I have enjoyed reading the posts about roof rack attachment. Some have made some very good points. All persons are interested in doing it right. I am shocked and surprised with the lack of understanding of things mechanical and the trust of things without redundancy by so many. You may have the most expensive roof rack made, you have brand new straps, you may have tied two half hitches at every point, but that is no guarantee that you will reach your objective which is getting to your destination with your load still attached. Even one Kayak is enough investment to justify "going the second mile". Think about how much trade in value a run over kayak has. That is assuming you don't want to continue using the flat-yak. There has only been one post concerning the method of securing the tower to the roof. That is the usual week point of the chain. Most have overlooked this. The usual method is by little bitty fasteners. Expansion nuts, clips, self tapping screws, etc, etc. all designed to "simplify the job and prevent having to access the underside of the roof usually covered by some type of "headliner" that one would rather not remove. In short, they are all shortcuts. A compromise at best. And some of you "trust them"? Several persons have been downright incensed that someone should question their ability to "properly secure" their load without securing ropes fore and aft. This is plain folly. I will agree that these ropes are a nuisance if for no other reason, they interfere with vision. I have noticed that placement of these makes a difference in this respect. You just have to experiment. I once moved one over 4 inches in the rain because it was in the wrong place vision wise, but I did not remove it completely. Others cite their "pre flight" check like they do their aircraft as their assurance that their load is secure. I want to remind you that without exception, every plane that has crashed for many, many years was "preflighted" and every pilot that crashed did not want to, but it still happened. This is a horrible attitude. It shows total disdain for your fellow motorist. The little child strapped into their seat by a thoughtful mother does not deserve to have your kayak decapitate them or tomaim for life. Not at all. This year it will flood deeper than ever remembered somewhere on this earth. A hurricane will destroy homes never before destroyed by all the hurricanes in history. A tornado will destroy lives in communities that have never had one before and somebody will be hurt or killed by a rooftop load that was not secured properly. Don't let that somebody be you because of self imposed vanity. The thoughts you will have to live with the rest of your life are not worth the macho bravado that some possess. If you like to live close to the edge, do it. If you enjoy safe sports, do it. If you only take up new challenges after "proper instruction by a certified instructor" then do it, but don't practice your bravado on the public highway you share with others who don't share your love of kayaks enough to want one through their windshield. My observations of roof loads are that canoe owners secure their load much better than kayak owners. I don't know the reason, but from reading these posts, I get the impression that "coolness" has a lot to do with it. Like "I know how to keep it on with minimum attachments". Folks, this is not good for us as individuals or as a group. Think about this. What if they outlawed carrying boats on roofs? You think it won't happen? Try driving without your seat belt attached. They outlawed that didn't they? Made it pretty expensive too! We as a group have to not only be responsible, but we have to look responsible. The mere fact we even own such a "little boat" suggests mental impairment. Do your share of passing on an image of at least appearing to care enough to other motorist whether you do or not. To those of you who have shared your acts of "going the second mile" in securing your roof loads, thank you for passing that idea along. I am sure others are listening, but I don't think they hear what you are saying. Just keep on saying it. If you like taking risks, then do so where you will be the one to suffer the consequences, not innocent people. I am sure of the need for some reading this to "flame that guy". If so, fire away! You cannot insult me even if you try. And you cannot persuade me to tie on my load with less vigor than I already do. The life of your child or somebody elses is worth the extra effort to me. I worked too hard for the money to buy my boats and I think too much of you to let one fall off and hurt you or somebody else. And also, I know that just because I have never lost a load and I tie them on securely that does not mean it will not happen. It can. Reason enough to go the extra mile. Murphy is still in charge you know. Thank you, John PS Racoons in Florida are not any more clever than racoons elsewhere. Given the combination of a lock, I am confident of any racoon being able to spin the tumbler properly to open the lock and make mischief. It is just what "they do best". *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 27 Nov 1998 Johnlebl_at_aol.com wrote: > There has only been one post concerning the method of securing the tower to > the roof. That is the usual weak point of the chain. Most have overlooked > this. I currently drive a saab and the roof rack attaches to the vehicle by way of brass inserts in the car frame, that are under the door weatherstripping. There are 8 inserts in the roof, 2 settings fore and 2 aft. A pin on the roof rack clamp fits into the insert. This method of attaching feels sturdier than the gutter mounted racks on my previous cars. On a separate note I've lost several roof racks from cars. The most dramatic being a sheet of 1 inch plywood that took the roof racks, complete with wimpy chrome gutter covers off of my girlfriends car. I heard a "foop" sound and looked in the rear view mirror to see the sheet of plywood, with racks attached doing a tailstand in the lane behind me. If you still have a vehicle with gutters make sure the rack is securing to something integral to the vehicle... Before Yakima/Thule appeared Grumman made roof racks. We lost 2 of those racks, the feet were only about 3 inches wide and weren't stable enough. Once we came to an abrupt stop and the front rack tipped over dropping both canoes onto the roof. The other time my father lost a Xmas tree, with racks attached, but I expect that was an oversight attaching the rack. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Please read the above SUBJECT, you could help ME stay safe !!!! And Thanks to Johnlebl_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
All of the following verbiage is undermined by the fact that no one on this list has lost a boat due to unavoidable mechanical failure. Sure it could happen, and probably will, but it doesn't seem to be a significant risk if the equipment is properly installed, in good condition and securely fastened. The responses on this topic are probably representative of the range of personalities out in the "real world"; from the anal retentive to the reckless. I think we include the full spectrum on this list. Just to summarize my position: For short trip (1 hour or so) with my Yakima gutter mounted racks, webbing straps that are in good condition, cinched and tied, I don't need front and rear straps. For longer trips, where the racks and boats are subject to longer periods without inspection, I use em. If I use the factory racks on my next van with Yakima towers, I would definitely use front and rear straps for any 65mph travel. cya -----Original Message----- From: Johnlebl_at_aol.com <Johnlebl_at_aol.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Friday, November 27, 1998 8:34 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] Safety Responsibility and Roof Racks >I have enjoyed reading the posts about roof rack attachment. Some have made >some very good points. All persons are interested in doing it right. > >I am shocked and surprised with the lack of understanding of things mechanical >and the trust of things without redundancy by so many. > >You may have the most expensive roof rack made, you have brand new straps, you >may have tied two half hitches at every point, but that is no guarantee that >you will reach your objective which is getting to your destination with your >load still attached. > >Even one Kayak is enough investment to justify "going the second mile". Think >about how much trade in value a run over kayak has. That is assuming you >don't want to continue using the flat-yak. > >There has only been one post concerning the method of securing the tower to >the roof. That is the usual week point of the chain. Most have overlooked >this. The usual method is by little bitty fasteners. Expansion nuts, clips, >self tapping screws, etc, etc. all designed to "simplify the job and prevent >having to access the underside of the roof usually covered by some type of >"headliner" that one would rather not remove. In short, they are all >shortcuts. A compromise at best. And some of you "trust them"? > >Several persons have been downright incensed that someone should question >their ability to "properly secure" their load without securing ropes fore and >aft. This is plain folly. I will agree that these ropes are a nuisance if >for no other reason, they interfere with vision. I have noticed that >placement of these makes a difference in this respect. You just have to >experiment. I once moved one over 4 inches in the rain because it was in the >wrong place vision wise, but I did not remove it completely. > >Others cite their "pre flight" check like they do their aircraft as their >assurance that their load is secure. I want to remind you that without >exception, every plane that has crashed for many, many years was "preflighted" >and every pilot that crashed did not want to, but it still happened. > >This is a horrible attitude. It shows total disdain for your fellow motorist. >The little child strapped into their seat by a thoughtful mother does not >deserve to have your kayak decapitate them or tomaim for life. Not at all. > >This year it will flood deeper than ever remembered somewhere on this earth. >A hurricane will destroy homes never before destroyed by all the hurricanes in >history. A tornado will destroy lives in communities that have never had one >before and somebody will be hurt or killed by a rooftop load that was not >secured properly. Don't let that somebody be you because of self imposed >vanity. The thoughts you will have to live with the rest of your life are not >worth the macho bravado that some possess. > >If you like to live close to the edge, do it. If you enjoy safe sports, do >it. If you only take up new challenges after "proper instruction by a >certified instructor" then do it, but don't practice your bravado on the >public highway you share with others who don't share your love of kayaks >enough to want one through their windshield. > >My observations of roof loads are that canoe owners secure their load much >better than kayak owners. I don't know the reason, but from reading these >posts, I get the impression that "coolness" has a lot to do with it. Like "I >know how to keep it on with minimum attachments". Folks, this is not good for >us as individuals or as a group. > >Think about this. What if they outlawed carrying boats on roofs? You think >it won't happen? Try driving without your seat belt attached. They outlawed >that didn't they? Made it pretty expensive too! > >We as a group have to not only be responsible, but we have to look >responsible. The mere fact we even own such a "little boat" suggests mental >impairment. Do your share of passing on an image of at least appearing to >care enough to other motorist whether you do or not. > >To those of you who have shared your acts of "going the second mile" in >securing your roof loads, thank you for passing that idea along. I am sure >others are listening, but I don't think they hear what you are saying. Just >keep on saying it. > >If you like taking risks, then do so where you will be the one to suffer the >consequences, not innocent people. > >I am sure of the need for some reading this to "flame that guy". If so, fire >away! You cannot insult me even if you try. And you cannot persuade me to >tie on my load with less vigor than I already do. The life of your child or >somebody elses is worth the extra effort to me. I worked too hard for the >money to buy my boats and I think too much of you to let one fall off and hurt >you or somebody else. And also, I know that just because I have never lost a >load and I tie them on securely that does not mean it will not happen. It >can. Reason enough to go the extra mile. > >Murphy is still in charge you know. > >Thank you, > >John > >PS Racoons in Florida are not any more clever than racoons elsewhere. Given >the combination of a lock, I am confident of any racoon being able to spin >the tumbler properly to open the lock and make mischief. It is just what >"they do best". >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote: > All of the following verbiage is undermined by the fact that no one on this > list has lost a boat due to unavoidable mechanical failure. --snip-- Except for the time the rain gutter trim popped off... Except for the time the gutter to rack attachment broke... Except for the time the rack slipped back along the gutter... I know I'm not the brightest light on the block, and certainly my firends and I never cease to amaze ourselves at just how stupid we can occasionally be. Over the years we have dropped a number of boats and the occasional paddler. Most times we can look back and say, oops, forgot to tie a knot, or oops, forgot to check the attachment, or oops, forgot to make a harness. This tribute to our own incompetency aside, I have to note that on occasion we have broken racks even though we did everything correctly, and had thoroughly checked the system prior to use. Quite simply, metal breaks. Consequently, I tie down my boats so that if one part of the system gives way, the rest of the system will keep the boats secure enough to give me time to pull over. This means making a double harness for each boat, and securing the harnesses to the frame at two points. No rack in and of itself is sufficient to meet these requirements. They are terrific for protecting the roof of the vechicle against scratches and dents, but that's about it. My primary attachment is to the vehicle, not the racks. I guess I'm lucky to have started as a kid with suction cup racks and large open canoes. This sort of attachment was next to useless (when I was old enough for my own car, I stopped using racks until Thule and Yak hit the market), so we had to tie the boats down six ways to Sunday in anticipation of some part in the system blowing apart. This left me with a enduring distrust of racks. Notably, each time one my my new style racks (Thule and Yak) have broken, I have not lost any boats due to my harnessing them to the frame of the vehicle. Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Please describe how the Thule and Yak racks broke, and if there would have been any way to discover or prevent the problem prior to failure. Thanks! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Richard > Culpeper > Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 1:25 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Safety Responsibility and Roof Racks > > > > > Bob Denton wrote: > > > All of the following verbiage is undermined by the fact > that no one on this > > list has lost a boat due to unavoidable mechanical failure. > > --snip-- > > Except for the time the rain gutter trim popped off... > Except for the time the gutter to rack attachment broke... > Except for the time the rack slipped back along the gutter... > > I know I'm not the brightest light on the block, and > certainly my firends and I > never cease to amaze ourselves at just how stupid we can > occasionally be. Over > the years we have dropped a number of boats and the > occasional paddler. Most > times we can look back and say, oops, forgot to tie a knot, > or oops, forgot to > check the attachment, or oops, forgot to make a harness. > > This tribute to our own incompetency aside, I have to note > that on occasion we > have broken racks even though we did everything correctly, > and had thoroughly > checked the system prior to use. Quite simply, metal breaks. > > Consequently, I tie down my boats so that if one part of the > system gives way, > the rest of the system will keep the boats secure enough to > give me time to pull > over. This means making a double harness for each boat, and > securing the > harnesses to the frame at two points. > > No rack in and of itself is sufficient to meet these > requirements. They are > terrific for protecting the roof of the vechicle against > scratches and dents, > but that's about it. My primary attachment is to the > vehicle, not the racks. > > I guess I'm lucky to have started as a kid with suction cup > racks and large open > canoes. This sort of attachment was next to useless (when I > was old enough for > my own car, I stopped using racks until Thule and Yak hit the > market), so we had > to tie the boats down six ways to Sunday in anticipation of > some part in the > system blowing apart. This left me with a enduring distrust of racks. > > Notably, each time one my my new style racks (Thule and Yak) > have broken, I have > not lost any boats due to my harnessing them to the frame of > the vehicle. > > Richard Culpeper > > > > > > ************************************************************** > ************* > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************** > ************* > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:19 PM 11/27/98 -0500, Johnlebl_at_aol.com wrote: >The mere fact we even own such a "little boat" suggests mental >impairment. Pardon me, John? Bill Ridlon Southern Maine Sea Kayaking Network *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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