Hi, I just joined PaddleWise & would like to introduce myself. I have paddled for about 30 years, starting in home-made kayaks. The first ones were skin & frame (scrap wood & 6 mil plastic), then an 18 foot strp tandem & a 16 foot plywood, all designed by myself & all having some rather interesting handling characteristics. Eight years ago I bought a tandem tripping canoe & later a solo flatwater cruiser. This winter I plan to build a stitch&glue solo canoe that John Winters designed for me. I like week long flatwater trips in Algonquin with friends or my teenage kids. Please take a look at my homepage. -- Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Please take a look at my homepage. >-- >Lloyd Bowles >The Mad Canoeist >"Keep the open side up!" >http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html >*************************************************************************** hi Lloyd, Cool photos. sleeping on snow by the streams look like real fun...and the sky up there is so blue. do you use a normal camera or a special one that's conditioned for water? have you worked with video? how mad are you? bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Larry Bliven wrote: > > hi Lloyd, > > Cool photos. sleeping on snow by the streams look like real fun...and the > sky up there is so blue. > It is real fun. Want to join me for a week of it this winter? :-) > do you use a normal camera or a special one that's conditioned for water? I have a Samsung pocket 35 with 35-70mm zoom, autofocus & autoexposure. It isn't waterproof or even water resistant. > have you worked with video? No, that takes talent. I just rely on taking lots of photos & keeping a few. Once I scan them in, cropping can help turn an ordinary photo into something I'm proud of. > how mad are you? How mad do you want me to be? -- Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:24 AM 10/5/98 -0400, Lloyd Bowles wrote: > This winter I plan to build a stitch&glue solo canoe >that John Winters designed for me. > >I like week long flatwater trips in Algonquin with friends or my teenage >kids. > Hi Lloyd, Welcome! Since you've indicated that you've built and are building kayaks, you might also be interested in the following list: baidarka_at_lists.intelenet.net You join it the same way as paddlewise. The list covers mainly skin on frame kayak construction but, like any list, wanders from time to time. Your experience could add to that list. Again, welcome, Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have been on the list for almost 3/4 a year now, finally paddled a boat a month ago (how is that for research). I had no idea what many of the posts were about, but now understand the passions for kayaking exhibited here (starting to understand many of the posts as well). I have been out 5 times, once for a 6 hour trip which reinforced the need to have one of these contraptions. Also had a capsize so I experienced an assisted rescue. Now the question is what boat to buy- can't afford the rental rates. Everybody has told me to try them out, but being new, I am not sensitive to the nuances you more experienced paddlers can percieve in a boat. The parameters I am dealing with: Somewhat inexpensive, this is rather subjective I know. Something to develop good technique- am interested in learning to roll after developing my basic strokes. I would like to do it fairly often, lots of small rivers and creeks here as well as a short drive to a bay and the Delaware river. Also a couple of fine lakes. (central NJ) Durability is a major factor in these rivers and creeks, also must be able to lift the thing over fallen logs. Something that I may want to keep after upgrading, either to loan friends or to do bang around stuff. After trying some 8-10 different boats, some within my parameters, some far too expensive, I thought my entry level boat should be the Breeze by Current Design. Small enough to navigate the waters around here, stable in the 30 mph winds I was in last Thurs night. My kayak store just threw a wrench in the works by getting a stack of demo boats at a very good price from Dagger, the Edisto seems to spec out very similar to the Breeze. I hope to demo this boat with the Breeze on Thursday, what excactly should I be looking for (as a begginer). Tracking seems obvious, this is what attracted me to the Breeze. Anything else? By the way, if it helps any, the store's webpage is http://members.aol.com/Froggie405 where there are links to the manufacturer's sites if specs help, I am a bit clueless except for length and hull shape. Like I said, I am a bit of a nut about research and value the knowledge of the experienced... -- gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I would recommend the longest, narrowest boat you feel you will be able to manage after a few tippy weeks of learning. The Storm and the Dagger (with the integral rudder) look like good choices. I suspect you will quickly outgrow a boat like the edisto. cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> I would recommend the longest, narrowest boat you feel you will be able to > manage after a few tippy weeks of learning. The Storm and the Dagger (with > the integral rudder) look like good choices. > > I suspect you will quickly outgrow a boat like the edisto. Long and narrows are often much more expensive than the Edisto. Besides what does "outgrow" mean? Not trying to be overly sensitive here, given that I paddle an Edisto.... Could I comfortably paddle an 18', 22" beam boat. Sure. Would it be faster than my Edisto? Sure. Is that difference worth the extra $500 - $800 in hull cost? Not for me. Could I pile a couple dozen duck decoys on the back deck of such a narrow boat? Not reasonably. Could I bang into an oyster reef in such a narrow, deeper draft boat without crying? Nope. Is there anywhere I could go in the narrow boat that I couldn't go in the Edisto? I can't think of any. And given the price difference, there are things I'm *willing* to do with the Edisto that I wouldn't be willing to do with the sexy boat. I can afford to replace the Edisto hull every 2-3 years. I'd have to make the sexy hull last 5 to get similar value. I got gadgets mounted all over the thing, I've got a million gashes in the bottom, it rides on my car 200+ days a year, and I'll drag it up and down river banks anywhere, anytime. And in 3 years, I might just run the Texas Water Safari in it; if it gets eaten by the San Marcos in a bad mood, then thats ok. A $2000 long, narrow, glass boat would have to be treated much differently, and one person trying to get an 18' boat down the San Marcos might be quite an interesting thing to watch. My father owns a high speed bass boat, and a big pontoon boat. He fishes just about every day, guides occassionally, competes in tournaments, etc. Guess what boat he uses all the time. Yep, the pontoon boat. You wanna catch fish, or do you wanna look cool? In the end, in order to avoid the boat owners maximum of being "happy only on the day you buy it, and the day you sell it." you have to ask what is the PURPOSE of the boat, and how much per year do you want to spend on a hull to meet that purpose. Then go out and find a boat that fits. The guy that wants to do weeklong trips in SE Alaska and will spend $500 a year on a hull is going to choose a completely different boat than the guy that wants to dive off of the beaches of Florida and has $250 a year to spend. Richard Walker Houston, TX *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
R. Walker wrote: > > > I would recommend the longest, narrowest boat you feel you will be able to > > manage after a few tippy weeks of learning. > > > > I suspect you will quickly outgrow a boat like the Edisto. > > Long and narrows are often much more expensive than the Edisto. > Besides what does "outgrow" mean? Not trying to be overly > sensitive here, given that I paddle an Edisto.... Could I comfortably > paddle an 18', 22" beam boat. Sure. Would it be faster than my > Edisto? Sure. Is that difference worth the extra $500 - $800 in > hull cost? Not for me. [snip] > In the end, in order to avoid the boat owners maximum of being > "happy only on the day you buy it, and the day you sell it." you > have to ask what is the PURPOSE of the boat, and how much per > year do you want to spend on a hull to meet that purpose. Then go > out and find a boat that fits. The guy that wants to do weeklong > trips in SE Alaska and will spend $500 a year on a hull is going to > choose a completely different boat than the guy that wants to dive > off of the beaches of Florida and has $250 a year to spend. I'll add my data point to Richard's: Five years ago I bought a barely used Aquaterra Spectrum, with rudder, to use as a loaner for friends who paddled with me, for $800. By almost anybody's analysis, the Spectrum is just about the least able "sea kayak" around. Turned out my SO was the paddler who used it the most. We went all over with that thing, including some waters remote and wild. We had a lot of fun, and she did not know what a "quality" boat was like to paddle. I sold it this spring, for $600, to a lady across the river, who intends to use it for the same purpose: a loaner for her kids/grandkids/etc. The SO now has a "real" sea kayak, and is pleased as punch with her 18-foot, sleek, glass wonder. Sigh ... now she's faster than I am! What did this five-year relationship with the lowly Spectrum cost me? Do the math. Best value I ever will get out of a boat, I think. Oh, yes, people in wild and remote places snickered at it and made jokes about it behind their hands as we paddled up to them. Oh, bother, as Pooh would say! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave: Suppose you had purchased the 18 foot sleek glass wonder five years ago, your SO would have had even more fun paddling? cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote: > > Dave: Suppose you had purchased the 18 foot sleek glass wonder five years > ago, your SO would have had even more fun paddling? Suppose I had had the $2000 bucks to do that 5 years ago. It is a moot question. I did not have the bucks. If someone else had laid a sleek 18-footer on her/us, I 'spect she would have enjoyed immensely whupping me to the line. My ego would be so damaged, though, I might have been forced into an innapropriate relationship with an even better yak! <G> BTW, I'll take a sleek 18-footer off the hands of anybody who wants to let me do the converse experiment, starting today! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> In Gabrials case, there was no mention of duck decoys or other uses other > then the pure enjoyment of paddling. This, added to the local dealer's > recent statement that he was unable to "give an Edisto away" prompted me to > suggest a higher performance boat. I didn't pick up on what his purpose was for a kayak. I pointed him at the log file I keep for each trip out, and he enjoyed the read. I missed the giving an Edisto away comment. If someone wants to give one away, call me! <grin>. Only the Chinook really tempts me in a different sort of way; though the Chinook is to big for some of the spots I put the Edisto in. Sometimes the Edisto is a little on the big side; but usually manageable. [narrow bayous at high current] > Out-grow means that a sleek kayak which seems to offer everything a novice > may ever desire may soon become a plastic bathtub with a rudder. It's > imperative that any new Kayaker paddle as many boats as possible for as long > as possible before buying a boat. Heres a thought for you though. The Edisto (and similar style boats) runs about $900 - $1100. Used/undamaged, you shouldn't have to much difficulty unloading it for $500. Thats a loss of $400 to $600; maybe even getting a year of beginner use out of it in the process. Most if not all your gear is transferable between the Edisto and the Nordkapp [cept the skirt probably]. If you start with a less expensive boat, a necessary upgrade is less costly, than if you buy the $2000 boat to start with, and determine that you are going to smash it into oyster reefs a dozen times a year. Another thing I've observed, but not talked alot about, is people having these sexy boats, and then putt-putting along the shoreline at 2kts most of the time. Like buying the ferrari to drive at 20mph back and forth to the grocery store. If I get a ferrari, I'm paying for track time, and I'm gonna find out how many tires I can burn in a day. Maybe if these folks had spent the difference on VHF, GPS, charts, and epirb they'd actually get out more in the less expensive boat. Not sure about that of course, and you certainly can't actually stop and ask folks a question like that without getting a defensive answer.... The other thing that bothers my thinking is that while these folks get a sleek fast boat, it seems most trip planners find a 20 mile day a bit over the top. Yet I've been perfectly happy with the lumpier Edisto on the two long solos I've done over the last year. Routinely, someone will announce a trip, and the start location sounds fun, then I find out the grand total mileage is all of 6 miles or 8 miles. Exactly what kind of trip is that? Don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to suggest folks shouldn't get the sleek boats, but rather, that maybe they should think about what they are going to do with/to it; before selecting the boat that simply feels the best. The ferrari [I happen to actually prefer celicas] feels best to just about everyone; but few actually want to own one. Richard Walker Houston, TX *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I wasn't going to weigh in, but I think I need to put a good word in for plastic, high tonnage sea kayaks as great starter boats. I bought a plastic Aquaterra Sea Lion as my first Kayak. I fanatically took to the sport and within a couple years purchased a Dancer XT white water boat, a Seda Glider (kevlar and REAL fast), and a frisky Feathercraft Khatsalano. I have kept my Sea Lion, though, and have no intention of ever selling it. There are times I paddle in places where I intend to abuse my boat. I travel on shallow rivers where hitting rocks is routine. I paddle in the surf where I know the boat will get seriously munched. Its wonderful to have a boat that I can freely abuse! The Sea Lion - partially due to its weight, mostly due to its design - is also a very stable boat. If I know I'm going to paddle a huge distance and want to stay upright even when I'm getting a bit sloppy (like on my recent Eugene to Salem paddle), its great to have a forgiving boat. So I recommend that people new to this sport seriously consider starting out with an inexpensive, forgiving plastic boat. You can always sell it when your skills pass up what the boat can deliver, but you might find, as I did, that it fills an important niche in your fleet. --Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: R. Walker [SMTP:rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 9:48 AM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] a pretty basic question > > > In Gabrials case, there was no mention of duck decoys or other uses > other > > then the pure enjoyment of paddling. This, added to the local dealer's > > recent statement that he was unable to "give an Edisto away" prompted me > to > > suggest a higher performance boat. > > I didn't pick up on what his purpose was for a kayak. I pointed him > at the log file I keep for each trip out, and he enjoyed the read. I > missed the giving an Edisto away comment. If someone wants to > give one away, call me! <grin>. Only the Chinook really tempts > me in a different sort of way; though the Chinook is to big for some > of the spots I put the Edisto in. Sometimes the Edisto is a little on > the big side; but usually manageable. [narrow bayous at high > current] > > > Out-grow means that a sleek kayak which seems to offer everything a > novice > > may ever desire may soon become a plastic bathtub with a rudder. It's > > imperative that any new Kayaker paddle as many boats as possible for as > long > > as possible before buying a boat. > > Heres a thought for you though. The Edisto (and similar style > boats) runs about $900 - $1100. Used/undamaged, you shouldn't > have to much difficulty unloading it for $500. Thats a loss of $400 > to $600; maybe even getting a year of beginner use out of it in the > process. Most if not all your gear is transferable between the > Edisto and the Nordkapp [cept the skirt probably]. If you start > with a less expensive boat, a necessary upgrade is less costly, > than if you buy the $2000 boat to start with, and determine that you > are going to smash it into oyster reefs a dozen times a year. > > Another thing I've observed, but not talked alot about, is people > having these sexy boats, and then putt-putting along the shoreline > at 2kts most of the time. Like buying the ferrari to drive at 20mph > back and forth to the grocery store. If I get a ferrari, I'm paying for > track time, and I'm gonna find out how many tires I can burn in a > day. Maybe if these folks had spent the difference on VHF, GPS, > charts, and epirb they'd actually get out more in the less expensive > boat. Not sure about that of course, and you certainly can't > actually stop and ask folks a question like that without getting a > defensive answer.... > > The other thing that bothers my thinking is that while these folks > get a sleek fast boat, it seems most trip planners find a 20 mile > day a bit over the top. Yet I've been perfectly happy with the > lumpier Edisto on the two long solos I've done over the last year. > Routinely, someone will announce a trip, and the start location > sounds fun, then I find out the grand total mileage is all of 6 miles > or 8 miles. Exactly what kind of trip is that? Don't > misunderstand, I'm not trying to suggest folks shouldn't get the > sleek boats, but rather, that maybe they should think about what > they are going to do with/to it; before selecting the boat that simply > feels the best. The ferrari [I happen to actually prefer celicas] feels > best to just about everyone; but few actually want to own one. > > > Richard Walker > Houston, TX > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:17:25 Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > >I wasn't going to weigh in, but I think I need to put a good word in for >plastic, high tonnage sea kayaks as great starter boats. > >So I recommend that people new to this sport seriously consider starting out >with an inexpensive, forgiving plastic boat. You can always sell it when >your skills pass up what the boat can deliver, but you might find, as I did, >that it fills an important niche in your fleet. > I second that heartily. Since I started this sport this summer I bought a couple of plastic boats, a Looksha IV for me and a Perception Shadow for my wife. It has been a learning experience I'm glad we're doing in boats that can take some abuse. The action that causes the most abuse is launching and landing (getting in and getting out). There have been some "events" that have happened that will (hopefully) never happen again. The abuse the boats took during those events was a lot more than I would want to do to a fiberglass or wooden S&G boat. Probably in a year or so we will upgrade to either fiberglass or build a couple of Coho's. By then, hopefully, we will be better able to control (not that we're bad now) our boats and will have learned enough to avoid all of the bone-headed stuff we've done to the plastic boats. And I will probably keep the plastic boats for playing/loaning. In the mean time we are having a blast in the plastic boats. Joined a float trip down the Kansas river two weeks ago and will probably join another one this weekend. It was mostly canoes so we got a lot of questions from the rest of the people. Mel --- There are three types of people, those who can count and those who can't. PS: Thanks for all of the advice I have received about training schools. Time to get some brochures, do some research, and make a decision in the next few months. -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Well, I don't know quite how to thank you all on the list who has graciously taken off your time to respond to my question, though I must add that I am even a bit less sure of what I thought was a perfectly logical rationale between my initial choices(the Edisto or Breeze). I conclude, but not necesarily commit to: 1.a poly boat for the durability of both the local conditions, initial abuse from my novice inadequacys, and that general peace of mind that I can put it into water almost anywhere. 2.a boat that will respond similar to a high quality boat, sacrificing speed perhaps. This I am not sure if I can perceive with a lack of experience. Can't afford renting a lot of them, so can't get the experience. Somewhat of a catch 22 or rely on 'expert opinion'. 3. a good fit. So far, except for the Squall by current design which I couldn't fit, I have been comfortable in all the kayaks I have been, probably the Breeze the most. I am 6', 170lbs. with rather excessive legs 35"inseam but have been able to adjust the footpegs for comfortable (though uncoordinated) bracing. I would assume that experience will also dictate new parameters for comfort, but I have been known to be quite cavaleir in shoe sizing to get a bargain without too much discomfort;-) 4. the knowledge that I will want to upgrade very soon and I shouldn't feel too guilty for it, others have done it. 5. Its a legitimate thing to be thoughtful of friends and it is nice to have a boat at their disposal when they visit. 6. my dream of eventually building a boat is within reason and is encouraged. Immediate gratification, shorter days, moving a studio means a postponment. 7. people on this list are pretty amazing and helpful. (by the way, I read R Diaz's book on kayaking on the reccomendation of a friend as an introduction to this sport back in February, I understood far more of it after my first strokes of a paddle a month and a half ago) A couple of the boats are no longer available to try, but the owner of the shop kindly offered to take me out and try out the larger Daggers that I havn't tried yet as well as the Current Design Storm. He is quite knowledgeable and helpful so maybe I will have a decision next week. thank you everyone, and all advice is still welcome and influencial. The only personnal commitmant I have at this point is to buy it from this place, he has had to put up with me even more than you guys have- he deserves the damn sale! if you are at all interested, I will keep you posted of the final decision. thanks -- gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal -- gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/7/98 6:59:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rww_at_mailbox.neosoft.com writes: << Is there anywhere I could go in the narrow boat that I couldn't go in the Edisto? I can't think of any. >> Perhaps squeeze through a 22" wide slot in the rocks :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
R. Walker wrote: >Hey, you have the boat I've been thinking about as my next kayak. >I haven't demo'ed it yet, but it has a reputation for being fast and >strongly tracking.... > >Have you had it long enough to get a feel for where its strong >cruising speed is? 3.2 to 3.5 is a very comfortable speed in a No wind condition. The last time I went out to the bay, with the wind behind me, I was surfing along, just barely using my paddle to stay on the wave and was cruising up to 4.6 knots (waves 1 ft.) That's KNOTS! ...as reported on my Magellen 3000 GPS. This boat *is* fast and tracts great. The only criticism I have is that the bow does not rise sharply enough to prevent pearling. Maybe this is an advantage going into the waves. It can cut thorugh steep waves... so much so you can get really slapped hard by a steep oncoming wave that just breaking. Even that day, with wave hgts. were about 1 ft., there was pearling. Not that it meant much. I've only pitchpolled once. I believe the waves were 4 to 5 feet that day...wind around 25 or so at Port Aransas. Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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