I'm in the process of buying a new sleeping bag and am torn between the polartec 200 and polartec 300. I haven't decided whether I'll be camping in mid winter or not. Anyone know if they lose their loft when wet? The other option might be bag made from no-seum netting or just a Gore-Tex bag cover. Anyone have any suggestions? cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Depending on where you live and how cold you are talking about, you can get a synthetic bag that will compress quite small. I use a compression sack on a tall, thin stuff sack and can really get that baby small. I own three high quality synthetic bags of differing temps and a huge down bag. I prefer to know my bag will work even if my dry bag does not. Your call. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
How about summertime Southeast Alaska? >Depending on where you live and how cold you are talking about, you can get a >synthetic bag that will compress quite small. I use a compression sack on a >tall, thin stuff sack and can really get that baby small. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Wes wrote: >I'm undecided over whether to get a high-end synthetic bag, or a down >bag. You've hit all the salient points, but we'd need to know what temperatures you usually encounter. Another problem with a down bag is that it may be too hot for your applications. Nevertheless, if I was to have only one bag it would be down. I would think that you'd probably be sea kayaking in situations where a wet bag would not be life-threatening. The nice thing about down is the compressibility, as you mentioned, but more importantly, IMHO, is its longevity. A down bag will last a very long time. I'm not aware of the situation with some of the newer synthetics, but down can last decades. So it's a great value although more expensive initially. Rob Gendreau Oakland, California gendreau_at_ccnet.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/24/99 8:15:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, boydwe_at_dmci.net writes: << I recently decided that I needed to break down and get a new sleeping bag for kayaking; the old one I backpacked and car camped with for years has seen too many better days. <major snip> The issue is nicely balanced in my own mind, but does anyone else have any ideas? >> Take a look at Wiggy's stuff before you decide. He works out of Colorado, builds and sells excellent bags, and puts out one of the wildest newsletters imaginable. Ed Gillet uses and sells them --- my intro to them was on a trip with Ed --- and my longest use, a two week whitewater trip in northwest Canada and Alaska, was totally uneventful in a mid-weight bag. They get wet --- they stay warm. Wiggy can explain why --- and he <will>! Standard stuff --- no affiliation, happy user of products. See him at his web site, <www.wiggys.com>. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Wes Boyd wrote - "On the other hand, a high-end bag out of something like Quallofill will stay warm to some degree if it gets wet, and will dry more easily than down, but a Quallofill bag will take a huge drybag, and that drybag will be a bear in a small hatch. The issue is nicely balanced in my own mind, but does anyone else have any ideas?" If you enjoy paddling year round like I do, you may consider purchasing 2 bags. A medium weight bag as well as a lighter "overbag". I find the mid weight bag is suitable for most of the year, the "overbag" used by itself is perfect for summer and the two together make a good winter combination. Having two smaller bags is also easier to pack into your kayak than one large one. I find my light thinsulate overbag fits easily into a 5 litre dry bag and my mid-weight synthetic bag into a long 15 litre bag. I think down is the best insulation you can buy for most environments, but the marine environment is not one of them. I choose synthetic insulations for my paddling bags because of the warmth they provide when wet. I have never had my bag get wet on a trip but their is a first time for everything. In a first aid scenario in which I was the "victim" I was covered with a sleeping bag to prevent shock and hypothermia while laying on the beach in the rain with the tide coming in with a "broken leg". I was amazed at how quickly I warmed up under the bag even as it got soaked in the rain. The person who owned the bag slept in it for the next 5 nights and it kept her warm, that would not have been the case if she had a down filled bag. Andrew Jones _______________________________________________ Kingfisher Wilderness Adventures Ltd. Suite 211 - 1641 Lonsdale Ave. North Vancouver, BC, Canada V7M 2J5 Ph. 604-831-6180 e-mail: kingfshr_at_idmail.com www.kingfisher-adventures.com ________________________________________________ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Kingfisher Wilderness Adventures Ltd wrote: > when wet. I have never had my bag get wet on a trip but their is a > first time for everything. In a first aid scenario in which I was the > "victim" I was covered with a sleeping bag to prevent shock and > hypothermia while laying on the beach in the rain with the tide coming > in with a "broken leg". <SNIPPED> I read this post a bit too quickly without seeing the "scenario" and thought to myself "Boy, was this guy having a bad day!" :-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Wes- You're right that the synthetic bags are bigger than down, but after stuffing it into a stuff sack, I then use compression end caps to really squash it up tight. At that point, it easily slides down into the bottom of a 20 dry bag. Debbie Reeves Sandy Hook, NJ > ---------- > From: Wes Boyd[SMTP:boydwe_at_dmci.net] > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:05 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: [Paddlewise] Sleeping bags for kayaking > > OK, gearheads, here's something else to jabber about: > > I recently decided that I needed to break down and get a new sleeping > bag for kayaking; the old one I backpacked and car camped with for > years has seen too many better days. > > I'm undecided over whether to get a high-end synthetic bag, or a down > bag. I know down goes away and hides when it gets wet, but it packs so > much tighter than synthetic that it should be able to live in a drybag > that will still go down the hatch of the boat. > > On the other hand, a high-end bag out of something like Quallofill will > stay warm to some degree if it gets wet, and will dry more easily than > down, but a Quallofill bag will take a huge drybag, and that drybag will > be a bear in a small hatch. > > The issue is nicely balanced in my own mind, but does anyone else have > any ideas? > > -- Wes Boyd > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Debbie wrote: > Wes- > You're right that the synthetic bags are bigger than down, but after > stuffing it into a stuff sack, I then use compression end caps to really > squash it up tight. At that point, it easily slides down into the bottom of > a 20 dry bag. ...and Sandy wrote before that: > > I'm undecided over whether to get a high-end synthetic bag, or a down > > bag. I know down goes away and hides when it gets wet, but it packs so > > much tighter than synthetic that it should be able to live in a drybag > > that will still go down the hatch of the boat. Bought a Norwegian Agungilak (synthetic - hope I wrote the name correctly...) sleeping bag for this autumn. Should be trustworthy down to -20 degrees Centigrades, in emergencies even - 30 degrees. At the shop I was told that down bags were not worth of taking to the sea. Too much humidity, so the bag does not keep the warmth inside: down bags are recommended to be used inlands. Yup. My only problem is that I can not find places here to test the bags ability to resist cold in temps so low as described above ;-) Maybe should go skiing and camping to local islands...at least the Eastern part of Finnish Gulf has 10 inches of ice... Cheers, Ari *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ari wrote: > > Bought a Norwegian Agungilak (synthetic - hope I wrote the name correctly...) > ... Should be trustworthy down to -20 degrees > Centigrades, in emergencies even - 30 degrees. ...<snip>... Hmmm. That's not definitely a Norwegian word. (Nei, det er det ikke.) It sounds like it might be Greenlandic, which I suppose is appropriate given its temperature rating. It probably contains genuine Inuit Polarguard 3D, which is easily the best synthetic fill for sleeping bags. (Stay away from LiteLoft, or "LostLoft" as I call it.) I use a synthetic bag for paddling and a down bag for backpacking. Synthetics are much more expensive than high-quality down due to the fact that they are "disposable". They don't last very long. I have a down bag that is 20 years old and is as good as new. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Something to take into account in SE Alaska besides temperature is water. With all of the rain that we get sooner or later ALL of your gear is wet to one degree or another on just about any trip longer than a couple of days. Southeast Alaska is a temperate rain forest and although one can get lucky (very) and have a trip filled with clear skies it's usually more prudent to count on rain and plan for everything to get soaked. The temps here in the summer time are usually quite moderate; lows in the high 40's to 50's and daily highs rarely reaching above 70F - a nice light to mid weight synthetic bag does the trick for me. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert C. Cline [mailto:rcline_at_onramp.net] > Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 6:47 PM > To: Blankibr_at_aol.com; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sleeping bags for kayaking > > > How about summertime Southeast Alaska? > > >Depending on where you live and how cold you are talking > about, you can get a > >synthetic bag that will compress quite small. I use a > compression sack on a > >tall, thin stuff sack and can really get that baby small. > > ************************************************************** > ************* > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************** > ************* > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I've been using down bags for the last quarter of a century and have never got the interior of one wet. My first bag, which was second hand when I bought it, is still going strong. Great value for the money. My second bag, which I purchased about five years ago, has a Goretex shell and Goretex stuff sac, so I no longer have to worry about a light shower or heavy dew if I have not bothered to set a tent, and have no worries in the event of tent failure (and off topic, it is a heck of a lot easier to use for a quick warm-up during breaks while skiing). As far as accumulation of dampness over several days goes, in my area (northern Ontario) it is seldom humid and seldom rains or drizzles without surcease for more than a few days, so airing out is not a problem. If it is not raining, I just unzip and invert the bag and take the roof off the tent prior to breakfast, and by the time I have eaten, the bag is aired out. For the last decade I have used dry bags, and have never had a problem, for when a bag becomes worn enough that pinholes might occur, I retire the bag. I've never had a bag tear open. My sleeping bag always gets packed in my newest dry bag. (For canoeing I simply use barrel packs, which eliminate the need for dry bags.) I expect, however, that I am in the minority in my preference for down. Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard Culpeper wrote: > > I've been using down bags for the last quarter of a century and have never > got the interior of one wet. <snip> > I expect, however, that I am in the minority in my preference for down. > Don't know about preferences, but I'm sure you are in the minority as far as water management goes. Never had a dry bag leak. Never had a tent leak. Never got surprised by a shower. My hat's off to you, Richard. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I expect, however, that I am in the minority in my preference for down. ------------ My down sleeping bag is only rated to 20F (I also have a holofill(?) for down to -20F). I really don't expect to be out with it often below 40-50. I made a conscious decision for down because of it's weight and compression for backpacking also. I decided I could/would take the extra precautions to protect it by inserting a garbage bag inside the tote bag and carrying both in a dry bag for touring. I'll admit I hadn't thought of continuous, extremely high humidity/rain over a period of days when the bag was exposed. My bag has some kind of nylon shell which I <think> will repel most moisture short of leaving it out in the rain or dunking it. I have been somewhat clammy in the bag because of moisture accumulating on the surface but don't think anything penetrated the shell. I think any type of shell would have had the same problem. I've bought a cotton liner to minimize (I hope) the clammy problem but haven't tried it yet. I guess I'm going to have to step in something before I truly belive it stinks. Someone mentioned fitting a bag into hatch without too much trouble. Smaller hatches might be a problem for some bags that don't compress that well. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: Richard Culpeper <culpeper_at_geocities.com> >I've been using down bags for the last quarter of a century and have never >got the interior of one wet [snip] >I expect, however, that I am in the minority in my preference for down. I use my down bag for canoe trips & winter camping. I love it but tell people to get a bag with synthetic fill unless they are sure they can keep it dry. ------------- Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Down is great but it does have to be babied around marine environments and damp shoreside camping. I think one can protect the down in dry bags but you must make certain the dry bag is the best available, i.e. the heaviest nylon possible, no vinyl that can easily develop pinholes. The trouble is the damp athmosphere associated with kayak camping. Unless it is a short duration, you are never going to get a chance to get the down dry from usage and the resultihg moisture from your body and the shore environment. You won't have much of chance to dry while underway the way you might while backpacking where in the middle of the day you might have some sun to dry the bag while having lunch. Why take a chance? Some of the synthetics have come down so much in compressability that the difference between them and down is slight and the weight difference also is not so bad. The big difference is in durability. 20 year old down and even older can keep going strong. The synthetics are good for somewhat less than that. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Synthetic bags last longer if stored hanging free, unpacked. Depends if one has an extra wardrobe for the sleeping bag... Cheers, Ari Saarto "Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]" Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Although I prefer the synthetic materials there is one key to camping pleasure. Keep your sleeping bag dry. I use a one of the OR dry bags and then a double plastic bag over that. The bag stays in the tent and the the tent has a fly. If I have to take the tent down and the fly is wet it goes its own plastic bag. I probably use too many garbage bags on a trip but I am out there to have fun and enjoy myself and the key is a dry sleeping bag and dry clothes. Hal Wilton, NH Power your boat with carbohydrates, not hydrocarbons. http://www.jlc.net/~hlevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>How about summertime Southeast Alaska? I would definitely suggest a synthetic. There are several different ways that a bag can get wet. The bag is susceptable to getting wet at other times other than when you're paddling. Scenario: you have a dry bag, a dry tent, cold weather, cold ground. You fall asleep, but by breathing you create lots o' condensation on the inside of your tent AND your sleeping bag. Synthetic will keep you warm even if it is wet, and will dry out quicker. Down will not keep you warm, and will dry out when it's good 'n ready -- which will certainly be after you need it the most. Another Scenario: You're not paying attention to tides, and don't camp high enough... you wake up floating in water. I don't know about you, but if that ever happened, I would want a synthetic. You'll still be wet, but you'd be warm. Scenario 3: your dry bag leaks, or you've accidentally punctured it in a bizarre cooking incident. You don't have a replacement so you'll have to make do. You find out that the plastic bag you have inside the compression sack leaked. Apparently you've had some unfortunate mishaps, but... fortunately your bag is synthetic. California or Baja in Summer, I think down might be a viable option. Alaska in summer... there is still ice all around you. Wet, wet, wet. Although, I believe that Marmot now makes a down bag that has a gore-tex type cover. Water just does not get through it. This would be the only down bag I would take on any Pacific NW trip if I had the budget. About compression... I have a thermolite 15F, I can get it down to the size of a Costco Red Vines container. It doubles as a slightly large football on some occasions. Polarguard(R) 3D is also made to compress even more, with less weight. If you do decide on a down bag, then I would suggest investing in a bivy sack as well. It will help keep the bag dry even if there is heavy condensation in the tent. A side note: NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) requires a synthetic bag for all students on Pacific NW, and B.C. Sea Kayaking courses. There, that's more than my 2 cents worth. Hope it's helpful. Shoni -The only thief of dreams is Fear. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>At 08:19 AM 1/25/99 -0900, you wrote: >>Something to take into account in SE Alaska besides temperature is >>water. With all of the rain that we get sooner or later ALL of your >>gear is wet to one degree or another on just about any trip longer than >>a couple of days. Southeast Alaska is a temperate rain forest and >>although one can get lucky (very) and have a trip filled with clear >>skies it's usually more prudent to count on rain and plan for everything >>to get soaked. The temps here in the summer time are usually quite >>moderate; lows in the high 40's to 50's and daily highs rarely reaching >>above 70F - a nice light to mid weight synthetic bag does the trick for >>me. >> >>Dave Seng >>Juneau, Alaska >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Robert C. Cline [mailto:rcline_at_onramp.net] >>> >>> How about summertime Southeast Alaska? > Hi Robert, Dave and other Paddlewisers, If I hadn't experienced it for myself, I wouldn't truly understand what Dave has said, but oh boy is it true. In the southeast Alaska climate, after a few days camping and moving in constant rain, drizzle, and cool damp air, everything you use, open or put away is wet to some degree. Trying to sleep in a damp down-filled bag would almost certainly be a miserable experience. Sleeping wet in a synthetic bag is easily doable, in fact downright comfortable (womblike?) once you accept just being wet but warm. I now also understand why NOLS takes a hard line on NO cotton or other moisture-retaining clothing or bags. I also use the double sleeping bag approach. I got a Slumberjack synthetic two-bag combo from Campmor. The light, outer bag works fine for me in cool weather, the thicker, inner bag in cold weather, and I haven't yet needed to use both at the same time. Each bag can be packed separately and squeezed with compression straps to fit through fairly small hatches. Now I use my down-filled bag only well away from the marine environment, for backpacking, and also unzipped and opened up as a comforter for indoor wintertime sleeping. One other note, in southeast Alaska, the air and water temps can be dramatically colder near the glaciers, so if you plan to overnite in their vicinity be prepared. Better yet, go with someone with local experience and heed their advice. See you on the water! John Somers *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I switched to using a down bag late last spring, and have been happy so far. Dave Kruger's point about the frequency of soaking, esp. the hazards of camp, is good, but was outweighed for me by the fact that I got a tiny down Moonstone bag used for a ludicrously low price. It is a convertable which has a thin normal mummy with an extra down blanket that snaps in to give a heavier layer on top. I think the comfort ratings are something like 45 degrees v. 35 with the blanket, maybe a bit higher. Did several trips last summer without the blanket and was fine (Seattle/ Vancouver Island area). I LOVE packing this bag! Without the blanket, it takes HALF the volume of a "small" drybag. It looks like a rubberized package of 2 BigMacs and 2 medium fries. It is no bigger than my head (and not quite as soft)! I should really try an immersion test, but haven't yet. I love to bring junk in my boat, and this thing opens up a whole new world of over-packing. On a three night trip to Barkley Sound, one of our party repeatedly said "if only we had...," to which I replied "I have one (or two or 50 feet)." This was the highlight of the first 2 days of the trip, which might suggest how much it rained... On my first camping trip in a few years, I went car camping by Willapa Bay in September and FORGOT my sleeping bag. The low temp was probably about 50, and plenty of people sleep in their clothes on the streets in worse, without tent or thermarest, so I kept my mouth shut and put on all my layers. It wasn't great, but I got a fair amount of sleep. The sea may not be forgiving, but the marine climate can be. Mike Wagenbach *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 22:59 24-01-99 -0800, Andrew Jones wrote: > >If you enjoy paddling year round like I do, you may consider purchasing 2 bags. A medium weight bag as well as a lighter "overbag". I find the mid weight bag is suitable for most of the year, the "overbag" used by itself is perfect for summer and the two together make a good winter combination. > >Having two smaller bags is also easier to pack into your kayak than one large one. I find my light thinsulate overbag fits easily into a 5 litre dry bag and my mid-weight synthetic bag into a long 15 litre bag. > this is how colorado outward bound did their winter mountaineering course, used two bags. one of down, one of qualofill [in 1980 anyhow ;-]!! this gets you the best of both worlds. personally, all my bags are either hollowfill or qualofill, and the 30oF qualofill packs really small. i get it into a dry bag, and it fits between my footpegs and forward bulkhead. mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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