while the more vertical style seems best with a shorter paddle. My paddle is 205 cm and that is a bit longish. Some time back I gave a talk on paddles and several local paddlers tried the shorter paddles. Most not only liked them more (lighter weight maybe) but felt they helped body rotation. One fellow keeps cutting his down and says that, at the current rate of reduction, he will have eliminated the paddle entirely by 2002. I don't know why it should take so long. He could just buy a cat and be done with it or, failing a cat, he could buy a pair of crotch dirigibles. The paddle is a most unsatisfactory means of propulsion. As the Prof. Inverbon points out the Inuit only used paddles for male coming of age rites. It was the British who confused these playful games with kayak propulsion. A few years back an Inuit told me how offended they were that white women used the paddle. This is apparently forbidden in the Inuit culture. He said they tried to explain the rites to British anthropologists and missionaries but the Brits thought they were inviting them to sleep with the Inuit wives. The harm done by this sad misunderstanding is well known. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Length seems to depend on style. The low flat paddling style may be best > performed with a longish paddle while the more vertical style seems best > with a shorter paddle. My paddle is 205 cm and that is a bit longish. 205 cm is longish? That's 1 cm shorter than my WW paddle, which is longish for WW, true. I'm about to order a 225 Cricket. Mike is coming out with a new asymmetric blade that looks good for a higher angle style. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote; >205 cm is longish? That's 1 cm shorter than my WW paddle, which is >longish for WW, true. It seems to me that a paddle need be no longer than required for the job. For this it should be long enough to reach the water while using effective (and personal) biomechanical movements. From my own experience with my own boat and using my own style my own paddle appears to me about 5 cm too long since the paddle is immersed about 2-3 cm below the point where the shaft meets the top of the blade. I see several things impinging on length. Shoulder height above the water, boat beam, boat freeboard and depth at the cockpit, stroke style, blade length, and specific stroke requirements. There may be more. Since I am talking about a sea kayak paddle I am not sure one can apply the same thinking to whitewater although it might be interesting. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, John Winters wrote: > > >205 cm is longish? That's 1 cm shorter than my WW paddle, which is > >longish for WW, true. > > > It seems to me that a paddle need be no longer than required for the job. > For this it should be long enough to reach the water while using effective > (and personal) biomechanical movements. From my own experience with my own > boat and using my own style my own paddle appears to me about 5 cm too long > since the paddle is immersed about 2-3 cm below the point where the shaft > meets the top of the blade. I keep reading and hearing more and more about the need for short paddles. My first paddle was about 225, and my new one is 220. (I'm 5'3", my boat is 22 inches wide.) Around here - the Chesapeake Bay area, roughly - none of the folks selling gear stock paddles as short as 220, much less shorter. And it seems that the major commercial paddle makers - at least the ones whose literature I've looked at - don't even make anything shorter than 220, except for a few paddles intended for children. What gives? Are tastes changing on paddle length and the manufacturers aren't keeping up? Is everyone supposed to special order their paddles? Or buy long ones and cut them down? For that matter, how does one even try out a paddle as short as 200 (aside from a Greenland paddle, they are usually shorter) since stores don't seem to stock them? Am I missing something here? Joy Hecht Arlington VA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Joy E. Hecht wrote: > ... > Around here - the Chesapeake Bay area, roughly - none > of the folks selling gear stock paddles as short as 220, much less > shorter. ...<snip>... Paddles in the 210-215cm range are readily available in our area. The last time I went shopping for a paddle I was looking for something in this size range, and at a single retailer I could choose among glass or graphite or ultralight graphite, two-piece or one-piece, and (for the one-piece) feathered or unfeathered. Clearly, manufacturers do make paddles shorter than 220cm, although sometimes only in those models designed for a vertical stroke. (For example, Werner makes Kauaii and Molokai paddles down to 210cm as part of their regular line.) I suspect that your local retailers do not stock shorter paddles because the market is too thin in your area. I find it interesting that whitewater paddles are shorter than touring paddles. I use a 197cm whitewater paddle and a 215cm touring paddle. Why the difference in length? First, it isn't because whitewater boats are narrower. Every whitewater kayak that I have paddled is wider than my sea kayak. I think that the answer lies with the following: First, the combination of greater rocker and lower volume causes one to sit lower (relative to the water) in a whitewater kayak, which makes a shorter padddle more appropriate. Second, in whitewater paddling there is frequently the need for sudden, rapid acceleration. A shorter paddle acts like a lower gear, allowing a very high cadence for quick acceleration. Whitewater paddling effort occurs in spurts; the touring cadence is much more even. Third, the lack of directional stability in a whitewater kayak magnifies any inefficiency in the forward stroke. The "sweep" strokes that result from paddling with a low-angle technique and long paddles would not work well at moving a whitewater kayak forward. The inefficiency of such a stroke is masked by the greater directional stability of a sea kayak. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > --snip-- > I see several things impinging on length. Shoulder height above the water, > boat beam, boat freeboard and depth at the cockpit, stroke style, blade > length, and specific stroke requirements. There may be more. Since I am > talking about a sea kayak paddle I am not sure one can apply the same > thinking to whitewater although it might be interesting. --snip-- I would suggest adding stroke technique (e.g. high or low) and personal stroke style (e.g. amount of extension at catch). Yes, the same criteria apply to whitewater. Considerable attention is given to specific stroke requirements. For example, beginners often start with longer shafts for greater leverage when bracing and rolling. Advanced paddlers often go with shorter shafts, which are less awkward for verticle strokes such as the duffek, and which permit a faster stroke rate for sudden acceleration. You stated: "It seems to me that a paddle need be no longer than required for the job. For this it should be long enough to reach the water while using effective (and personal) biomechanical movements." I think this statement wraps it up nicely for sea kayaking, whitewater, and sprint. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Steve wrote; > > >205 cm is longish? That's 1 cm shorter than my WW paddle, which is > >longish for WW, true. > > It seems to me that a paddle need be no longer than required for the job. > For this it should be long enough to reach the water while using effective > (and personal) biomechanical movements. From my own experience with my own > boat and using my own style my own paddle appears to me about 5 cm too long > since the paddle is immersed about 2-3 cm below the point where the shaft > meets the top of the blade. > > I see several things impinging on length. Shoulder height above the water, > boat beam, boat freeboard and depth at the cockpit, stroke style, blade > length, and specific stroke requirements. There may be more. Since I am > talking about a sea kayak paddle I am not sure one can apply the same > thinking to whitewater although it might be interesting. John, I know your paddling background is canoeing. Is it possible that you are using a kayak paddle the way I see many canoeists do? They tend to treat the kayak paddle as an elongated canoe paddle with the upper part of the shaft almost perpendicular to the water when the lower blade is immersed. The flatter you keep a kayak paddle, the longer it generally has to be. But using a paddle in a near vertical position means you don't need much paddle length. I know a lot of advocates of short paddles for kayak touring. I don't recall any, even the most die-hard, using a 205 cm paddle. ralph > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph: I'm one of those diehards and I use a 205. It gives me the optimally efficient stroke using the high technique. I'm happy down to a 202. I don't like going more than 205 or less than 202 for my particular boat, body, and style. Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > I know a lot of advocates of short > paddles for kayak touring. I don't recall any, even the most die-hard, > using a 205 cm paddle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Joy wrote; (SNIP) > >What gives? Are tastes changing on paddle length and the manufacturers >aren't keeping up? Is everyone supposed to special order their paddles? >Or buy long ones and cut them down? For that matter, how does one even >try out a paddle as short as 200 (aside from a Greenland paddle, they are >usually shorter) since stores don't seem to stock them? > >Am I missing something here? I have asked retailers why they don't sell shorter paddles and they respond that people don't ask for them. When I asked people why they don't ask for them they responded that retailers didn't have them or that they had been told to use a longer paddle usually based on some anthropometric measurement or because so-and-so uses a paddle that long. I suspect the manufacturers make what is ordered - Hank, what say you on this? So, what came first? I suspect that early sea kayakers saw that many Inuit paddles were quite long and they also may have assumed that a paddle is a simple lever and longer is better. There may even be a subconscious macho thing going on similar to the canoe paddle thing (Big guys use big paddles, EH). Having a relatively complete woodworking shop allowed me to try dozens of paddles and paddle shapes every year and I just kept making and liking shorter and shorter paddles. A lot of this paddle and boat choice stuff may have to do with biomechanics and something called psychokinetics or perceived exertion. Maybe by the end of the reading season (remember when books were cheap and computers were expensive ;-)) I will have something to report back to Paddlewise. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; >I know your paddling background is canoeing. Is it possible that you >are using a kayak paddle the way I see many canoeists do? They tend to >treat the kayak paddle as an elongated canoe paddle with the upper part >of the shaft almost perpendicular to the water when the lower blade is >immersed. The flatter you keep a kayak paddle, the longer it generally >has to be. But using a paddle in a near vertical position means you >don't need much paddle length. I know a lot of advocates of short >paddles for kayak touring. I don't recall any, even the most die-hard, >using a 205 cm paddle. Yes, I do use a more upright stroke. This hits on the kind of thing I was talking about re: biomechanics. Jennifer Joy and I had a good discussion on this regarding what influences what. Do people use long paddles because it is better or them to paddle with a flat stroke or do they use a flat stroke because they have long paddles. I have no answers to that one. We often read about people liking long paddles (by long I would say in excess of 210 CM as an arbitrary cut-off although another dimension is welcome) while also reading about people liking short paddles (under 210 cm). Why the difference? As I mentioned, the answer may surface from what I am currently reading about psychokinetics. Dan's comments on whitewater paddles are interesting and worth some thought. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > Ralph wrote; > > >I know your paddling background is canoeing. Is it possible that you > >are using a kayak paddle the way I see many canoeists do? SNIPPED > > Yes, I do use a more upright stroke. This hits on the kind of thing I was > talking about re: biomechanics. Jennifer Joy and I had a good discussion on > this regarding what influences what. Do people use long paddles because it > is better or them to paddle with a flat stroke or do they use a flat stroke > because they have long paddles. > > I have no answers to that one. We often read about people liking long > paddles (by long I would say in excess of 210 CM as an arbitrary cut-off > although another dimension is welcome) while also reading about people > liking short paddles (under 210 cm). Why the difference? As I mentioned, > the answer may surface from what I am currently reading about > psychokinetics. Dan's comments on whitewater paddles are interesting and > worth some thought. A couple of more thoughts: 1. Interesting to have an arbitrary 210 cm dividing point when it is generally quite difficult to find any manufactured sea kayak or touring paddle below 220 cm. I am not arguing with the 210 cm divide. Just that it doesn't seem to conform with the real choices a paddler has when he or she wanders into a shop. It's like sitting in Brooklyn and deciding to categorize people as either Finnish speaking and English speaking. There aren't that many Finns around. 2. I doubt that there are universal biomechanics at work since human builds vary so greatly as does strength, stamina, motivation, etc. Perhaps kayak shops should have some measuring devices as do shoe stores to at least narrow needs in paddle length and blade shape. 3. Certainly a longer paddle begets flatter paddling and flatter paddling beckons for longer paddles. Same with shorter paddles, i.e. calling for closer more vertical strokes, etc. I think what happens in these arguments is that we stack up all those points that confirm our own style and paddle choice is "best." Me? I find myself gravitating toward shorter paddles although not quite to the cigar butt size that John favors (but perhaps I should stay away from any cigar reference in light of happenings in DC). Part of my motivation is that I have a reputation for favoring and promoting longer paddles in my book mainly with wide folding double kayaks in mind. That reputation told and retold led my good friend Larry Edwards of Baidarka Boats to say that I was recommending 9 foot paddles when I actually was talking about as large as 8 and 1/2 for paddles with longer blades such as the Camano and only for doubles. John will find his paddle length preference distorted down to 190 cm pretty soon. :-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >Yes, I do use a more upright stroke. This hits on the kind of thing I was >talking about re: biomechanics. Jennifer Joy and I had a good discussion on >this regarding what influences what. Do people use long paddles because it >is better or them to paddle with a flat stroke or do they use a flat stroke >because they have long paddles. > >I have no answers to that one. We often read about people liking long >paddles (by long I would say in excess of 210 CM as an arbitrary cut-off >although another dimension is welcome) while also reading about people >liking short paddles (under 210 cm). Why the difference? As I mentioned, >the answer may surface from what I am currently reading about >psychokinetics. Dan's comments on whitewater paddles are interesting and >worth some thought. > >Cheers, >John Winters >Redwing Designs >Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft >http://home.ican.net/~735769/ Here is why I like long paddles: I was using a 218 cm conventional paddle when I inherited a 246 cm narrow blade. I tried it over my regular 8 NM bi-weekly distance and found myself much less fatigued. My speed was the same (4 knots measured). Intrigued, I did numerous repeated time trials in different boats with both paddles. Same results, I consistently was less tired at the end of the 2 hours with the long narrow blade. Now I am an older guy (58) who never races, but I consider my 4 knot average over 2 hours to be respectable. The slower cadence of the longer paddle suits me. When I now switch back to the shorter, the stroke rate is not comfortable. I leave high cadence to the young bucks. Furthermore, the narrower the boat the better I like the longer paddle, especially in rough water. With the blade out from the boat in a natural brace on each stroke I almost never have to brace for balance. I just slowly cruise forward at my 4 knots. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; - >1. Interesting to have an arbitrary 210 cm dividing point when it is >generally quite difficult to find any manufactured sea kayak or touring >paddle below 220 cm. I am not arguing with the 210 cm divide. Just >that it doesn't seem to conform with the real choices a paddler has when >he or she wanders into a shop. It's like sitting in Brooklyn and >deciding to categorize people as either Finnish speaking and English >speaking. There aren't that many Finns around. I have no problem with any other cut-off point that anyone wants to suggest even if it's use remians confined to this mailing list. The terms "long" and "short" have so little meaning and some kind of agreed upon cut-off would do wonders for making discussion more clear. > >2. I doubt that there are universal biomechanics at work since human >builds vary so greatly as does strength, stamina, motivation, etc. >Perhaps kayak shops should have some measuring devices as do shoe stores >to at least narrow needs in paddle length and blade shape. Methods exist to size all kinds of things from clothing to tennis grips I would be surprised to find out that kayaking could not be handled similarly. Of course, people are different but one has to wonder if nothing would provide a better fit than something. Imagine buying a pair of shoes if there were no standard sizing. I know I really need a size 12.36 but 12.5 isn't all thta bad. :-) > >3. Certainly a longer paddle begets flatter paddling and flatter >paddling beckons for longer paddles. Same with shorter paddles, i.e. >calling for closer more vertical strokes, etc. I think what happens in >these arguments is that we stack up all those points that confirm our >own style and paddle choice is "best." I think those who do ergonomic studies might wonder at whether "best" is what you like or whether what one likes devolves from familiarity rather than the mechanical realities. All of us have seen that the "best" of many things has changed and evolved. I suspect that change results from someone asking "How can this be done better?" rather than "What is best?" What is best is what we think is best based upon experience but how can we know that something isn't better when we cut off inquiry by assuming the absolute? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald wrote; ->Here is why I like long paddles: I was using a 218 cm conventional paddle >when I inherited a 246 cm narrow blade. I tried it over my regular 8 NM >bi-weekly distance and found myself much less fatigued. My speed was the >same (4 knots measured). Intrigued, I did numerous repeated time trials in >different boats with both paddles. Same results, I consistently was less >tired at the end of the 2 hours with the long narrow blade. The question that arises in my mind is, were the two paddles equivalent in area and drag coefficient? Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:32:51 PDT