>> What interest me about all these post is , How often do you find yourself in a situation where a hand pump used properly would not work or a buddy could not assist in emptying your kayak of water rather going to all the trouble of buying and mounting a foot pump. >> Before ordering a kayak with a foot pump, I tried to imagine conditions that would cause me to do a wet exit. I reasoned that if I do capsize and wet exit, it is most likely to happen in breaking waves, which means they will be refilling the cockpit about as fast as I can pump it out unless I put the sprayskirt back on. I also imagined trying to brace in such conditions while both hands were on the pump. A foot pump (or an electric pump) made the most sense to me in such conditions. With a foot pump, I can paddle and brace while pumping, while the sealed cockpit that an internal pump makes possible keeps more water from entering. I don't necessarily count on support from a buddy in such a situation, because groups tend to spread out when the weather gets rough. Also, there is the potential hazard of smashed fingers and strained muscles when kayaks raft up in rough water. Putting it another way, I have a foot pump for the same reason I carry emergency flares and strobe and wear a dry suit on cold water: not for anticipated normal kayaking, but for the unanticipated extremes; not as a primary defense, but as a backup for my backups. My preferred defenses are to stay out of trouble in the first place and, if that fails, to be able to recover with a reliable brace, and if that fails, to be able to recover with a reliable roll. Meanwhile, since my spray skirt leaks a little, it's handy during rolling practice to be able to pump out the boat occasionally without having to remove the sprayskirt and unstow and restow a manual pump. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/3/99 11:57:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, CHUCK_at_multitech.com writes: << The Whale Compac 50, which I think is similar to the Henderson Chimp, weighs 2 lb. Add hoses, strum box, and push plate, and I would guess the total to be 3-4 lb. >> Minor qualification, if I may, Chuck: the Whale Compac 50 looks very similar to the Henderson pump which is installed in the foredeck of some Valley and other Brit boats; it has a removable handle, and operates by opening a deckplate in front of the paddler. The Henderson Chimp Mk1 is closer to the Whale Urchin, which weighs a little less --- about a half a pound. You're going to increase your boat fixed weight by at least three pounds in adding a foot pump, and, unless you drop the redundancy of a hand pump --- nominally, one pound --- you're going to be carrying a bit more weight around. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John, I was one of the people who helped start this thread with my "how to use a handpump in rough conditions" message. Some people might take that message to imply that I advocate re-entry methods and hand pumps over foot pumps or other rescues. This isn't my position. I don't use foot pumps, but I'm convinced they are superior to hand pumps. I have pumped out my boat in rough conditions with a hand pump. It works, but it was not easy. In fact, it was dammed hard. I would have loved to have a foot pump. But for now, I'm stuck with hand pumps. I have three different sea kayaks and I can't afford a foot pump in each boat. Furthermore, one of my boats is a folding boat (a Khatsalano) and can't be used with a foot pump. So I by necessity need a hand pump. This need will decrease over time as I install foot pumps in my ocean going sea kayaks, but the need for hand pumps will never completely go away. All of this pump talk is interesting, but I want to emphasize that I have NEVER used a pump in a combat situation. I have "bomb-proof" rolls on both sides. I practice my rolls in pools once and sometimes twice per week. I practice my rolls everytime I paddle in relatively non-polluted water. I enjoy rolling and consider it one of the fun things to do in a kayak. So when it comes to pumps, there is no doubt in my mind that the best strategy with regard to pumps is to never need them. My position is quite clear:: if you paddle a sea kayak, you owe it to yourself to learn and practice bracing and rolling. Unless (1) physical limiations prevent it, (2) your boat is for all practicle purposes un-rollable, or (3) you don't paddle often enough to keep rolling skills up to par; rolling beats every rescue in the book and should be one's primary method for recovering from a capsize. --Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: John C. Winskill [SMTP:johncw_at_narrows.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 6:52 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] FW: Foot pumps > > Dana; > > I actually do find myself paddling in conditions fairly often that could > make paddlefloat and assisted rescues very difficult. [Mattson, Timothy G] ....snip *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Tim; I couldn't agree with you more! John Mattson, Timothy G wrote: > > John, > > I was one of the people who helped start this thread with my "how to use a > handpump in rough conditions" message. Some people might take that message > to imply that I advocate re-entry methods and hand pumps over foot pumps or > other rescues. This isn't my position. > > I don't use foot pumps, but I'm convinced they are superior to hand pumps. > I have pumped out my boat in rough conditions with a hand pump. It works, > but it was not easy. In fact, it was dammed hard. I would have loved to > have a foot pump. But for now, I'm stuck with hand pumps. I have three > different sea kayaks and I can't afford a foot pump in each boat. > Furthermore, one of my boats is a folding boat (a Khatsalano) and can't be > used with a foot pump. So I by necessity need a hand pump. This need will > decrease over time as I install foot pumps in my ocean going sea kayaks, but > the need for hand pumps will never completely go away. > > All of this pump talk is interesting, but I want to emphasize that I have > NEVER used a pump in a combat situation. I have "bomb-proof" rolls on both > sides. I practice my rolls in pools once and sometimes twice per week. I > practice my rolls everytime I paddle in relatively non-polluted water. I > enjoy rolling and consider it one of the fun things to do in a kayak. > > So when it comes to pumps, there is no doubt in my mind that the best > strategy with regard to pumps is to never need them. > > My position is quite clear:: if you paddle a sea kayak, you owe it to > yourself to learn and practice bracing and rolling. Unless (1) physical > limiations prevent it, (2) your boat is for all practicle purposes > un-rollable, or (3) you don't paddle often enough to keep rolling skills up > to par; rolling beats every rescue in the book and should be one's primary > method for recovering from a capsize. > > --Tim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Tim and I appear to be from the same school. I can not agree with him more. I would like to add that a bombproof roll is not the end of the story. There is another issue that the paddler has to fight--extreme exhaustion. Extreme exhaustion might prevent a good paddler from rolling, paddling, even breathing. Depression hits, and a person eventually gives up on everything in life. The only medicine against exhaustion is prevention. Do not just invest your energy in rolling during training sessions; but try to cover a mile or more at full speed. In actual paddles, carry plenty of snacks and water, and do not push yourself to the limit where conditions might have an unexpected change; you need that reserve energy for such a event. - Julio > > John, > > I was one of the people who helped start this thread with my "how to use a > handpump in rough conditions" message. Some people might take that message > to imply that I advocate re-entry methods and hand pumps over foot pumps or > other rescues. This isn't my position. > > I don't use foot pumps, but I'm convinced they are superior to hand pumps. > I have pumped out my boat in rough conditions with a hand pump. It works, > but it was not easy. In fact, it was dammed hard. I would have loved to > have a foot pump. But for now, I'm stuck with hand pumps. I have three > different sea kayaks and I can't afford a foot pump in each boat. > Furthermore, one of my boats is a folding boat (a Khatsalano) and can't be > used with a foot pump. So I by necessity need a hand pump. This need will > decrease over time as I install foot pumps in my ocean going sea kayaks, but > the need for hand pumps will never completely go away. > > All of this pump talk is interesting, but I want to emphasize that I have > NEVER used a pump in a combat situation. I have "bomb-proof" rolls on both > sides. I practice my rolls in pools once and sometimes twice per week. I > practice my rolls everytime I paddle in relatively non-polluted water. I > enjoy rolling and consider it one of the fun things to do in a kayak. > > So when it comes to pumps, there is no doubt in my mind that the best > strategy with regard to pumps is to never need them. > > My position is quite clear:: if you paddle a sea kayak, you owe it to > yourself to learn and practice bracing and rolling. Unless (1) physical > limiations prevent it, (2) your boat is for all practicle purposes > un-rollable, or (3) you don't paddle often enough to keep rolling skills up > to par; rolling beats every rescue in the book and should be one's primary > method for recovering from a capsize. > > --Tim > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John C. Winskill [SMTP:johncw_at_narrows.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 6:52 PM > > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] FW: Foot pumps > > > > Dana; > > > > I actually do find myself paddling in conditions fairly often that could > > make paddlefloat and assisted rescues very difficult. > [Mattson, Timothy G] ....snip > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/3/99 10:09:30 PM EST, johncw_at_narrows.com writes: I live in the Northwest and Agree with Dana. I don't think anyone is putting themselves at risk by carrying a handpump. << Why do people persist in advocating mediocrity? >> ?? Why do people persist in advocating mechanical solutions to a physical skill problem. Tom Cromwell Edmonds WA I am not MAD:) Really! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Tom; I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. John Tomckayak_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/3/99 10:09:30 PM EST, johncw_at_narrows.com writes: > I live in the Northwest and Agree with Dana. I don't think anyone is putting > themselves at risk by carrying a handpump. > > << Why do people persist in advocating > mediocrity? >> > ?? > Why do people persist in advocating mechanical solutions to a physical skill > problem. > > Tom Cromwell > Edmonds WA > > I am not MAD:) Really! > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In all this discussion of relative merits of foot pumps, handheld pumps, deck mounted pumps, I wonder what is the experience of others with battery operated ones. I have not had personal experience with them, but I do know of about half a dozen people who use them on folding kayaks with excellent results. Various brands of submersible ones are available at marine supply stores in the $40 range. If they can pump out a voluminous folding double they can certainly make child's play of skinny boats. The whole issue of emptying out a companion's boat is fairly easy. Transfer it over to the other guy's boat. You don't have to waste time and be in a precarious position while doing it. You don't need to modify your boat. If you feel insecure about the dependability of a battery operated pump, get TWO! The price of two would be way cheaper than buying one of those foot pumps. If both work, you can empty your boat twice as fast. A battery would be consistent in its pumping. Your leg or arm will tire and need to take breaks. Your battery won't. My understanding is that the batteries are good for emptying a folding kayak several times over. Anyway, I would appreciate comments. Obviously a little old submersible pump isn't as sexy looking as those Brit deck-mounted ones but if it works and offers great flexibility, why not? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:05 PM 2/4/99 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >In all this discussion of relative merits of foot pumps, handheld pumps, >deck mounted pumps, I wonder what is the experience of others with >battery operated ones. I bought one of those self contained battery operated pumps that use 3 d size batterys. It works but took over 15 minutes to empty my kayak and only 5 with a hand pump in calm conditions. The size is the main thing it won't fit behind the seat and has to fit between my legs. I put a piece of foam thru the handle so it would float if it left the kayak. It is better than nothing but needs a lot of improvements to work really good. I have never ran its batteries out cause I do not take or use it often. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> I went through a lot of trouble and trial/error to install my Rule500. I > do not think that the average American is willing to do any experimentation > in his/her nice looking fiberglass boat. Ditto some paddlers in aust, (not mentioning any places or boats). Get into them I say, it may be nervrewracking approaching your boat with a drill, but if you think about it, check out other boats and talk to paddlers, you can end up with a much better boat. Besides these boats can be repaired, even many of the plastic boats; I've had a redundant pump outlet welded closed, the result wasn't perfect, but I covered it up with some red reflective material, artfully cut, (my boat is red, and plastic) and it actually looks pretty good. I've seen fibreglass boats that have almost been cut in half through encounters with rock etc fixed up fine. Sometimes I wish I still had a glass boat because they are so readily modified. Besides by the time you use your boat a bit, hit rocks, drag it up beaches, knock it around, it won't be pretty anyway. nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: Julio MacWilliams >There are very few batteries that can be immersed, and those are heavy and expensive. Then, figuring out a way to charge the batteries while keeping the contacts from corroding is an even bigger challenge. ---------------- hi Julio, Consider a battery enclosed next to a pump. Encapsuled with them is a coil. If a magnet rotates within the coil, it generates a current that can charge the battery. Outside the battery/coil/pump box, place a motor with a magnet on the end of a shaft. Bring the outside magnet near the pump unit. Spin..... battery gets charged. ============= Several years ago, Paul Blankinship who lives in Raleigh NC designed this system for recharging small unmanned submarines. it has been used at sea in conjunction with researchers from Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution. If you want to contact Paul, send me and email. foxhill_at_shore.intercom.net bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/4/99 10:16:03 AM EST, pjwylie_at_planet.eon.net writes: << but for three hours was not game to even take one hand off the paddle for more than a second, and then only to flick the pump switch on or off." >> Sounds like the only thing you proved was that an Electric pump will keep your bilge dry. Everything else is speculation. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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