Scenario: The victim is hypothermic after capsizing several times in his brand new tipy boat. He should not have joined the trip with his level of skill. But now, it is the group's mission to land the victim to safety through dumping surf. The best thing to do is to turn on the radio and call the Coast Guard so that they come and take the victim in their boat. BUT, let us assume that any help is outside of radio range, and the only option left is landing the victim ASAP. What would you do? (not a rethoric question, I really want to know your ideas) My aproach would be to tie a line to the stern of the victim's kayak and send a good paddler with the other end to the beach. Then I would tie another long line to the bow of the victim. rescuer at sea---line---~~~victim in surf~~~---line---rescuer in beach The job of the rescuer at sea is to keep the victim's kayak perpendicular to the waves. The job of the rescuer on the beach is to watch for the right set of waves to pull the victim to the beach. If the victim can not brace, then I might be possible to do the same thing without the kayak, but giving the victim additional flotation to hang on to. However, the victim is already hypothermic. I know this scenario is one of those without a good solution, that is why I am presenting it to the safety conscious people in this list. Comments, please? - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:14 AM 11/5/98 -0800, Julio wrote: >Scenario: > >The victim is hypothermic after capsizing several times >in his brand new tipy boat. now, it is the group's mission to land the >victim to safety through dumping surf. Julio, how about this: If the victim can not brace, ~~~~~~~victim in surf~~~---line---rescuer in beach ~~~rescuer in surf The job of the rescuer at sea is to keep the victim's kayak upright and perpendicular to the waves, facing towards the waves. That Rescuer will use a short line from his/her deck to the victim's deck, possibly also bridging between the two decks with a secured paddle. Those two boats would be side-by-side, but staggered to allow the surf rescuer to use his paddle effectively. If the victim can help hold his boat to the rescuer's boat that will help, but should not be relied on in surf. Any line or paddle connecting boats must be releasable by the rescuers in case of necessity. The job of the rescuer on the beach is to watch for the right set of waves and to pull both the victim and the other rescuer to the beach. This is a very good and realistic question you have posed. I strongly advocate group practice of any proposed solutions to help flush out the non-obvious pros and cons. Keep on thinkin'! John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
rescuer at sea---line---~~~victim in surf~~~---line---rescuer in beach > That could be a very long line. If it doesn't stretch that far, bring the beach guy back out and shepard the victim in, one on either side of him. His/her job is simply to keep the 3 boats rafted. > I don't have any practical experience and more than likely would be the guy in the middle. > The fastest way in might be to just let him dump again and let the surf take him in :-). Been there, done that. Not in any homongous surf though. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In my opinion, having two or more adjacent kayaks landing together in close proximity through dumping surf is a TERRIBLE idea. Sea kayaks are very difficult to control in the surf, and almost always turn immediately into a broach. The forces incorporated into a surfing sea kayak are tremendous. If the victim and rescuer(s) are caught by the same wave, then chances of a brutal collision are very high. I think that this would put the rescuer AND rescuee into greater danger than before, which is a cardinal sin in any kind of rescue. Cheers, kevin ___________________ / Kevin Whilden \ |Dept. of Geosciences \___ |University of Washington \ |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| \________________________/ On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Sisler, Clyde wrote: > rescuer at sea---line---~~~victim in surf~~~---line---rescuer in beach > > > That could be a very long line. If it doesn't stretch that far, bring the > beach guy back out and shepard the victim in, one on either side of him. > His/her job is simply to keep the 3 boats rafted. > > > I don't have any practical experience and more than likely would be the > guy in the middle. > > > The fastest way in might be to just let him dump again and let the surf > take him in :-). Been there, done that. Not in any homongous surf though. > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-11-05 14:19:08 EST, juliom_at_cisco.com writes: << The victim is hypothermic after capsizing several times in his brand new tipy boat. He should not have joined the trip with his level of skill. But now, it is the group's mission to land the victim to safety through dumping surf. The best thing to do is to turn on the radio and call the Coast Guard so that they come and take the victim in their boat. >> Interesting scenario, Julio. Have been watching a few of the early comments, and they're all interesting. To the question of calling the Coast Guard to pull the guy out --- unless you're right off a manned USCG station, it's going to take them a while to get there. (From my experience flying SAR missions with them, it's going to take a <long> while.) And victims don't get less hypothermic with time --- they get worse, and they get worse faster with time. Don't think anyone's commented on that issue yet, but getting the USCG out there <quickly> is probably not going to be viable in most instances. You've gotta get this guy onto the beach fast. But you don't really have to worry about his boat. If he's, in fact, hypothermic --- irrational, uncontrolled shaking, unable to help himself --- his boat may now be his worst enemy. <He> can't take care of it, and another paddler or two trying to raft up with him is only going to complicate the issue, especially in dumping surf. You get two guys on either side of him --- and I'll assume that nobody in the group is really experienced in surf rescues --- and somebody's going to be wearing somebody else's kayak pretty soon. >From my experience, there's no way you're going to safely land two or three rafted boats in dumping surf, especially when one of these folks is totally incapacitated. Without thinking further, my reaction would be to get most of the group onto the beach fast, and then get the hypothermic paddler out of his boat and send him in with another swimmer --- hopefully with a solid paddlefloat or some other solid flotation device in addition to the PFD. No long lines --- no short lines. Or somebody's going to be wearing <them> around their necks, too. The paddlers on the beach help the swimmer when he gets the victim in close, once he's through the impact zone. One last paddler stays with the empty boats and sends them in on their own later, when the area is clear. My thoughts. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I should add that I really like Jack's scenario below. A couple of improvements would be to copy what lifeguards do to rescue incapacitated swimmers through surf. Do they use those orange bouys, or do they physically hold onto the swimmer? I never did junior lifeguards, so I have no idea, although I might guess that they use both depending on the state of the swimmer and the surf. Are there any beach lifeguards on this list? One other idea is that it might work to send strong swimmers back out to bring in the abandoned kayaks once the rescue is completed. This depends on the swimmers and the surf. Good scenario, Jack! - KW On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > Without thinking further, my reaction would be to get most of the group onto > the beach fast, and then get the hypothermic paddler out of his boat and send > him in with another swimmer --- hopefully with a solid paddlefloat or some > other solid flotation device in addition to the PFD. No long lines --- no > short lines. Or somebody's going to be wearing <them> around their necks, > too. The paddlers on the beach help the swimmer when he gets the victim in > close, once he's through the impact zone. One last paddler stays with the > empty boats and sends them in on their own later, when the area is clear. > > My thoughts. > > Jack Martin > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, K. Whilden wrote: > I should add that I really like Jack's scenario below. A couple of > improvements would be to copy what lifeguards do to rescue incapacitated > swimmers through surf. Do they use those orange bouys, or do they > physically hold onto the swimmer? Around here there tend to be 3 choices of equipment for the life guards, a double handled "torpedo", an oversized flotation belt with a short (roughly 3 foot) tow rope with shoulder loop, and an overstuffed surfboard. In dumping waves I would probably chose the retrieval belt. The harness loop goes over the rescuers shoulder and the flotation belt goes around the swimmers chest, the swimmer then gets towed in backwards. With the short tow rope you get to keep the swimmer away from you. Lifeguards want to avoid getting in grabbing range of the swimmer. The standard ingrained mantra is "reach, row, throw, go". kirk long ago a life guard *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > But you don't really have to worry about his boat. If he's, in fact, > hypothermic --- irrational, uncontrolled shaking, unable to help himself --- > his boat may now be his worst enemy. <He> can't take care of it, and another > paddler or two trying to raft up with him is only going to complicate the > issue, especially in dumping surf. You get two guys on either side of him --- > and I'll assume that nobody in the group is really experienced in surf rescues > --- and somebody's going to be wearing somebody else's kayak pretty soon. > >From my experience, there's no way you're going to safely land two or three > rafted boats in dumping surf, especially when one of these folks is totally > incapacitated. > > Without thinking further, my reaction would be to get most of the group onto > the beach fast, and then get the hypothermic paddler out of his boat and send > him in with another swimmer --- hopefully with a solid paddlefloat or some > other solid flotation device in addition to the PFD. No long lines --- no > short lines. Or somebody's going to be wearing <them> around their necks, > too. The paddlers on the beach help the swimmer when he gets the victim in > close, once he's through the impact zone. One last paddler stays with the > empty boats and sends them in on their own later, when the area is clear. > > My thoughts. > > Jack Martin Jack's thoughts seem to be the most practical. All that talk of lines to and fro and rafted up paddlers coming through surf sounded screwy and dangerous. In the first idea, using lines fore and aft, the hypothermic guy in his tippy boat would not able to keep his boat upright and would wind up spinning like that old game of spinning a button on a line. Rafted boats would collide, shoulders would get wrenched trying to hold boats together, hands and fingers broken, etc. The only other possible solution, assuming that the whole situation started outside the surf zone would be to transfer the guy to a more stable boat. Then someone, a swimmer, would hang on to the back of the boat as a sea anchor guiding it in through the surf letting every wave push them both closer to the beach. Yes, some paddlers going in earlier would be there to help the last few yards. The virtue of this approach with the hypothermic paddler is that it keeps him in the boat and out of the cold water which would only make his hypothermia worsen. My understanding from some military stuff I have heard is that in real rough Australian surf, Aussie military teams in double folding kayaks will have one of the team members become a swimmer and hang on to the rear of the boat to act as that sea anchor or rudder. This technique slows progress into the beach and keeps the boat from broaching. (The military rudder has a handhold cut into it that is lined with rubber just so the swimmer can do precisely that.) Now this normally has the remaining team member who is in the boat doing some propelling, bracing, ruddering etc with his paddle. But in the emergency situation posited by Julio just getting the victim to be a lump in the boat would probably be good enough. Joe Weight who paddled a double folding kayak solo from Grenada to Puerto Rico would regularly swim his loaded kayak in that way when he faced surf he was concerned about navigating. So it is a fairly well tried out technique. (In exiting through real rough stuff, he would tie the boat to himself and tow it out.) In his case and in the case of the Aussie military all carried swim fins (it's part of their job description). So much more control and power could be applied during the swim in with the boat using fins. I guess in the group facing Julio's emergency, the person in the group with the biggest feet should be designated the swimmer. :-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio, Great scenario. We were in a similar position a couple of years back. After breaking through a small surf in fog, we found that the swell had come up overnight and we had waves up to 6-8 feet breaking on two outlying bars. Out of the 8 paddlers, 3 were capsized and swam, one capsized and rolled, and I rolled under one big ugly one that was about to break right on top of me. After getting back together in the fog we headed away. A while late one of the group became sea sick. Following some discussion two of us towed him. He wnated to be anywhere but in the boat, and we ended up doing a recce at the next beach up. Despite the large surf, there were very clear rip channels where we could have towed him in with negligible surf. We elected to carry on to get slack water at a tide race, and then landed in comparative shelter around an hour later. Even though it was summer and warm, he ended up mildly hypothermic which because of our paddling and the temperature surprised us (not always easy to put yourself in the victim's position). We all lived to tell the tale, but it was a major learning experience. In terms of landing a victim through surf... I have always found that in big surf, rip channels etc become better formed as all that water has to flow out somewhere. The only way to see them clearly however is to be on the beach, and perferably up above it. You may be surprised how often there is an easy approach where it may be possible to tow in. Consequently you would need to scout the beach first, or have someone there to guide you in. If there is no easy way in, I would certainly never attempt to tow or raft up. In fact the thought of this gives me the shudders as even small surf turns kayaks into lethal projectiles! In large dumping surf even a strong swimmer could be in difficulty, and bouyant items (people swimming with PFD's) are more likely to be caught in a breaking waves and tumbled. Some of the highly surf skilled people I know never ever where PFD's while surf paddling for this very reason. There's only one relatively safe place in the break zone, and that's deep underwater! I would place the odds high trying to swim in the incapacitated person could drown them. Lifeguards tend to use an overgrown surf board or surf ski (assuming of course you don't carry an inflatable rubber ducky and outboard motor with you in your kayak..) so they can deck-carry the swimmer in, and allow the wave's force to carry them in. So if possible to carry them in on the stern deck of one boat, I guess that would be my preferred option (more shuddering!). Yep, great scenario, and fascinating responses! Glyn Dickson Auckland Paddling Perfection New Zealand Finest Quality Handcrafted Kayaks *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
My initial reaction was that I would have the victim swim to shore with a support team on the beach assisted by a strong swimmer in the water. Some of the responses on this thread have been very thought-provoking. Carrying a swimmer on the aft deck, with a hold on your waist might be a good solution depending on your circumstances but my belief is that the victim would probably not hang on long in violent surf. I usually side-surf the kayak to the beach in rough surf and this would leave the victim struggling to hold on and possibly getting hit by the paddle should they pivot around perpendicular to the keel. Perhaps keeping the bow to the surf and landing backwards would be a better approach, but sooner or later the boat will broach. As someone else has noted, even if the victim falls off, they would at least be closer to shore than if they had started swimming. If you successfully arrive near the beach carrying the victim, I would prefer to have the victim drop off and swim the remaining yards to the beach rather than risk the kayak injuring the victim upon landing (the kayak could roll or entrap a limb while sliding up the beach). Ralph's idea of putting the victim in a stable boat and having a strong swimmer guide them to shore has merit. As an enhancement, I would place a paddlefloat over each end of the victim's paddle blades outside of the surf zone. If the victim has enough strength and dexterity to hold the paddle, this might add to the chance of success. Greg Stamer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio, My intial reaction to your scenario is how long are the lines that you typically carry? I use a 50 foot line for towing, which is a good length for this purpose. I do not carry anything longer. With two 50 foot lines, then chances are that the two rescuers in your proposed solution would also be in the surf, which would make it rather impossible for the rescuers to do anything but watch out for their own necks. Even if the lines were long enough to permit the rescuers to stay outside of the surf zone, I think it would folly of the highest degree to attempt to hold on to a rope which is also attached to a sea kayak being surfed by a wave. Can you imagine the forces? Worst case scenario is having your arm ripped out of your socket. One possible solution to this scenario would be to use a sea anchor or drogue to keep the paddle facing perpindicular to the waves while he is backing in towards shore. I personally would not want to take the pounding that this would produce in dumping surf, but it might be better than having the hypotherminc person swim to shore. Of course, given your scenario, a swim is probably likely in any case. This person is probably in big trouble. Of course, the cop-out answer to your scenario is simply "don't get into this situation in the first place". I would be quite careful of taking anyonewith questionable skills into an area with dumping surf. Hope this helps, Kevin ___________________ / Kevin Whilden \ |Dept. of Geosciences \___ |University of Washington \ |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| \________________________/ On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Julio MacWilliams wrote: > Scenario: > > The victim is hypothermic after capsizing several times > in his brand new tipy boat. He should not have joined the trip with > his level of skill. But now, it is the group's mission to land the > victim to safety through dumping surf. > > The best thing to do is to turn on the radio and call the Coast Guard > so that they come and take the victim in their boat. > BUT, let us assume that any help is outside of radio range, and the only > option left is landing the victim ASAP. > > What would you do? (not a rethoric question, I really want to know > your ideas) > > > My aproach would be to tie a line to the stern of the victim's kayak > and send a good paddler with the other end to the beach. Then I would > tie another long line to the bow of the victim. > > rescuer at sea---line---~~~victim in surf~~~---line---rescuer in beach > > The job of the rescuer at sea is to keep the victim's kayak perpendicular > to the waves. The job of the rescuer on the beach is to watch for the > right set of waves to pull the victim to the beach. > > If the victim can not brace, then I might be possible to do the same > thing without the kayak, but giving the victim additional flotation > to hang on to. However, the victim is already hypothermic. > > > I know this scenario is one of those without a good solution, that > is why I am presenting it to the safety conscious people in this list. > > Comments, please? > > - Julio > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Scenario: >I know this scenario is one of those without a good solution, that >is why I am presenting it to the safety conscious people in this list. > >Comments, please? What about a contact tow with the victim holding onto your bow? This might offer a more stable approach through the surf. Any problems with this? -Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Maun pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-11-05 17:01:33 EST, kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu writes: << One other idea is that it might work to send strong swimmers back out to bring in the abandoned kayaks once the rescue is completed. This depends on the swimmers and the surf. >> I'd be very careful with that idea, I think. The boats' cockpits will have filled up by then --- I hope Julio's rules were that only bulkheaded composite boats or plastic boats with bulkheads <and> flotation bags could be used --- and are going to be very heavy. An onshore breeze and the surf will bring them in eventually. A swimmer will have a lot of trouble controlling a flooded boat, and could get into serious problems trying. I think I'd send the fastest guys out running to a phone or the nearest Bay Watch stand, and I'd put the other slower, fatter warmer guys in a plastic body bag with the victim to try to stablilize or reverse his temperature drop. I'm also very interested in hearing what the surf lifeguards would do. With a kayaker, you've got a little more to get a grip on than with a swimmer. (And Julio's rules <did>, of course, include helmets, right?) The collision factor, even with a rescuer and a non-cooperative rescuee --- who could be combative by now, depending how many times we've whopped him upside the head with a paddle trying to get him upright again --- would be a real dangerous situation for an average sea kayaker. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>on Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Sisler, Clyde wrote: >> > That could be a very long line. If it doesn't stretch that far, bring the >> beach guy back out and shepard the victim in, one on either side of him. >> His/her job is simply to keep the 3 boats rafted. >> At 01:41 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Kevin wrote: >In my opinion, having two or more adjacent kayaks landing together in >close proximity through dumping surf is a TERRIBLE idea. Sea kayaks are >very difficult to control in the surf, and almost always turn immediately >into a broach. The forces incorporated into a surfing sea kayak are >tremendous. If the victim and rescuer(s) are caught by the same wave, then >chances of a brutal collision are very high. I think that this would put >the rescuer AND rescuee into greater danger than before, which is a >cardinal sin in any kind of rescue. Both have stated valid concerns, and there are others. But it seems to me that a lot depends on what level of surf we're dealing with, as well as what level of incapacitation of the victim. What may work in 2-3 foot dumpers won't necessarily work in 4-8 foot or larger surf. That's why trying it out for real and practicing it will help develop the paddlers' judgment required to know the difference and to assess the situation when it confronts us. Wish someone will tell us what they've actually tried, along with a very complete description of the conditions and resulting observations. I recall Steph Dutton describing in Sea Kayaker magazine his use of a drogue to counter broaching, and then backing into the beach through some really big breakers, both solo and with two boats linked by a towline. But that was not with a hypothermic or unconscious paddler. May everybody's surfing be intentional, or at least fun! John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:14 05-11-98 -0800, Julio MacWilliams <juliom_at_cisco.com> wrote: [snip] > > rescuer at sea---line---~~~victim in surf~~~---line---rescuer in beach boat --- rope --- neck --- rope --- boat ==== | | | O = ^ /|\ | ^ / \ > >Comments, please? > [snip] strangulation, waiting to happen. guy tips over boat fills, and rolls, spinning the rope that was yanked out of the other's hands, and wrapping it around the victim's neck, and he either gets a broken neck, or strangles?? ropes are dangerous around moving water... mark [sorry, no solutions off the top of my head, this doesn't happen where i sea kayak!!] #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page #-Fortune: "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" -- Scott McNealy, CEO Sun Microsystems "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" -- Dave Livigni *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
OK, I need to add my two cents to this discussion. First of all, as several others have said, lines in the surf are a really bad idea. I instruct people to disconnect their paddle leashes when coming through the surf. Forget the tow ropes. Likewise, rafting up and coming in through the surf is just asking to compound the problem. As I see it, the victim is hypothermic and needs to get to shore now! If I thought I could coach the person in through the surf, then I would come in with them (at a safe distance beside them) and bring them in that way. At the very least I could get them close enough to shore to where they could walk in the rest of the way after they capsized, or someone else could wade out and get them, or I could exit my boat and bring them in. If they were too far gone that I didn't believe they could paddle, then I think the next option would be to have them climb out of their boat and lie on my back deck, arms around my waist with their feet apart and in the water for stability. I believe I could land a person through all but the hairiest of surf in this fashion. At the very least I could get them close enough to shore so that if I did lose it and capsize I could exit my boat and swim (walk?) the victim the rest of the way in. Trying to tow the victim in while they are in the water holding onto your grabloop I do not see to be a viable option. What happens when they lose their grip while you are hurdling towards shore on a wave? How long will the swimmer be left alone while you try and turn around and go back to get them? If the person is really that hypothermic then what happened to the boats would be the least of my concerns. Besides, it's a funny thing about the surf - everything usually ends up on the sand eventually. I believe I could withstand the short swim without having to worry about also becoming hypothermic, at least until I was on the shore and better able to deal with it. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: KiAyker_at_aol.com <KiAyker_at_aol.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Landing a victim through surf > . Forget the >tow ropes. Likewise, rafting up and coming in through the surf is just asking >to compound the problem. I agree with this. Tow lines(especially short ones or contact tows) are just bombs waiting to be lit by the next big breaker. I >think the next option would be to have them climb out of their boat and lie on >my back deck, arms around my waist with their feet apart and in the water for >stability. This sounds reasonable. I presume that a couple of competent paddlers would land and be there to assist the landing if needed. Question. Once the person gets on the back of your boat and the two of you proceed on/in one boat-what happens with the empty boat? Others in the group should be diligent in removing potential debris(boats,paddles)from slamming you if you are underway with a swimmer on your back deck. Speaking of the others-a scenario such as this sometimes starts the domino effect. Those with skills sufficient to land in the surf but not with practiced surf rescue skills are beyond their comfort level when faced with stopping and dealing with a capsize/problem. This can often multiply the number of problems/capsizes/rescues. Great scenario. Great discussion. Thanks. Dennis Sunny New Hampshire >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; --(SNIP) >The only other possible solution, assuming that the whole situation >started outside the surf zone would be to transfer the guy to a more >stable boat. Then someone, a swimmer, would hang on to the back of the >boat as a sea anchor guiding it in through the surf letting every wave >push them both closer to the beach. Yes, some paddlers going in earlier >would be there to help the last few yards. The virtue of this approach >with the hypothermic paddler is that it keeps him in the boat and out of >the cold water which would only make his hypothermia worsen. > (SNIP) Using the body as a sea anchor worked for me (did it by accident and on purpose) although I found the sea anchor worked better. The thing that I found most disconcerting about this was when I tried doing it with regular hand toggles on the ends. If the boat tried to spin (and it did sometimes) ones hand got wound up in the handle. Very painful if you don't let go quickly enough. I now use the trapeze handles used by sailors fastened to the boat with stainless steel cable. These rotate freely so won't jam the hands. If you have a rudder on the boat you will want to grab the bow rather than the stern as you drift in. Rudders can cause serious injury when near your head. Also, the tails on most handles lack length to trail clear of the rudder. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-11-06 08:52:44 EST, gstamer_at_magicnet.net writes: << Ralph's idea of putting the victim in a stable boat and having a strong swimmer guide them to shore has merit. As an enhancement, I would place a paddlefloat over each end of the victim's paddle blades outside of the surf zone. If the victim has enough strength and dexterity to hold the paddle, this might add to the chance of success. >> Greg's idea is one of the most interesting additions yet. Dual flotation on the paddle! But it also shows that we all have been refining Julio's original scenario a bit. Since it was his idea --- and an excellent one --- maybe he could define some ranges for us to think about. Like, what's "dumping surf" --- to my mind, the stuff I have to deal with on our mid-Atlantic beaches, three to four foot, very short periodic waves that break very close to the beach. In our scenario, is that what we're thinking? Bigger? What's the water and air temperature --- not to set off a sub-thread on what gear is needed and when, <please>, but just to set the scene? How is the victim dressed, and how does his personal gear compare to the others in the group? And, most importantly, <how> hypothermic is the victim right now? Is he in mild hypothermia, where he's reasonably coherent and rational, but is shaking and not as coordinated as he probably should be to make his own landing in surf, stabilized or not? Is his body temperature dropping --- I know we can't tell, but is he moderately hypothermic, with a definite loss of coordination, orientation and mental stability? Or is he approaching severe hypothermia, where he may be only semi-conscious or even unconscious? How bad is he now --- 'cause he's not going to get better but will definitely get worse until we can get him out of his cold, wet environment and into a rewarming situation of some sort. Which begs another issue which I tried to introduce yesterday, hoping someone with more competence in hypothermia would jump on --- but what are we going to do with this guy when we do get him on the beach? This could be any or all of us, and at least one of "us" in this paddling group ought to know and to have equipment <with him or her> --- not in the boat that we left 50 meters offshore when we swam him ashore --- to help our friend survive. Do we carry a survival "body bag" in a bailout kit? Is at least one of "us" in this paddling group competent to help our buddy once we get him out of the water? Does somebody have CPR training? And if the answer is no, what does that say about the trip? And the leader? Just other things to think about as we try to get this guy out of whatever "worst case" scenario we've defined for him. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-11-06 08:52:44 EST, gstamer_at_magicnet.net writes: > > << > Ralph's idea of putting the victim in a stable boat and having a strong > swimmer guide them to shore has merit. As an enhancement, I would place a > paddlefloat over each end of the victim's paddle blades outside of the surf > zone. If the victim has enough strength and dexterity to hold the paddle, > this might add to the chance of success. >> > > Greg's idea is one of the most interesting additions yet. Dual flotation on > the paddle! I was once on a July Manhattan circumnavigation when on the narrow part of the East River (between Manhattan and Roosevelt Island) we got hit with a horrendous summer lightning storm with winds in excess of 40 miles an hour and visibility dropped to about 25 feet in the large stinging hail and torrential rains. We fell into two large pods of rafted up kayaks, joining in whatever position we were at the moment, as the 4 knot current propelled us along Manhattan's seawall. I attached to one of these pods facing backwards. I noticed that one fellow in a double Klepper fearful for his life (we all were, what with the lightning and zero visibility in narrow waters in which large vessels were seen plying through just moments before the storm hit) took out two paddle floats and placed one on each blade. That Klepper became one of the most stable boats ever at that point. I have often thought of that move by him when I am not having nightmares about the predicament we were in. (After the storm blow by, the seawall service road became alive with police cars and ambulances searching for us and two harbor patrol vessels appeared. Pedestrians had seen our 20 boat group on the water as the storm hit and placed frentic 911 calls. Rescue people were certain that a disaster had occured among the kayakers. We were all fine except for being soaking wet and a bit bruised by the hail stones.) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 98-11-06 10:34:44 EST, kolsen_at_imagelan.com writes: << Around here there tend to be 3 choices of equipment for the life guards, a double handled "torpedo", an oversized flotation belt with a short (roughly 3 foot) tow rope with shoulder loop, and an overstuffed surfboard. In dumping waves I would probably chose the retrieval belt. The harness loop goes over the rescuers shoulder and the flotation belt goes around the swimmers chest, the swimmer then gets towed in backwards. With the short tow rope you get to keep the swimmer away from you. >> Can you translate the above into what an average sea kayaking group can best do with equipment at hand --- and that's probably not more than a paddlefloat or two and maybe a contact tow line --- to get this guy to the beach, Kirk? How does what he's wearing --- a PFD, maybe a neoprene farmer john and a helmet --- influence what a lifeguard would do? Given what our group probably has to work with, and assuming the surf was too big and the victim too weak to effect his own landing in any reasonable safety --- both to himself and to others --- how do we adapt your surf lifeguard techniques and equipment to save this guy's life? Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack, One cautionary note - trying to handle a person through surf (breaking waves over three feet tall) can be quite difficult if you are not a _strong_ swimmer and practiced in life guarding skills. This is a good one to practice with a friend on a day with some good waves on a soft sandy beach. The old rescue adage always applies - don't create another victim..... Most of the people that I have paddled with were better paddlers than they were swimmers. As far as flotation for the victim - I think that a person wearing a PFD has plenty of flotation (from the swimming rescuer's point of view), but there may be instances where extra flotation could be beneficial. If the victim is hypothermic yet somewhat functional it would be very helpful to have them hold onto an inflated paddle float, but if the hypothermic victim is unconcious or unable to handle simple motor tasks then the rescuer is going to have to support the victim. This is where some of the lifeguard's tools really work well, but it might be hard to find effective substitutes among normal paddling gear. I think that I would simply rely on the flotation provided by my PFD rather than trying to hold onto both the unconscious victim and a flotation device. Another thought that I had about this idea of swimming the victim in is that the direct exposure to the water is going to accelerate the hypothermic reactions making it even more critical to begin quick and effective treatment of the symptoms once on shore. A very thought-provoking scenario....thanks Julio! Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska > -----Original Message----- > > In a message dated 98-11-06 10:34:44 EST, kolsen_at_imagelan.com writes: > > << Around here there tend to be 3 choices of equipment for the life > guards, > a double handled "torpedo", an oversized flotation belt with a short > (roughly > 3 foot) tow rope with shoulder loop, and an overstuffed surfboard. > > In dumping waves I would probably chose the retrieval belt. The > harness > loop goes over the rescuers shoulder and the flotation belt goes > around the > swimmers chest, the swimmer then gets towed in backwards. With the > short > tow rope you get to keep the swimmer away from you. >> > > then Jack wrote: > Can you translate the above into what an average sea kayaking group > can best > do with equipment at hand --- and that's probably not more than a > paddlefloat > or two and maybe a contact tow line --- to get this guy to the beach, > Kirk? > How does what he's wearing --- a PFD, maybe a neoprene farmer john and > a > helmet --- influence what a lifeguard would do? Given what our group > probably > has to work with, and assuming the surf was too big and the victim too > weak to > effect his own landing in any reasonable safety --- both to himself > and to > others --- how do we adapt your surf lifeguard techniques and > equipment to > save this guy's life? > > Jack Martin > ********************************************************************** > ***** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ********************************************************************** > ***** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Julio; If the swimmer is in the water do a swimmer rescue and surf/broach the boat in (rolling with a swimmer on your back deck is not too hard providing they hang on and keep their weight low). A drouge is the best idea. I'd be hard pressed to get out of (and desert) my boat and be a drouge for somone else except for dire circumstances. Depending on the extent of the injury it's possible to have the injured person hang on to the coaming of their boat and be pulled in as their boat is broached in. John Winskill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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