This is a response to the kevlar thread. I have found that Kevlar is a few ponds lighter than fiberglass but that it does not have the rigidity of fiberglass. If you want a boat made of an exotic fiber like kevlar I recommend that you buy a carbon and kevlar kayak. The carbon fibers will run one direction and the kevlar fibers will run in the opposite direction. That way you will have the rigidity and lightness of carbon in the same sheet as the flexible kevlar fibers. Another concern is how easy damage to a kayak will be. Working with fiberglass is easier than working with carbon or kevlar. Good Paddling, Don Dimond *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have done the calculations using Lloyd's standards and most sea kayaks (and canoes) get over designed due to stiffness requirements. In other words a boat designed to have only enough strength for slamming loads would not have enough rigidity to maintain its shape. Of course, I assumed a properly constructed boat. Not all builders get the hull/deck joints right etc. so what one boat does should not suggest that all boats will do the same. Like ships, the biggest danger to sea kayaks is impact with something hard. Anecdotal evidence can be found to support the magical qualities of any material but no one can really calculate how strong "strong" should be since no one really knows the magnitude of potential loads. I suspect most reputable builders produce boats suitable for the intended use. If you want more, then I am sure you can find a builder that can supply it. As for dropping boats off the roof, I have done one manufacturer's boats in Royalex, Royalite, Fiberglass, Kevlar, Spectra etc. In every case the boats survived the 20' drop just fine with some scratching. I do not think the results unusual at all but I do think that boats don't often fall off the factory roof in actual use. I once watched Darryl Lideigh of Mohawk canoes pound on one of his chopped fiberglass canoes with a hammer. The boat stood up just fine. Not sure what that proved. Real life proves more. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I avoided the purchase of a Kevlar boat basically because of the danger of cracks in the gelcoat. In fact, I passed up "the deal of the century." So, this doesn't really matter except for cosmetic reasons? Is Kevlar "stronger" than fiberglass or is it just lighter? Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: --snip-- > I once watched Darryl Lideigh of Mohawk canoes pound on one of his chopped > fiberglass canoes with a hammer. The boat stood up just fine. Not sure what > that proved. Real life proves more. The message seems pretty clear to me. If you see a Mohawk canoe, start beating on it with whatever tools of destruction you have at hand. Cheers, Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: March 12, 1999 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Slamming >I hope I am not starting a holy war but I doubt that any hardshell >manufacturer would want to drop a nice fiberglass kayak off of a factory >roof. The gelcoat would break off in pieces and scatter like the >contents of a large spilled package of Chiclets. Artistic patterns of >stress fractures would radiate across the hull, et al. OH gee Ralph. You shouldn't start a war with so little ammunition. One experience does not make a universal truth not to mention the cosmetic nature of stress cracks in the gel coat. I know of no one who ever drowned because their gel coat had stress cracks. The gel coat has a cosmetic value not a structural value. As one who has done the drop test as well as a few others I can say with some authority that you are a tad off the mark on this. No one has greater respect for the strength of folding boats than I but I have also done a lot of crash and bang on a lot of other materials that stood up just fine. Stronger doesn't necessarily mean better it just means stronger. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
hey there, >The message seems pretty clear to me. If you see a Mohawk canoe, start beating on it with whatever tools of destruction you have at hand. i had one of those as my first canoe back in the '70s. we beat the hell out of it and it held up fine. got my 10 g worth of fun. a few years ago, i was going to sell it to a friend for $20 - however the local canoe/kayak shop offered me $200 for it sight unseen. i said no deal till you see it. he saw it and gave me a check. i only paid about $230 for it... the dealer cleaned it up and sold it within a week. don't you just hate paddle shop dealers? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Of course when you began negotiating with the dealer you started with "look into my eyes...you're feeling sleepy." You really should not use you powers to take adantage of unsuspecting dealer like that. Cheers, Richard Culpeper Larry Bliven wrote: > hey there, > > >The message seems pretty clear to me. If you see a Mohawk canoe, start > beating > on it with whatever tools of destruction you have at hand. > > i had one of those as my first canoe back in the '70s. we beat the hell out > of it and it held up fine. got my 10 g worth of fun. > > a few years ago, i was going to sell it to a friend for $20 - however the > local canoe/kayak shop offered me $200 for it sight unseen. i said no deal > till you see it. he saw it and gave me a check. i only paid about $230 for > it... the dealer cleaned it up and sold it within a week. > > don't you just hate paddle shop dealers? > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ooops, that wasn't a chopped fiberglass Mohawk... i remember seeing the weave of cloth under the fine gel coat finish. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Robert C. Cline <rcline_at_onramp.net> To: John Winters <735769_at_ican.net>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: March 13, 1999 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Slamming >I avoided the purchase of a Kevlar boat basically because of the danger of >cracks in the gelcoat. In fact, I passed up "the deal of the century." >So, this doesn't really matter except for cosmetic reasons? Star cracks can appear in Fiberglass, Kevlar, Spectra layups. Gel coat has little strength but must be applied fairly thickly to assure that the gel will not lift, alligator, or fail to cover the substrate. If gel coat had the properties of, say, polyurrethane paints, no star cracking would occur. It cracks because of a lack of fiber support within the film > >Is Kevlar "stronger" than fiberglass or is it just lighter? Both. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Don wrote; >This is a response to the kevlar thread. >I have found that Kevlar is a few ponds lighter than >fiberglass but that it does not have the rigidity of >fiberglass. Quite true. Many builders using Kevlar use cores to stiffen the panels. Cores also have problems and ductile syntactic foam cores seem to perform best where impacts might be expected while some of the sheet foams and honeycombs provide the greatest weight savings. I have an 18 pound 17' kayak that has stood up just fine for the past three years but I sure don't hit anything with it. :-) >If you want a boat made of an exotic fiber >like Kevlar I recommend that you buy a carbon and Kevlar >kayak. The carbon fibers will run one direction and the >Kevlar fibers will run in the opposite direction. That >way you will have the rigidity and lightness of carbon >in the same sheet as the flexible Kevlar fibers. True also. One word of caution. Ideally the builder will sandwich the carbon between layers of Kevlar to offset the brittle nature of carbon in thin laminates. As Hank Hays says, "Carbon is not all it is cracked up to be." (Did I get that right Hank?) I recommend that the Kevlar laminates be BI-axial and that the carbon be Uni. directional and run diagonally across the hull. This provides a good blend of stiffness and impact resistance. I have seen recent reports condemning the fabrics with mixed fiber (carbon/Kevlar and glass/carbon). Apparently stresses build up causing breakage along the carbon strands. I do not know why this occurs but have seen examples so my conservative nature leans towards avoiding these materials. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
<< Is Kevlar "stronger" than fiberglass or is it just lighter? >> Kevlar fiber and cloth has superior tensile and tear strength to glass fiber and cloth. I think the real question is: " Are Kevlar composite boats "stronger" than fiberglass composite boats?" I believe the (long) answer is that, for the same weight boat, the Kevlar composite boat (usually a combination of kevlar and glass-fiber materials in polyester or vinylester resins) will be stronger and far less likely to suffer catastrophic failures (like the whole bow breaking off, versus just cracking) than the same model made solely with fiberglass. However, most manufacturers utilize the superior tensile strength of the Kevlar to make boats which are lighter but of approximately the same strength as their glass models, thus making them far more desirable to the customer who tends to worry a lot about weight. If I were ordering my "perfect" boat, I would request a heavier "expedition" Kevlar lay-up. What I would be looking for is a boat which is just as stiff, and considerably stronger than the (all) glass version, while saving (at most) 3 to 5 pounds (rather than the 10 to 20-pound savings of most Kevlar lay-ups). Steph Dutton had a special Kevlar boat made for his winter-time paddle of the Oregon coast, which weighed something like 15-20 pounds heavier than the stock glass model. It took tremendous abuse on that trip, then was later loaned to some no-mere-mortal who ran the Grand Canyon (yes, Class 5 sections and all) with its 16-1/2 foot hull loaded with full expedition camp gear. The boat looked beat, but unbroken. I wouldn't doubt you could drive a 16-wheeler over the thing. The reason people worry about spider cracking of the gel coat on Kevlar boats is because the lighter Kevlar boat is usually more flexible (while not necessarily weaker) than the standard-weight glass version. This is not a big problem for people who exercise a lot of care with their boats, but may give some grief to the more hell-bent adventurous, those prone to sit heavily on their decks, and to outfitters who must allow their boats to be used by the careless or uninitiated. Curved sections are stronger and more rigid than flat sections, so boats which have vaulted decks have fewer problems with gel coat cracking than those with flat decks, unless the manufacturer takes measures to stiffen the flat sections (coremat, carbon fiber, or others as mentioned by John Winters). Harold So. Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Original question: >>Is Kevlar "stronger" than fiberglass or is it just lighter? >> Harold wrote: >Kevlar fiber and cloth has superior tensile and tear strength to glass fiber >and cloth. I think the real question is: " Are Kevlar composite boats >"stronger" than fiberglass composite boats?" Hank? Agreed, but it's a slippery question because of different kinds of strengths. Strong isn't necessarily the same as strong. Materials break in many different ways. Tensile strength (pulling apart), compressive strength (pushing together), shear strength (cutting as with scissors), interlaminar shear (will the plys separate easily - the boat "come unglued"), plus a lot of slow acting factors like durability (slow wearing away), abrasion resistance (related to the previous), weatherability (environment, usually water, affecting the material), there are many more... Keep it simple -- Kevlar just doesn't reinforce exactly like glass. Harold: >I believe the (long) answer is that, for the same weight boat, the Kevlar >composite boat (usually a combination of kevlar and glass-fiber materials in >polyester or vinylester resins) will be stronger and far less likely to suffer >catastrophic failures (like the whole bow breaking off, versus just cracking) >than the same model made solely with fiberglass. Hank: Agree, usually, but a combination of the two will be even better. By the way polyester doesn't stick very well to Kevlar. Vinylester is better, but epoxy is required to do a reasonable job in my opinion. Not many boat manufacturers must agree as few use epoxy. In low stress situations, vinylester and Kevlar together are probably fine. I consider most sea kayak applications as low stress, excepting those few instances of "abuse" and "slamming" I keep seeing in the subject header above here (cringe, cringe..). I don't consider vinylester and Kevlar as good for whitewater boats, but it probably is used in some. Harold: >However, most manufacturers utilize the superior tensile strength of the >Kevlar to make boats which are lighter but of approximately the same strength >as their glass models, thus making them far more desirable to the customer who >tends to worry a lot about weight. Hank: And they can usually get away with it because most sea kayakers are relatively easy on their boats. Harold: >If I were ordering my "perfect" boat, I would request a heavier "expedition" >Kevlar lay-up. Hank: I've done exactly that for the last couple composite boats I bought. Despite all this composite construction advice I'm spewing, I haven't built a boat for me for several years now. Plan on doing it, just haven't gotten around to it yet. These people keep ordering paddles.... Harold: >some no-mere-mortal who ran the Grand Canyon (yes, Class 5 sections and all) Hank: The Grand Canyon is very easy on boats. If you hit a rock while in the Grand Canyon it's because you tried to (or don't belong there in the first place?). People ran Klepper folders down that stretch back in the 60s without any equipment problems. Harold: >The reason people worry about spider cracking of the gel coat on Kevlar boats >is because the lighter Kevlar boat is usually more flexible (while not >necessarily weaker) than the standard-weight glass version. Hank: Yup. Exactly right. Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I think the issue with some paddlers doubting the " strength " of kevlar is related to the specific property of hull stiffness. Kevlar FRP layups have tremendous tensile strength for their weight and are superior to other materials for tensile strength such as polyolefins, marine plywood, E-glass FRP layups etc. However since it is so strong per weight and volume the layups often have much thinner hull than the other materials. I am sure some mechanical engineer will call me on the equation, but I recall that the stiffness of a sheet of material (its resistance to deflection or bending) varys by the square of the thickness of that sheet. Even a slight increase in hull thickness pays big dividends in stiffness and resistance to denting or " oil canning ". My father is the plastics expert who has designed everything from FRP car bodies to a proposed design for FRP tank treads, and could pass along all of the proper tech-talk and equations to anyone who really wants to immerse themselves in the technical aspects of FRP composites. If you are putting a load on a sheet of material you may be much better off stiffness wise with a a weaker material but a greater thickness. An inch thick hunk of styrofoam is much thicker than a thin sheet of Kelvar FRP for example. A thicker hull such as a ceder strip or marine plywood is going to be much more resistant to denting or bending in most cases than a thin Kevlar layup. Some race designs use a PVC foam core or other filler material between Kevlar FRP skins or other structure modifications such as ribs to give the layup thickness and much greater stiffness. This is unfortuantely ususally very expensive. My experience with a lot of thin Kevlar layups is they bend, and dent but they don't break. You may crack the resin, but it is damned hard to tear or break apart a kevlar layup boat. However if your kayak has a big dent in it or folds in half still in one piece you might be wishing you had traded some of that tensile strength for a more rigid hull mad from a " weaker " material. Hank Hays wrote: > Original question: > >>Is Kevlar "stronger" than fiberglass or is it just lighter? > >> > Harold wrote: > >Kevlar fiber and cloth has superior tensile and tear strength to glass fiber > >and cloth. I think the real question is: " Are Kevlar composite boats > >"stronger" than fiberglass composite boats?" > > Hank? > Agreed, but it's a slippery question because of different kinds of > strengths. Strong isn't necessarily the same as strong. Materials break > in many different ways. Tensile strength (pulling apart), compressive > strength (pushing together), shear strength (cutting as with scissors), > interlaminar shear (will the plys separate easily - the boat "come > unglued"), plus a lot of slow acting factors like durability (slow wearing > away), abrasion resistance (related to the previous), weatherability > (environment, usually water, affecting the material), there are many > more... Keep it simple -- Kevlar just doesn't reinforce exactly like > glass. > > Harold: > >I believe the (long) answer is that, for the same weight boat, the Kevlar > >composite boat (usually a combination of kevlar and glass-fiber materials in > >polyester or vinylester resins) will be stronger and far less likely to > suffer > >catastrophic failures (like the whole bow breaking off, versus just cracking) > >than the same model made solely with fiberglass. > > Hank: > Agree, usually, but a combination of the two will be even better. By the > way polyester doesn't stick very well to Kevlar. Vinylester is better, but > epoxy is required to do a reasonable job in my opinion. Not many boat > manufacturers must agree as few use epoxy. In low stress situations, > vinylester and Kevlar together are probably fine. I consider most sea > kayak applications as low stress, excepting those few instances of "abuse" > and "slamming" I keep seeing in the subject header above here (cringe, > cringe..). I don't consider vinylester and Kevlar as good for whitewater > boats, but it probably is used in some. > > Harold: > >However, most manufacturers utilize the superior tensile strength of the > >Kevlar to make boats which are lighter but of approximately the same strength > >as their glass models, thus making them far more desirable to the customer > who > >tends to worry a lot about weight. > > Hank: > And they can usually get away with it because most sea kayakers are > relatively easy on their boats. > > Harold: > >If I were ordering my "perfect" boat, I would request a heavier "expedition" > >Kevlar lay-up. > > Hank: > I've done exactly that for the last couple composite boats I bought. > Despite all this composite construction advice I'm spewing, I haven't built > a boat for me for several years now. Plan on doing it, just haven't gotten > around to it yet. These people keep ordering paddles.... > > Harold: > >some no-mere-mortal who ran the Grand Canyon (yes, Class 5 sections and all) > > Hank: > The Grand Canyon is very easy on boats. If you hit a rock while in the > Grand Canyon it's because you tried to (or don't belong there in the first > place?). People ran Klepper folders down that stretch back in the 60s > without any equipment problems. > > Harold: > >The reason people worry about spider cracking of the gel coat on Kevlar boats > >is because the lighter Kevlar boat is usually more flexible (while not > >necessarily weaker) than the standard-weight glass version. > > Hank: > Yup. Exactly right. > > Hank Hays > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
You were right, this mechanical engineer will call you on it. Bending stiffness is proportional to thickness cubed (even more sensitive to thickness than you thought). Cheers, Dave Carlson wanewman_at_uswest.net wrote: > <snip> > thinner hull than the other materials. I am sure some mechanical engineer will > call me on the equation, but I recall that the stiffness of a sheet of material > (its resistance to deflection or bending) varys by the square of the thickness of > that sheet. Even a slight increase in hull thickness pays big dividends in > stiffness and resistance to denting or " oil canning ". My father is the plastics > expert who has designed everything from FRP car bodies to a proposed design for > FRP tank treads, and could pass along all of the proper tech-talk and equations to > anyone who really wants to immerse themselves in the technical aspects of FRP > composites. > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: HTERVORT_at_aol.com <HTERVORT_at_aol.com> To: 735769_at_ican.net <735769_at_ican.net>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Slamming ><< Is Kevlar "stronger" than fiberglass or is it just lighter? > >> > I have a Kevlar X-Par Missile, a racing kayak that is 23 feet long, has an 18" beam and a large cockpit. The size of the cockpit may compromize its structural strength. I once wet-exited after missing a roll. After getting back to the beach, in frustration I lifted one end of the boat to drain it while it still had considerable water inside. In doing so I cracked the hull in the cockpit section. It has since been repaired and is stronger now than as originally built, but I am concerned that if I were to have to wet exit and re-enter in big seas with a flooded boat, the boat could break up. Any comments? Has anyone ever heard of a kayak breaking up in seas? Bob Apter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob, >Any comments? Has anyone ever heard of a kayak breaking up in seas? I have not, but it would surprise me if it hasn't. Doesn't happen in whitewater, even to glass boats, it's the rocks that do the damage. I've paddled fairly light composite open canoes (with airbags) down the Grand Canyon twice now without any problems. I'd expect more damage when a sea kayak hits the beach (as per these "abuse" and "slamming" threads), but a really light racing boat like you are using isn't built for much except flatwater racing (impact? what's impact?) and impact is a no, no. Big waves with water already in the boat could do it. Probably wouldn't hurt a boat designed for whitewater much unless it was continually pounded for weeks and weeks. Hank Hays Lightning Paddles *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: [snip] > >I once watched Darryl Lideigh of Mohawk canoes pound on one of his chopped >fiberglass canoes with a hammer. The boat stood up just fine. Not sure what >that proved. Real life proves more. > My neighbour's rotomolded whitewater kayak was riding on someone else's car when the car was rolled. After the car was righted, and the pillars in the boat were pushed back into place, there were no scratches that he was sure were new. Some time later, with the same boat, he got stuck in a hole. He came out on a rope, and the boat flushed out later: at least one good big new scratch on the boat. But a few years earlier, in a glass boat, he was pinned on another river. Two of us got him out, but it took a while. I have never seen anyone so happy to see his boat break in half. It is for this reason that careful makers of glass whitewater boats made the cockpit region the weakest part of the boat. And what does that prove? Don't know, but here are some possibilities: 1) rotomolded boats are incredibly tough. 2) moving water can break anything 3) stronger need not be better. 4) with age and experience you can amass a stock of irrelevant anecdotes for any occasion. (So _that's_ why we do these things!) Regards Bruce Bruce Winterbon bwinterb_at_magma.ca http://magma.ca:80/~bwinterb The government measures the health of the economy by how fast the rich get richer. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob, Hank said it best. The X-Par is an extremely light boat. A friend of mine always stands astraddle his whenever its not tied down to his roof rack because it will blow away in the slightest puff of wind. Its designed for speeeed and not for heavy conditions. I think I'd be concerned if I were in big seas, but then I'm a professional worrywart. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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