This list is too silent; let us reopen one of the classical subjects. How many backups do you have for self rescue? Ideally, a good paddler would know how to roll on both sides. As a first backup, he/she would grab a spare paddle, or half paddle, from the deck and roll up with it. As a second backup, he/she could roll up with an inflated or solid paddlefloat after retrieving it from the deck. A third back up would be having a solid hands roll. A fourth back up, would be to carry a 1.5 feet PVC pipe to use as a snorkel while awaiting for assistance. For those without a roll I can only think of having competent partners in every paddle. As a second backup, a good very buoyant paddlefloat, but avoid rough seas. As a third backup an inflatable raft. I have already evaluated the sea seat with a D grade (see last Sea Kayaker magazine), but considering the absence of alternative, it is better than nothing. A fourth backup is the photograph of a beloved one. Let me emphasize that we are talking about backups here. The first line of defense of every paddler is to assess the conditions properly to stay out of trouble. Such an assessment needs to be done with care of not falling into the risk homeostasis cycle. Please refer to John Winters page to learn about that. - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio MacWilliams wrote: > > This list is too silent; let us reopen one of the classical subjects. > > How many backups do you have for self rescue? Slight problem for me as canoes are very hard to roll & very hard to reenter without help, especially the skinny light weight ones. So I rely on staying right side up, especially when alone. Should that fail, I'll have to swim to shore towing the boat or use my backpack as a sponson (oops, shouldn't say that word). -- Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I am having fun trying to learn some of Julio's backups. Last night I worked on swimming with a kayak and once again had a very hard time doing it. At least I got one breath in before bailing out of the boat so I am making some progress. I haven't tried rolling up on half a paddle pulled off the back deck. I'm going to try that one next time I'm in a pool. As for my backups, I have what I consider to be enough. I have a solid roll (combat tested) on both sides. It is very rare that my roll fails me. Should it fail, I have an inflatable paddle-float and I do a paddle-float rentry roll. This technique works fabulously even in the roughest conditions. I can do a re-entry roll without the paddle-float, but I like using the paddlefloat since it gives me a solid outrigger to stabilize the boat while I pump it out. Oh yeah, I also have a pump that is teathered to my boat, a knife to deal with any teathers (should I get tangled in them), a spare paddle, lots of float bags tied in place (even with my bulk head boats), and a full assortment of signalling gear (radio, smoke flares, aeral flares). Also, unless I'm in a river and not expecting to flip, I dress for a brief emersion in the water (usually just a light wet suit -- not counting white water or surfing, of course, where I dress for extended emersion). I feel pretty safe in rough, open ocean conditions - even when I'm paddling alone (though I usually prefer to be in a group of at least three paddlers). --Tim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Good topic idea, Julio! Last weekend, I had an interesting experience regarding backups. I decided on a lark to go paddling in a little storm that we had last saturday in Seattle. Winds were blowing 20 knots, with gusts to 25. I paddled from Golden Gardens to the lighthouse on West Point (about 1 nmi), where there is a meteorological station with hourly web updates, so I knew for sure that the winds were 20 knots. :) Wind waves were about 2 feet. On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Julio MacWilliams wrote: > This list is too silent; let us reopen one of the classical subjects. > > How many backups do you have for self rescue? I had rushed to get my boat (a current designs gulfstream which I am reviewing for sea kayaker magazine), and then get on the water before the wind died down. It was only after I had unloaded the boat and put on my drysuit that I realized that I had forgotten my pump and paddlefloat! Since I was alone, my only option for self-rescue was my eskimo roll. I had also forgotten my flares, signal mirror, and a VHF. (Julio, lets add those to the rescue option list below). I decided that if I went for a swim, I would have no way to get back into the kayak, or even summon help. There was a sailboat race about 1 mile downwind of West Point, and also there is quite a good bit of boat traffic in this area. So what would you do in this situation, go home, or go for a paddle? I decided to go for a paddle, even though I knew I would be Sea Kayaker Magazine Safety Report fodder if something went wrong. Obviously, most people would consider this a very unsafe thing to do. Here are the questions that I asked myself before going out. 1. What do you think about the conditions? my answer to myself: These conditions look fun. I am excited to get out on the water and do some wind-wave surfing. Too bad the waves are only 2 feet. 2. Will you have any trouble handling these conditions? Answer: I doubt it. It would be kind of fun if I did have some trouble. I could always duck in behind west Point if I encounter anything close to my limits. 3. If you flip, what are the chances that you might miss your roll? Answer: Que? no comprende "miss your roll"... 4. What happens in the event of the worst case scenario? Answer: If I get separated from my boat, I will float in my bright yellow drysuit until rescued by a boat. There is heavy boat traffic in this area, and I should be able to last quite a while in my drysuit. So as you can see, I had a lot of confidence in my ability to handle the conditions. I have an excellent roll on both sides, which I practice regularly in the ocean and on the river. I rarely miss my first attempt at a roll, but I have the motivation to keep trying my roll if I miss the first two or three atttempts. So what happened on my paddle? First, I paddled at an estimated 2.5 knots directly into a 20 knot headwind. Yes, it was hard work, but it was kind of fun. Then I got to West Point for the 1 mile downwind run with the waves. Surfing was quite good, and I enjoyed testing my boat to its limits. I found that it caught waves well enough, but that it broached quite easily with the skeg retracted. I liked the performance best with the skeg fully extended. Then, it had the least tendency to broach, but I was still able to actively position myself where I wanted on the wave face. I was pleasantly surprised by the boats ability to surf, although I would still consider it a dog... The most exciting part of the trip came when I tried too hard to fight a broach with a stern rudder. Suddenly I found myself doing a desperation high brace to prevent a capsize. The brace didn't work, and I was going under. momentary panic ensued, "I am all alone, don't miss my roll! Of course I'm not going to miss my roll... Set-up, sweep, hipsnap. Hey, what do you know... it worked the first time!" In river paddling, we sometimes say that if you run the river too many times without needing to roll, then you are wimping out and not pushing your skill limits enough. It felt good to exercise my roll at sea, which is something that I have not had to do in a very long while. The rest of the paddle was even more fun, given the good feeling of making a successful roll when it really mattered. I surfed down to the sailboat races, which I watched for a little at the upwind mark. It was neat to watch the boats tacking upwind and vying for position around the mark. It was also neat to watch the boats unfurl their spinnakers with big snap. However sailboat racing in general seemed like a very uptight sport, and I saw very few smiles on the faces of sailors during the race. Perhaps they wait until the pub after the race to let loose. :) I think I prefer the individual freedom of a solo kayak. Well, I think that about wraps up my story. I should close with the comment that a solid roll is the absolute best self-rescue device there is, and I would encourage all kayakers to practice their roll if at all possible. Finally, whitewater rivers and the ocean surf are the best proving grounds for developing your bombproof roll. Happy paddling, Kevin > > Ideally, a good paddler would know how to roll on both sides. > As a first backup, he/she would grab a spare paddle, or half paddle, > from the deck and roll up with it. > As a second backup, he/she could roll up with an inflated or solid > paddlefloat after retrieving it from the deck. > A third back up would be having a solid hands roll. > A fourth back up, would be to carry a 1.5 feet PVC pipe to use as > a snorkel while awaiting for assistance. > > For those without a roll I can only think of having competent partners > in every paddle. > As a second backup, a good very buoyant paddlefloat, but avoid rough seas. > As a third backup an inflatable raft. I have already evaluated the > sea seat with a D grade (see last Sea Kayaker magazine), but considering > the absence of alternative, it is better than nothing. > A fourth backup is the photograph of a beloved one. > > Let me emphasize that we are talking about backups here. The first line > of defense of every paddler is to assess the conditions properly > to stay out of trouble. Such an assessment needs to be done with care > of not falling into the risk homeostasis cycle. Please refer to > John Winters page to learn about that. > > - Julio > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>This list is too silent; let us reopen one of the classical subjects. What??? It takes as much as an hour most days to wade through all the messages here, even with dumping all the useless ones like "Canadian Ballast Rocks." You must not be getting all your mail! Ira Adams illud Latine dici non potest. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Aim getting about 20 Paddlewise e-mails a day and can not keep up:( *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio wrote >This list is too silent; let us reopen one of the classical subjects. > >How many backups do you have for self rescue? > >Ideally, a good paddler would know how to roll on both sides. >As a first backup, he/she would grab a spare paddle, or half paddle, >from the deck and roll up with it. >As a second backup, he/she could roll up with an inflated or solid >paddlefloat after retrieving it from the deck. >[snip] Don't forget that you are wearing a float that you can roll up with. Most people find rolling with a float in their hands easier than rolling with a paddle. Bruce Bruce Winterbon bwinterb_at_intranet.ca http://intranet.ca:80/~bwinterb A non-indexed pension is a fraud. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>It was only after I had unloaded the boat and put on my >drysuit that I realized that I had forgotten my pump and paddlefloat! > >Since I was alone, my only option for self-rescue was my eskimo roll. I wonder how many folks use a reenter without paddle float? These techniques are on my list of "I should practice this". I have only done it in a WW kayak and never on the river (only in the pool and calm lake). One of my fellow kayak club members practices it regularly. There are several variations that I've seen. The one I use is a cowboy entry over the rear of the kayak, turning and entering the cockpit feet first. Another cowboy entry goes into a sitting position on the rear deck (real tippy!) and drops in butt first. Another uses a paddle for minimal support. The paddle is held with one hand at the back of the cockpit, similar to the British style paddle float reentry (i.e. without wedging the paddle beneath the rear deck bungies. The first two are "relatively" easy in a WW kayak, but may be a challenge in a sea kayak. The latter I've only seen done with a sea kayak and have never tried myself. The reason I ask about this is that the techniques seem that they would have a low probability of success in rough conditions due to the very tippy behavior of the kayaks when you're up on the rear deck without extra "outrigger" bouyancy. Are these useful in real conditions? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> The reason I ask about this is that the techniques seem that they would > have a low probability of success in rough conditions due to the very > tippy behavior of the kayaks when you're up on the rear deck without extra > "outrigger" bouyancy. Are these useful in real conditions? You might consider how to rig a more reliable outrigger system for precisely this purpose. In fact, tomorrow, I intend to spend some time practicing precisely this in relatively open water, though probably rather light winds. Seeing as one of the things I want to do from my kayak is open water diving, I think I need to get some open water practice. I have an outrigger system for my 'yak; but its never been tested. I'll certainly be bringing tools tomorrow!! I *THINK* the cowboy reentry with outrigger should be the easiest, but I'll know by tomorrow evening. This isn't a paddlefloat outrigger, thats for emergencies; but rather a fixed mount with a 4' poll and solid foam float on a single side. The idea being to stay low and lean over to the side with the float... Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I don't understand this talk of rigging an outrigger for solo rentry techniques. If you depend on a particular rigging on a kayak, what happens when you switch to a different boat? In short, if you depend on a boat being setup to support your outrigger, you are screwed when you switch boats. This situation bit me once. I was paddling in a boat that had a rounded deck behind the cockpit. I was practicing solo rentry techniques and couldn't stabilize "the outrigger". As hard as I tried, I couldn't get into my boat. Finally, I had to resort to an assisted rentry. The solution? A paddlefloat re-entry roll. This works even if you can't roll. The key is to practice getting into the boat upside down and then easilly rolling back up. The technique is much easier then the "traditional" paddlefloat re-entry techniques. It has the further advantage of working in realy rough water --- something I question for the traditional, outrigger technique. In fact, The re-entry roll is so much more dependable than the traditional "outrigger technique" that I think it is irresponsible to teach the outrigger technique. I can think of no situation -- even with complete beginners -- where the outrigger paddlefloat re-entry is preferable to the re-entry roll. So my advice is skip all this worry about how to rig a kayak to support the outrigger. The re-entry roll feels weird at first, but once you practice entering the boat upside down a couple times, the re-entry roll will work every time. --Tim -----Original Message----- From: R. Walker To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Sent: 10/23/98 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How many backups? > The reason I ask about this is that the techniques seem that they would > have a low probability of success in rough conditions due to the very > tippy behavior of the kayaks when you're up on the rear deck without extra > "outrigger" bouyancy. Are these useful in real conditions? You might consider how to rig a more reliable outrigger system for precisely this purpose. In fact, tomorrow, I intend to spend some time practicing precisely this in relatively open water, though probably rather light winds. Seeing as one of the things I want to do from my kayak is open water diving, I think I need to get some open water practice. I have an outrigger system for my 'yak; but its never been tested. I'll certainly be bringing tools tomorrow!! I *THINK* the cowboy reentry with outrigger should be the easiest, but I'll know by tomorrow evening. This isn't a paddlefloat outrigger, thats for emergencies; but rather a fixed mount with a 4' poll and solid foam float on a single side. The idea being to stay low and lean over to the side with the float... Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html ************************************************************************ *** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ************************************************************************ *** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> I don't understand this talk of rigging an outrigger for solo rentry > techniques. If you depend on a particular rigging on a kayak, what > happens when you switch to a different boat? In short, if you depend on a > boat being setup to support your outrigger, you are screwed when you > switch boats. Why would I switch boats??? But lets leave that aside for the moment.... > The solution? A paddlefloat re-entry roll. This works even if you can't > roll. The key is to practice getting into the boat upside down and then You are assuming that I can't do a paddle float reentry... > easilly rolling back up. The technique is much easier then the > "traditional" paddlefloat re-entry techniques. It has the further > advantage of working in realy rough water --- something I question for the > traditional, outrigger technique. I have not given much thought to using the paddlefloat+paddle and roll. I will compare it tomorrow; but you have to realize, I'm using this not as a rescue technique, but as a way to get in and out of the boat, maybe as many as a dozen times while on a particular spot. My main concern is how much energy I burn doing each of the techniques. The point of getting back in the boat is to be able to rest between a series of dives... If I end up exhausted from performing an athletic excercise of tipping over the boat, slipping in, rolling back up, and pumping out water; I didn't exactly accomplish anything positive. The outrigged boat should stay, more or less, unswamped... > So my advice is skip all this worry about how to rig a kayak to support > the outrigger. The re-entry roll feels weird at first, but once you > practice entering the boat upside down a couple times, the re-entry roll > will work every time. One problem I have is staying in the boat upside down. The cockpit on mine is very quite large, compared to sexier, performance boats. The outrigger system allows me to avoid dealing with this particular problem. I have honestly thought about using a fairly dangerous idea of having a fastex waist belt hold me in the seat so that I can roll; though I have not, as of yet, given up on learning to roll without such a support. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
It appeared that one of the respondents you attached to your message was talking about an "outrigger" set up for diving. I am not sure what type of kayak he was talking about, but I know that many of the ones divers use are set up more like canoes (fairly wide and no interior - i.e. sit on top) so they don't tend to roll well due to their width. The main use of the outrigger is to ease re-entry, and yes they are very dependent on the equipment - i.e. often the outrigger actually attaches with hardware (pins, hinges etc.) but it is a suitable type of re-entry for that type of boat. With the weird weight distribution (and poor range of motion once in the cockpit)one has with scuba tanks on their back, rolling may be "challenging" at best, and a lot of people like to wait until they're "on board" before they remove them. I have seen them use the outriggers in a manner similar to a swim step on a motor boat. This, of course, doesn't even begin to address the issue of "solo" diving. While we all tend to get pretty psyched up on rolling being the "right" self rescue tool, I think we tend to forget that it is really dependent on boat design and stability (I have yet to see a good roll (paddlefloat or otherwise) used for righting a Zodiac or a sailboat). Some of the boats that are called kayaks have a lot more in common with other boats than we with the boats that we tend to think of when we hear the word kayak. -Saul At 11:34 AM 10/23/98 -0700, Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > >I don't understand this talk of rigging an outrigger for solo rentry >techniques. If you depend on a particular rigging on a kayak, what happens >when you switch to a different boat? In short, if you depend on a boat >being setup to support your outrigger, you are screwed when you switch >boats. > >This situation bit me once. I was paddling in a boat that had a rounded >deck behind the cockpit. I was practicing solo rentry techniques and >couldn't stabilize "the outrigger". As hard as I tried, I couldn't get into >my boat. Finally, I had to resort to an assisted rentry. > >The solution? A paddlefloat re-entry roll. This works even if you can't >roll. The key is to practice getting into the boat upside down and then >easilly rolling back up. The technique is much easier then the >"traditional" paddlefloat re-entry techniques. It has the further advantage >of working in realy rough water --- something I question for the >traditional, outrigger technique. > >In fact, The re-entry roll is so much more dependable than the traditional >"outrigger technique" that I think it is irresponsible to teach the >outrigger technique. I can think of no situation -- even with complete >beginners -- where the outrigger paddlefloat re-entry is preferable to the >re-entry roll. > >So my advice is skip all this worry about how to rig a kayak to support the >outrigger. The re-entry roll feels weird at first, but once you practice >entering the boat upside down a couple times, the re-entry roll will work >every time. > >--Tim > >-----Original Message----- >From: R. Walker >To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Sent: 10/23/98 10:13 AM >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How many backups? > >> The reason I ask about this is that the techniques seem that they >would >> have a low probability of success in rough conditions due to the very >> tippy behavior of the kayaks when you're up on the rear deck without >extra >> "outrigger" bouyancy. Are these useful in real conditions? > >You might consider how to rig a more reliable outrigger system for >precisely this purpose. In fact, tomorrow, I intend to spend some >time practicing precisely this in relatively open water, though >probably rather light winds. Seeing as one of the things I want to >do from my kayak is open water diving, I think I need to get some >open water practice. I have an outrigger system for my 'yak; but >its never been tested. I'll certainly be bringing tools tomorrow!! > >I *THINK* the cowboy reentry with outrigger should be the easiest, >but I'll know by tomorrow evening. This isn't a paddlefloat outrigger, >thats for emergencies; but rather a fixed mount with a 4' poll and >solid foam float on a single side. The idea being to stay low and >lean over to the side with the float... > > > >Richard Walker >Houston, TX >http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html >************************************************************************ >*** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >************************************************************************ >*** >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
There is only one problem with the paddlefloat re-entry and roll, which is that while rolling up you scoop the maximum capacity of water inside the kayak. If one has a foot pump, or electric pump, then the paddlefloat re-entry and roll is virtualy bomb proof. Otherwise, in calm waters, doing the paddlefloat outrigger re-entry saves many minutes of pumping. Still nothing beats staying inside the kayak with the spray skirt on. - Julio > > In fact, The re-entry roll is so much more dependable than the traditional > "outrigger technique" that I think it is irresponsible to teach the > outrigger technique. I can think of no situation -- even with complete > beginners -- where the outrigger paddlefloat re-entry is preferable to the > re-entry roll. > > --Tim > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/23/98 2:04:02 PM EST, timothy.g.mattson_at_intel.com writes: << In short, if you depend on a boat being setup to support your outrigger, you are screwed when you switch boats. >> Switch Boats? Why would you want to switch to a boat without the proper rigging? For me a remote possibility. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/23/98 5:08:15 PM EST, juliom_at_cisco.com writes: << If one has a foot pump, or electric pump, then the paddlefloat re-entry and roll is virtualy bomb proof. Otherwise, in calm waters, doing the paddlefloat outrigger re-entry saves many minutes of pumping. >> Put your spray shirt on first, at lest the front part. It works in the pool:) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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