The question of PFD "fit" has recently been introduced. Here is a consideration. PFDs provide flotation only when they raise the center of mass of the paddler. Extreme example: A large balloon on a long string attached to a paddles helmet provides no useful buoyancy although the Coast Guard may have rated such a device with large figures. Many paddles wear PFDs that ride up off their shoulders and even up to the ears. The buoyancy of such devices is compromised. Children's PFDs all have crotch straps to prevent just such an occurrence. Our PFDs all do too. The use of a crotch strap requires wearing spray skirts over our PFDs, not under them, but the added flotation is obvious in our self-rescue practice. The PFDs stay in place and add the full measure of buoyancy. So an alternative to ever shorter and less adequate flotation might be securing one's PFD firmly down on the shoulders with a crotch strap. PFDs fit in this way also remain snugly around the torso and provide better insullation/hypothermia protection than ones that are loose floating upwards. BTW we use the form fitting segmented SEDAs, extensively modified with pockets for extras -- matches, flashlight, water containers, radio -- and extra flotation options. These are so comfortable they are worn often for continued periods after landing. Happy paddling. -- Richard G. Mitchell, Jr. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think we are going to get everyone to run out and replace their spray skirts and PFDs right away, but why not a simple strap that will be worn under the spray skirt and will attach to the PFD to hold it in position? I will try some experiments as soon as I get the chance. One concern in the USA is that any modifications to a PFD void the Coast Guard approval. One way around this would be an attachment that does not change the PFD at all but only wraps through an opening of the PFD, like arm/neck opening, i.e. around the shoulder strap. Something to think about. BTW I am in full agreement about the value of the croch strap. When wearing a nylon spray skirt the PFD slides very easily, over a neoprene skirt it is not so much of a problem. michael mitchelr_at_ucs.orst.edu wrote: > Many paddles wear PFDs that ride up off their shoulders and even > up to the ears. The buoyancy of such devices is compromised. > Children's PFDs all have crotch straps to prevent just such an > occurrence. Our PFDs all do too. The use of a crotch strap > requires wearing spray skirts over our PFDs, not under them, but > the added flotation is obvious in our self-rescue practice. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Neverdosky wrote: > > I don't think we are going to get everyone to run out and > replace their spray skirts and PFDs right away, but why not > a simple strap that will be worn under the spray skirt and > will attach to the PFD to hold it in position? > > I will try some experiments as soon as I get the chance. > > One concern in the USA is that any modifications to a PFD > void the Coast Guard approval. > One way around this would be an attachment that does not change > the PFD at all but only wraps through an opening of the PFD, like > arm/neck opening, i.e. around the shoulder strap. > > Something to think about. > > BTW I am in full agreement about the value of the croch strap. > When wearing a nylon spray skirt the PFD slides very easily, > over a neoprene skirt it is not so much of a problem. I think I would have a bit of a problem inhaling having the skirt on top of my pfd- it doesn't seem to ride up that much with the double waist strap system of my Lotus anyway. Would a couple of well placed bits of velcro on the inside of the pfd attatching to the sprayskirt work? gabriel > > michael > -- gabriel l romeu http://members.aol.com/romeug studio furniture http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Neverdosky wrote: > One concern in the USA is that any modifications to a PFD > void the Coast Guard approval. > One way around this would be an attachment that does not change > the PFD at all but only wraps through an opening of the PFD, like > arm/neck opening, i.e. around the shoulder strap. That is true and I would never advise any one to break the law. But the Coast Guard is not going to get concerned as long as you are wearing the darn thing (which is not legally required to be worn except one type). Adding stuff such as reflective tape, a few pockets, pelvic straps, etc. is not likely to effect the performance of the PFD as long as it is the right size for your weight and what you have added. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Date sent: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:15:03 -0800 From: Richard Mitchell <mitchelr_at_ucs.orst.edu> To: "paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net" <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] PFD Fit and function. > > Many paddles wear PFDs that ride up off their shoulders and even > up to the ears. The buoyancy of such devices is compromised. > Children's PFDs all have crotch straps to prevent just such an > occurrence. Sounds like you may not be fitting the PFD to the paddler properly. If a PFD is sized and fitted properly, and if the straps are all cinched down appropriately, a PFD won't ride up when a paddler swims --- and shouldn't ride up even in a jump into the water off a pier or a rock. Crotch straps are fine --- my old CKS Stohlquist "Max" vest had USCG-approved hardpoints for crotch straps --- but they're most practical in an open canoe or on a raft. Would look to a properly sized and rigged PFD before modifying it to offset improper fit. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: > > From: Richard Mitchell <mitchelr_at_ucs.orst.edu> > To: [Paddlewise] PFD Fit and function. > > > Many paddles wear PFDs that ride up off their shoulders and even > > up to the ears. The buoyancy of such devices is compromised. > > Children's PFDs all have crotch straps to prevent just such an > > occurrence. > > Sounds like you may not be fitting the PFD to the paddler properly. > If a PFD is sized and fitted properly, and if the straps are all > cinched down appropriately, a PFD won't ride up when a paddler > swims --- and shouldn't ride up even in a jump into the water off a > pier or a rock. Crotch straps are fine --- my old CKS Stohlquist > "Max" vest had USCG-approved hardpoints for crotch straps --- but > they're most practical in an open canoe or on a raft. Would look to > a properly sized and rigged PFD before modifying it to offset Joq, I think whether a PFD will "lift" you or not depends on whether your chest measurement is larger than your mid-stomach measurement. As a guy who is more like a pear than an Arnold, I think the main effect of cinching down on my PFD straps is to restrict my breathing capacity. I can make it work (not lift off my shoulders), but that requires serious squishing. And, yes, I have tried on a half dozen good makes and models. Hardbody types have the inverted wedge-shaped upper torsos which make "fitting" a PFD a "cinch." For the rest of us, the cinch is a pinch -- and a crotch strap makes a big difference. Not going to even think about the difficulty women of realistic (non-Barbie) proportions have fitting into conventkionally designed PFD's. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR politically correct PFD-wearer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I can remember using a PFD with crotch straps that were attached to the shoulder area. You cinched the straps, pulled the spraydeck up, then zipped the pfd closed. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Martin <jcmartin43_at_radix.net> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Richard Mitchell <mitchelr_at_ucs.orst.edu> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD Fit and function. >Date sent: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:15:03 -0800 >From: Richard Mitchell <mitchelr_at_ucs.orst.edu> >To: "paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net" <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> >Subject: [Paddlewise] PFD Fit and function. > >> >> Many paddles wear PFDs that ride up off their shoulders and even >> up to the ears. The buoyancy of such devices is compromised. >> Children's PFDs all have crotch straps to prevent just such an >> occurrence. > >Sounds like you may not be fitting the PFD to the paddler properly. >If a PFD is sized and fitted properly, and if the straps are all >cinched down appropriately, a PFD won't ride up when a paddler >swims --- and shouldn't ride up even in a jump into the water off a >pier or a rock. Crotch straps are fine --- my old CKS Stohlquist >"Max" vest had USCG-approved hardpoints for crotch straps --- but >they're most practical in an open canoe or on a raft. Would look to >a properly sized and rigged PFD before modifying it to offset >improper fit. > >Jack Martin >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
This is true. I have never been asked to take off a PFD that I was wearing to show that it was approved, during any boarding of the Coast Guard, various harbor police and others. When not wearing PFDs they always ask to see the PFDs. In fact, poeple who look competent, and confident, wearing PFDs are rarely stopped/boarded, in my experience. michael rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Michael Neverdosky wrote: > > > One concern in the USA is that any modifications to a PFD > > void the Coast Guard approval. > > One way around this would be an attachment that does not change > > the PFD at all but only wraps through an opening of the PFD, like > > arm/neck opening, i.e. around the shoulder strap. > > That is true and I would never advise any one to break the law. But the > Coast Guard is not going to get concerned as long as you are wearing the > darn thing (which is not legally required to be worn except one type). > Adding stuff such as reflective tape, a few pockets, pelvic straps, etc. > is not likely to effect the performance of the PFD as long as it is the > right size for your weight and what you have added. > > ralph diaz > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Dave Kruger wrote: > > Sounds like you may not be fitting the PFD to the paddler properly. > > If a PFD is sized and fitted properly, and if the straps are all > > cinched down appropriately, a PFD won't ride up when a paddler > > swims --- and shouldn't ride up even in a jump into the water off a > > pier or a rock. Crotch straps are fine --- my old CKS Stohlquist > > "Max" vest had USCG-approved hardpoints for crotch straps --- but > > they're most practical in an open canoe or on a raft. Would look to > > a properly sized and rigged PFD before modifying it to offset > > Joq, I think whether a PFD will "lift" you or not depends on whether your > chest measurement is larger than your mid-stomach measurement. As a guy > who is more like a pear than an Arnold, I think the main effect of cinching > down on my PFD straps is to restrict my breathing capacity. I can make it > work (not lift off my shoulders), but that requires serious squishing. > And, yes, I have tried on a half dozen good makes and models. > > Hardbody types have the inverted wedge-shaped upper torsos which make > "fitting" a PFD a "cinch." For the rest of us, the cinch is a pinch -- and > a crotch strap makes a big difference. agreed. i am a bit "rotund" as well ;-) and i can cinch the pfd so tight i can't breath, and while paddling a kayak, it _will_ ride up. my pfd for canoeing is longer, and since the bottom tie is lower than my gut, it doesn't ride up. not true with the kayak vest. mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: "In a world without fences, who needs 'Gates'" -- Scott McNealy "In a world without walls, who needs 'Windows'" -- Dave Livigni *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com> Send reply to: canoeist_at_netbox.com Date sent: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:58:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] PFD Fit and function. > > Joq, I think whether a PFD will "lift" you or not depends on whether your > > chest measurement is larger than your mid-stomach measurement. Gee, Mark and Dave, I'm starting to feel really good about myself again! (Not am I not the oldest grey-beard on this list, I may be an "Arnold" by comparison, too! --- Reminds me of that TV ad with a series of guys emoting about having their mothers' thighs and stuff!) Okay, I'll stand corrected about the heartbreak of PFD ride-up. Jack "Joq" Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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