I need some help here and please correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong. Dry suit, Wet suit, I am not sure what I want. Here in Ohio paddling time is to short. So to extend the season, I want to get a dry suit or a wet suit. What (I think) I know: Dry suits keep you dry and with clothes underneath warm Wet suits let you get wet and warm Dry suit will cost more Either can be used for SCUBA diving and paddling For extreme cold and/or extended cold a dry suit will keep you warmer longer I am leaning toward a dry suit. Questions What materials should they be made of? Where to get one? How much is it going to cost me? How long will they last if treated well? How long will they last if treated poorly? Is one company better than any other? What else do i need to know? Thanks for the info. in advance. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free _at_yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Darian wrote: > I need some help here and please correct me if any of my assumptions > are wrong. > Dry suit, Wet suit, I am not sure what I want. > Here in Ohio paddling time is to short. So to extend the season, I > want to get a dry suit or a wet suit. > What (I think) I know: > Dry suits keep you dry and with clothes underneath warm > Wet suits let you get wet and warm > Dry suit will cost more > Either can be used for SCUBA diving and paddling > For extreme cold and/or extended cold a dry suit will keep you warmer > longer > > I am leaning toward a dry suit. > > Questions > What materials should they be made of? > Where to get one? > How much is it going to cost me? > How long will they last if treated well? > How long will they last if treated poorly? > Is one company better than any other? > What else do i need to know? Lots of questions. Dry suits do keep you dry and the warmth is derived from the layers of insulating clothing that you wear beneath it. Wet suits let the nasty cold water in and then your body has to warm it up - this works well as long as water is not being flushed through the suit. Swimming in a farmer jon can move a lot of water through the suit. Diving dry suits are quite different than paddling dry suits - I'm not a diver, but from what I've seen they are much heavier and stiffer and can't be put on without assistance (zipper in back), I think it would be very uncomfortable to paddle in one of these.. My personal choice when the weather and waters start getting chilly is for the dry suit. Yes, it does cost more (sometimes a LOT more) but I know that I can comfortably (well, almost<g>) take a swim in in 36F (2C) water in my drysuit and recover back into the kayak and keep on paddling in sub freezing temperatures. It wouldn't be so comfortable in a wet suit. There are some variations on the classic neoprene wet suit, but I can't comment on them, never having used them. Maybe some of the others who do use them will comment. For my money the best material for a dry suit is GoreTex. Sure, it's not really the material, but rather the waterproofing method. I tend to sweat a lot - being sealed up in a urethane coated drysuit can get pretty soggy for me. The GoreTex suit really does help with this problem, but you do pay a premium. The most fragile thing on a dry suit are the neoprene gaskets at the neck, wrists, and sometimes ankles. These should be treated regularly with a product called "303", available from most paddle shops or buy it on the web from a retailer like REI or some of the smaller shops that have web presences. At least one dry suit manufacturer, Kokatat, offers either latex or neoprene booties as an option - a nice improvement, IMO, over latex ankle gaskets. Warm, dry toes are hard to beat! As to how long they will last - we had a thread about this subject a few months ago. I think that it really depends on how often you use it, the conditions (do you spend much time sitting on rocky shorelines?), etc. My Kokatat GoreTex gets a good workout during the course of the year and is 4 or 5 years old and still going strong. I rinse it off with freshwater after each trip and use the 303 freely. Gaskets can easily be replaced, but having one blow out on a trip would be inconvenient. Duct tape is a good field-expedient gasket replacement, but painful at removal time. I'll give Kokatat a plug - I have no commercial or other interest in the company, but I think they make a great product - check out their web site at www.kokatat.com. Hope that this helps answer some of your questions. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Forgot to mention my feelings on that-I wore mine today with lightweight poly underneath and it worked out fine-50 deg air temp [dunno about the water] and I didn't get soggy. I agree with David in that I believe I should have paid the extra $$ for Gore-tex... As it is, when it gets warmer I shift to the ol' dry top and farmer johns-the farmer johns are from a DIVE shop and are I think 7mm for the same price I've seen 3mm at kayak shops sold for... Take care, Tom... >For my money the best material for a dry suit is GoreTex. Sure, it's >not really the material, but rather the waterproofing method. I tend to >sweat a lot - being sealed up in a urethane coated drysuit can get >pretty soggy for me. The GoreTex suit really does help with this >problem, but you do pay a premium. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Darian Dunn wrote: > > Dry suit, Wet suit, I am not sure what I want.[snip] > Questions > What materials should they be made of? > Where to get one? > How much is it going to cost me? > How long will they last if treated well? > How long will they last if treated poorly? > Is one company better than any other? > What else do i need to know? David Seng covered the bases pretty well in his post. I'll just fill in a couple gaps. I use a Farmer John (actually a Farmer Grizzly, I guess -- I need the volume) bottom (3 mm) and a Kokatat Goretex top with neoprene closure at the neck and latex cuffs at the wrists. This combo is sort of a middle of the road approach, and provides some flexibility a complete dry suit does not. In a thrashing in the surf, the neoprene neck will leak. But, I very rarely surf, and being able to keep the closure open while paddling hard (and closing it when I get to gnarly water) makes it possible to wear immersion protection when the air temp is high and the water temp is low. The combo is too warm for water temps in the summer, so I remove the dry top. In the winter, I can adjust to the cooler water temp by adding layers under the dry top. Works for me, but this arrangement (the FJ is 3 mm) would not give me many hours of functional time in 40 F water -- it will, however, give me a LOT of time to re-enter my boat. In 45 F water, my hands still work after 45 minutes. In 50 F water, they work for at least an hour and a half. In 60 F water, I'm too hot! Cost: decent FJ is about $100. Kokatat's dry top is about $180, last time I checked. If you elect the version with latex at the neck, and about $50, I think. I also have no affiliation with Kokatat, but have been very satisfied with their products, and extremely pleased at their customer service. They really stand behind their stuff (they replaced a dry top which failed after 3 seasons of regular use **for the cost of the seals only!**). How long will this stuff last if treated well? The FJ should last many years, unless you like to slide across barnacle-encrusted rocks. The Goretex will keep you "dry" for many years, if you do not abuse it. It will lose a good bit of its ability to "breath" in a couple seasons of ordinary use, although some of the treatments available will "restore" the DWR coating, for varying lengths of time, and maintain a high level of breathability. Mileage varys **a lot** here, with some folks claiming near-100% performance for years (I think those folks never get near mud or tidepool slime!), and others feeling the Goretex is trashed in a season. There has been speculation here and on r.b.p. that some folks exude trashy body oils which accelerate the deterioration of the Goretex. Could be. How would we ever know for sure? My bottom line is that the Goretex ensures that you **will** be able to wear that layer over a broader range of conditions that serious coated nylon dry tops, and hence, is functionally safer. Others disagree, and do not feel Goretex is "worth it." YMMV BTW, Hank Hays has a couple nice pieces about care and feeding of Goretex on his business's Web site (http://www.paddles.com/index.html). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
To add one thing to what the Daves --- Seng and Kruger --- have said: whatever you decide on, and especially if you're new to cold weather kayaking, make sure the system you buy for cold water actually works in your worst case scenario before you take it out kayaking. Do some wet exits, reentries, paddlefloat recoveries, and swim the suit with an experienced paddler as a spotter with you in the water and dry clothes and a warmed recovery site --- even a warm car --- immediately available. Spend at least ten minutes --- and 20 to 30 is better --- swimming the suit or gear to make sure you're safe. If you choose neoprene, don't expect to be warm; it's survival you're after, not comfort. Re the Gore-Tex Kokatat suits --- they're the best bet by far. And the new neoprene booties are fantastic! Keep the seals in good shape with "303" and you have a long term investment. Should anything go wrong, Kokatat stands behind their products completely. One thing you didn't ask --- and haven't received a response that I've seen --- is what to do for your head and hands. In my opinion, the best head and neck protection --- areas where you'll lose something like 75% or more of your body heat when exposed in a cold water swim --- is a full head and neck hood made of one of the Malden Mills Thermal Stretch or Rubberized Thermal Stretch materials --- and, for a hood, I'd opt for the latter although I have had no problems with the regular Thermal Stretch. Either is a lot better than neoprene 'cause you can hear through it, it's warm and comfortable when dry, and really does give adequate protection during a swim, a wet exit, reentry or roll. And you need to have it on when you're doing cold water stuff, so dry comfort is important. (Some folks feel they will be able to pull hoods on if they get knocked down in a cold scenario; maybe, and maybe not. It's not a risk I'd take. The cold shock of a sudden swim could easily incapacitate you before you can recover your gear.) And you didn't ask about gloves. There, neoprene seems best by far. And expensive isn't always best. The absolute best neoprene gloves I've ever used were $8.95 at WalMart --- dunno, "Ozark" something-or-other. I have bad circulation in my right index finger, in particular, and these gloves keep my hands functional. (You'll hear advocates of the "in contact with the paddle" school advocate the use of pogies, and they're right --- it's important to keep a good feel of the paddle. For me, my hands would be useless without the thermal protection of gloves --- paddle sensitivity notwithstanding --- and I'm not sure how the pogie-paddlers would fare in a protracted in-water experience.) For what it's worth. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Wrote: > And you didn't ask about gloves. There, neoprene seems best by > far. And expensive isn't always best. The absolute best neoprene > gloves I've ever used were $8.95 at WalMart --- dunno, "Ozark" > something-or-other. Jack, are these neoprene gloves faced on only one side? I bought a pair of "fishing" neoprene gloves from Wal-Mart. The faced side was on the outside except for the palm where the bare side was out. They worked ok when I was using an aluminum shaft paddle, but when I switched to a wood paddle the unfaced palm of my gloves quickly chewed up. In the first 2 outings I had with the wood (Greenland) paddle I wore through to the nylon on the inside in several places. These gloves also had large interior seams (a bit uncomfortable) and leaked like a sieve. They stayed warm except when facing a strong wind. For a short while I used these gloves inside of a pair of large pogies and this was the best of both worlds. My hands would actually get too hot at times! I just bought a more expensive pair of gloves. Not neoprene and not near as warm. The pogies come out in warmer weather to compensate. They don't leak as bad. I saw a pair of precurved neoprene gloves that looked very comfortable and were water tight, but I was afraid to buy them with just unfaced neoprene on the outside. If anyone else has a good - durable - cold water paddling glove they recommend, I'd like to hear! Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Robert Woodard" <woodardr_at_tidalwave.net> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] What to wear wet suit, dry suit Date sent: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:27:31 -0500 > Jack, are these neoprene gloves faced on only one side? I bought a pair of > "fishing" neoprene gloves from Wal-Mart. The faced side was on the outside > except for the palm where the bare side was out. Can't tell, Woody. The two pairs I have are both from Wal-Mart, made in Thailand, and are made of what looks to me to be two mm, double faced neoprene, with an added "sharkskin" rubber facing on the palms and inside of fingers. My guess is that these are the same gloves. About $8.95. My luck with them is a lot better than yours, I guess. I use a Greenland stick, and they show no wear after a year or so of winter paddling. Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>The two pairs I have are both from Wal-Mart, > made in Thailand, and are made of what looks to me to be two > mm, double faced neoprene, with an added "sharkskin" rubber Thanks Jack. That is what I need to find...the double faced neoprene. The gloves I had were single faced, with the nylon towards the outside except in the palm and underside of the fingers where the nylon was on the inside (bare neoprene against my paddle). Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I disagree that one cannot be warm in neoprene. Sid Taylor -----Original Message----- From: Jack Martin <jcmartin43_at_radix.net> To: Darian Dunn <dunnd1_at_yahoo.com>; Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> Cc: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 5:58 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] What to wear wet suit, dry suit To add one thing to what the Daves --- Seng and Kruger --- have said: whatever you decide on, and especially if you're new to cold weather kayaking, make sure the system you buy for cold water actually works in your worst case scenario before you take it out kayaking. Do some wet exits, reentries, paddlefloat recoveries, and swim the suit with an experienced paddler as a spotter with you in the water and dry clothes and a warmed recovery site --- even a warm car --- immediately available. Spend at least ten minutes --- and 20 to 30 is better --- swimming the suit or gear to make sure you're safe. If you choose neoprene, don't expect to be warm; it's survival you're after, not comfort. Re the Gore-Tex Kokatat suits --- they're the best bet by far. And the new neoprene booties are fantastic! Keep the seals in good shape with "303" and you have a long term investment. Should anything go wrong, Kokatat stands behind their products completely. One thing you didn't ask --- and haven't received a response that I've seen --- is what to do for your head and hands. In my opinion, the best head and neck protection --- areas where you'll lose something like 75% or more of your body heat when exposed in a cold water swim --- is a full head and neck hood made of one of the Malden Mills Thermal Stretch or Rubberized Thermal Stretch materials --- and, for a hood, I'd opt for the latter although I have had no problems with the regular Thermal Stretch. Either is a lot better than neoprene 'cause you can hear through it, it's warm and comfortable when dry, and really does give adequate protection during a swim, a wet exit, reentry or roll. And you need to have it on when you're doing cold water stuff, so dry comfort is important. (Some folks feel they will be able to pull hoods on if they get knocked down in a cold scenario; maybe, and maybe not. It's not a risk I'd take. The cold shock of a sudden swim could easily incapacitate you before you can recover your gear.) And you didn't ask about gloves. There, neoprene seems best by far. And expensive isn't always best. The absolute best neoprene gloves I've ever used were $8.95 at WalMart --- dunno, "Ozark" something-or-other. I have bad circulation in my right index finger, in particular, and these gloves keep my hands functional. (You'll hear advocates of the "in contact with the paddle" school advocate the use of pogies, and they're right --- it's important to keep a good feel of the paddle. For me, my hands would be useless without the thermal protection of gloves --- paddle sensitivity notwithstanding --- and I'm not sure how the pogie-paddlers would fare in a protracted in-water experience.) For what it's worth. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Sid Taylor" <tayls_at_snowcrest.net> To: "Jack Martin" <jcmartin43_at_radix.net>, "Darian Dunn" <dunnd1_at_yahoo.com>, "Dave Kruger" <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> Copies to: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] What to wear wet suit, dry suit Date sent: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:58:19 -0800 > > I disagree that one cannot be warm in neoprene. I'm sure one could be warm in neoprene when in warm water, Sid, but in 41 degree F. water in the Chesapeake Bay I know <I> wouldn't be warm; I'd stay functional if I had protection for my head and hands, but I'd never be warm. You must be one of those "young" 40-something people! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Darian Dunn wrote: > I need some help here and please correct me if any of my assumptions > are wrong. > [...] > Either can be used for SCUBA diving and paddling If you take a good look at SCUBA drysuits you'll find they're a bit different than paddling drysuits. Diving drysuits have a couple of fiddly bits on them that you won't see in paddling gear. One is an inflator coupling on the chest. You use a drysuit for bouyancy control instead of a bouyancy compensator (the BC is worn as a backup and tank harness - note that there are those that disagree with the use of drysuits as BCs). The other is an air relief valve to bleed air from the suit on ascent. I looked at getting a dual purpose dry suit, but didn't want the inflator coupling being driven into my chest when paddling. I also didn't want to pay to repair the air relief valve if I broke it in whitewater. So I didn't get the SCUBA suit. (I also wanted Gore-Tex for paddling which isn't available for diving.) Comments made by others about the weight etc of SCUBA dry suits are appropriate as well. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I opted for wet suits first, then covered them with anything I could find when the wind came up. But if you have ever tried to peel on a wet wet suit on day two (uncomfortable) or day three (starting to chafe) or day four (you look at the thing with dread and trepidation, you might opt for the dry suit. You can make them more comfortable with fleece underneath and when you are out of the water, a little wind won't send your teeth chattering so hard you have to go to the dentist. I got my son out this weekend for the first time and outfitted him in a fleece/dry suit combo. He swam a lot (unintentionally) but was quite comfortable. Dry suits also dry faster and don't cause as much dread when you go to put them on the next day. The big factor for my son wasn't brand or fabric but fit. Find something you are comfortable in. JMHO FWIW. Alice > I need some help here and please correct me if any of my assumptions > are wrong. > Dry suit, Wet suit, I am not sure what I want. > Here in Ohio paddling time is to short. So to extend the season, I > want to get a dry suit or a wet suit. > What (I think) I know: > Dry suits keep you dry and with clothes underneath warm > Wet suits let you get wet and warm > Dry suit will cost more > Either can be used for SCUBA diving and paddling > For extreme cold and/or extended cold a dry suit will keep you warmer > longer > > I am leaning toward a dry suit. > > Questions > What materials should they be made of? > Where to get one? > How much is it going to cost me? > How long will they last if treated well? > How long will they last if treated poorly? > Is one company better than any other? > What else do i need to know? > > Thanks for the info. in advance. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Having been a dry suit diver for many years, I cannot imagine trying to paddle a kayak in one. Barbara *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I'll start by stating that I'm unfamiliar with diving drysuits, though I used one 25 plus years ago.... The paddler's drysuit is, I think, a different animal. No head or hand covering per se, though I use latex booties. I suspect that if I were to go more than a few feet below the surface I would get significant leakage through the neck and wrist gaskets. My guess is that it's more lightly constructed and I for one have no problems wearing one all day. JP >Having been a dry suit diver for many years, I cannot imagine trying to paddle >a kayak in one. >Barbara *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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