Thanks to George for his cold water article and many great links. I tend to paddle year round unless the ice gets too thick to break through. In the winter I always wear a wet suit and used to wear a dry suit until mine got ripped. We have had a surprisingly warm Fall (for Canada) with it being a few degrees above freezing this week, and I have twice been lazy and just gone out for a short paddle (5-6 km along the shoreline) without the wetsuit (I did wear other stuff :-) ). Your article has smartened me up. Back to the wet suit and I am thinking seriously about getting a new dry suit. I guess I should have paid more attention to the dry suit model recommendations a while ago. Thanks again. John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/2/98 8:16:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, waddinj_at_recorder.ca writes: << Thanks to George for his cold water article and many great links. I tend to paddle year round unless the ice gets too thick to break through. In the winter I always wear a wet suit and used to wear a dry suit until mine got ripped. >> John brings up some good points --- and appropriate in light of the death of "Rhino" Hancock on Lake Erie last Saturday. The most important question on wet suits and dry suits --- and I'm not trying to open a thread on this, necessarily --- is are you confident in swimming whatever you're wearing? And <do> you swim what you wear periodically, as the water temps decline, to make sure you're still confident that your equipment of choice will keep you functional in cold water? Not comfortable, but functional. In a cold water clinic which the Chesapeake Paddlers ran last January, anyone who wanted to paddle that day had to first swim their gear for 10 to 15 minutes --- a sorta worst case scenario representation of a cold water rescue. (The water was in the high 30s F., and we had a lot of backup emergency help which, fortunately, wasn't needed.) It's a very good idea to get in the habit of seeing what it would really be like to have to swim before you <have to swim>! The few folks who were counting on wet suits at that workshop soon became converts to drysuits, and a few of the folks who were already using drysuits found problems with their specific drysuit systems --- the ones they'd been counting on --- in a controlled enxironment. So, John, have you swum chunky water much? Gonna get a drysuit or repair your old one? Works great, especially when it's zipped up. ____________ Off post: thanks to Chuck Sutherland for the NOAA environmental data on last week's Lake Erie incident. The Cleveland Plain Dealer indicated that the official water temp was 50 F., but also stated that this temperature was taken at the water intake, 35 feet below the surface. Chuck's info states that the surface temp was 45 F., air temp about the same, and windy with gusts. Survivable with a drysuit, at least for quite a while --- but not if it were not zipped up, as may have been the case with "Rhino". For what it's worth, folks --- equipment won't help you if you don't use it correctly. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > John brings up some good points --- and appropriate in light of the death of > "Rhino" Hancock on Lake Erie last Saturday. The most important question on > wet suits and dry suits --- and I'm not trying to open a thread on this, > necessarily --- is are you confident in swimming whatever you're wearing? And > <do> you swim what you wear periodically, as the water temps decline, to make > sure you're still confident that your equipment of choice will keep you > functional in cold water? Not comfortable, but functional. Well, you are starting a thread :-) There are definite schools of thought on safety gear and testing it under every condition. It certainly makes good sense to wear a dry suit, closed (that includes no neck rings that defeat the neck gasket), plenty of insulation, neoprene gloves and hood, etc. That is really the only outfit that can stand the 15 minute comfortable immersion test you had at the cold water shop last january. But I think we are getting to a worse-case scenario mania akin to the recent discussion of roof racks on this listserver where it came down to extra sets of straps and finally came down to bolting the boat bottom through the car roof. I am seeing a can-you-top-this attitude emerge in safety gear and preparation. An example is that paddle CPA had at near 70 degree air temperature and mid-60s water temperature and calm conditions in which people were stopped from paddling with the group if they had no cold water gear on. Leaders are free to set any standard they want and certainly hypothermia is a killer and you can die of it in 80 degree water if exposed long enough. But when is enough enough? I think you are right on the proper use of the gear. Rhino, if indeed his dry suit zipper were open, was defeating the way his gear worked. The same as the guy who died in NJ (was it?) who had a dry suit and just a bathing suit underneath. But there are levels of protection that will work. Your example of guys trying out their wet suits in the 30s degree water and becoming dry suit converts is a case in point. Their wet suits functioned. No, they were not up to a 15 minute comfortable swim but they were functional. Is it survival we are talking about or comfortably thriving in the cold water? If the criteria is to be happy and comfortable in the water for 15 minutes or more than certainly the lines are pretty clear. Wear a wet suit when water temperature drops below 70 degrees or so; immersion for prolonged periods while you are scared and away from shore in anything less would be uncomfortable. And a dry suit when it is below 60 or so. If the criteria is to be survivable, then the thresholds would be quite a bit lower. Don't get me wrong. I wear a dry suit when the water temperature drops below 45 degrees or so and a full wet suit below 55 degrees. Would I be happy at 50 in the wet suit? No. Would I survive and function, Yes, miserable but okay. The alternate would be to be uncomfortable for the hours and hours I would be paddling at those water temperatures in 60 degree air temperature conditions. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/2/98 8:16:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, > So, John, have you swum chunky water much? Gonna get a drysuit or repair your > old one? Works great, especially when it's zipped up. > In the past I have often swum in chunky water using both wet suits and a dry suit. The first time that I went into the water in the dry suit I popped up like the Michelin Man, until I released the air from the neck seal. It is a good thing to practise. Being suddenly immersed in icy water is quite an experience! My original dry suit was purchased about 12-15 years ago and I know that they have improved considerably since then. I would appreciate some advice on what to buy. I know that this was discussed before, so if you want, you could email me directly. On the other hand, I think that Jackie mentioned that all previous postings are archived. How do we get to those? John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
which, fortunately, wasn't needed.) It's a very good idea to get in the habit of seeing what it would really be like to have to swim before you <have to swim>! The few folks who were counting on wet suits at that workshop soon > That's probably something that should be taped on your foredeck or someplace you will be constantly reminded. I'd be interested to know how others dress under the dry suit (don't get too personal). Do you dress as you might for air temperatures? In my case, I won't be out in very cold air temperatures, not much less the 50-60F (I hope). The water will probably be less than 40-50F though. I was kinda planning on synthentic long johns, polortec sweat pants, and a polortec shirt and/or sweater underneath the dry suit with a heavier winter wind breaker if needed on the outside. In any case, I think I will try out whatever combo I come up with by, at least, wading out chest deep to get a dose of reality. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sisler, Clyde wrote: > I'd be interested to know how others dress under the dry suit (don't get too > personal). Do you dress as you might for air temperatures? > > In my case, I won't be out in very cold air temperatures, not much less the > 50-60F (I hope). The water will probably be less than 40-50F though. At a _minimum_ for the dry suit to work at all you should be wearing around Polartec 100 or so for top and bottom but that will not take you very far down in the cold water range beyond the high 40s. (And personal stuff like garters and net stockings etc. a la Dennis Rodman. Dry suits are great for discreet cross dressing ;-)). Then it is a matter of balancing air and water temperature. 40 degree water would need around Polartec 200 at a _minimum_ and be tolerable at 60 degeee air temperature. While others might disagree, a Goretex dry suit would seem to require a bit more insulation than a fully coated one. Some heat is lost via the breathing\body-moisture venting process of the Goretex whereas a fully coated suit keeps all the heat and moisture inside. But if in a fully coated suit, you need to have stuff that wicks moisture away from your skin. Again, I am looking at what you said about not being in air temperature below 50 degrees but perhaps in water under 40. A lot depends on your intentions. If you were planning to play in surf in Rhode Island in January or February with air temperatures in the 20s, water in the 30s and likely to be doing a lot of swimming, then you would want lots of stuff underneath, 300 Polartec or possibly a wet suit such as the Polartec 2000 stuff. This is what I was trying to drive at with my previous posting. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>In my case, I won't be out in very cold air temperatures, not much less the >50-60F (I hope). The water will probably be less than 40-50F though. I was >kinda planning on synthentic long johns, polortec sweat pants, and a >polortec shirt and/or sweater underneath the dry suit with a heavier winter >wind breaker if needed on the outside. Be careful not to overdress. I usually wear a pair of long johns and a pair of expedition weight capillene pants over those. My lower body doesn't generally overheat though. My upper body does get quit hot when paddling so I generally wear only a capillene t-shirt with a medium weight capillene shirt over that. This is for 30F+ air with 30-40F water. If it gets much colder I'll put on another shirt. I think one danger with over dressing is the perspiration that builds up and ends up soaking everything you're wearing. And yes, I do swim quite a bit -- I mean, how else am I going to justify spending that $600 on a drysuit if I don't at least put it to good use by body surfing in Lake Superior? -Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Maun pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/2/98 5:30:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, waddinj_at_recorder.ca writes: << I guess I should have paid more attention to the dry suit model recommendations a while ago. Thanks again. >> Speaking of meaningful posts, I'm wondering if there's an archive that can be searched, as there is for newsgroups. BijiliE *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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