This is response to the group paddling thread. >From the trips I have organized for our club TCSKA, I have found that there should be an understanding of how the group will paddle before anyone leaves the beach. I feel that the group paddling speed is determined by the slowest paddler in the group. If the weather is calm and there is no expectation that the weather will change I usually allow a group to split off from the main group if some paddlers wish to paddle faster. This group that breaks away should have an experienced organizer who is comfortable in the conditions and who knows the area everyone is paddling in. In nice conditions everyone has to remain within sight and they have to look at the organizer every few minutes to see if a raised paddle is sticking up in the air. I like to use a raised paddle to signal that we need to group up and talk. If conditions are challenging then I think paddlers should be close enough to each other so that verbal communication can take place. This is also expected in areas where boat traffic exists. It is easier to see a group of sea kayaks than a single sea kayak. My motto when paddling with a group is that you are part of a group, not a solo paddler paddling with other people. Good Paddling, Don Dimond *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Kirby, I wish it wasn't so, but your experience is far from unique and is not confined to any geographical area. In fact, I'm going to predict that the responses to your post will show it to be a universal problem. And, boy - am I eager to hear what good ideas come out of your query. To be brief, I'll suggest that we should all: 1. Take courses which teach good kayaking group-management skills (leadership and followership); 2. Always actively support proper pod behavior on all trips we do, no matter how great or small; and 3. Be willing to be the "a-hole for a day" (as a friend puts it), by acting as leader. It is truly amazing how people (we all) can act when out on the water, particularly during times of stress. It takes a lot of control to do the right thing when conditions start to get ugly and the fight-or-flight reactions start to kick in. The sad and scary part is just how little it takes for a person to start functioning as if s/he were the only one on the water, even when in the company of dozens of both lesser and greater abilities. What say you all? Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The biggest problem that I have seen in group paddles is a lack of communication about who belongs to what group and what their responsiblities are to the group. As for being the " A-hole " of the day I think it is worth commenting that no one really likes being ordered around by a " leader " on a recreational day paddle. Self appointed dictators are not likely to have anyone pay the slightest bit of attention to them during a paddle. In a large group of paddlers there should be plenty of people available to help in leadership roles. When it comes to our club trips we feel very strongly about having trip organizers, rather than leaders. We do not offer guide services and people must take responsibility for their own safety and not rely on a " leader " who will baby sit them. That said the more experienced club members do take leadership roles on trips and the less experienced people as common sense would dictate usually defer to their judgement. You can of course come across unreasonable paddlers who insists on participating in trips that are beyond their skill level or refuse to paddle responsibly within their group. We call them solo paddlers! We tell our trip organizers to send away anyone they are not comfortable with. To aviod nasty surprises we require that participants call the trip organizer before the trip, rather than just show up at the put-in. If the paddler is not well known to the trip organizer its time to ask a few questions to avoid problems later with improper equipment or insufficient skills. Frank Goodman once gave a short seminar on group paddling where he pointed out that when paddling in a group of five paddlers or less you don't have to make concious effort to count them up - you just take them in at a glance and know they are all there. When paddling in a group of 10 or more this is not the case, and adding seas over three feet and only some of the group will be visable at any given time. If a big group shows up for an event it is time to start splitting out into smaller groups. I have had good luck with dividing up paddlers into small groups with at least two strong paddlers for say a group of four or five. If one sets the pace and one acts as the sweep to make sure no one gets left behind it is pretty easy to keep the group together. Obivously in high winds novice paddlers may not have the boat control to keep the desired heading and it may become necessary assist with towing or even a rafted tow if they really start to lose their composure. Paddling in small tight groups lets you watch body language and talk to other paddlers in your group so you see the warning signs of paddlers who are exceeding their comfort level before they get out of control. I would rather have two intermediate paddlers looking out for three novices than one " expert " who thinks he can ride herd on a big group of ten or more paddlers. I don't care if you are a kayak God, when the shit hits the fan it is very difficult to keep a group of three novices together and a larger group will inevitably scatter. What risks you are willing to take with the weather or trip difficulty should depend on the stength of the group as a whole and the skills of the least experienced paddlers, not on the strength of the " leader " or organizer of the trip. So how do you assess the skill level of a group of strangers? That is a tough one and again Frank had some good suggestions. He gave the example of making a ten mile crossing to and island with a group of unknown experience. If you ask " Who is up for the crossing " odds are very few will admit that they are not comfortable with the trip. It is easy for egos to get in the way or for novices to assume that it will be Ok because the more experience paddlers will take care of them. He ususally justs asks specific questions relating to kayak experience such as " How many people here sat in a kayak for more than six hours, 10? 20?; How many have paddled more that 30 miles in a day? How many can roll, both sides? in surf? etc. etc. If you do not feel comfortable with the strength of your group the easy out without bruising egos is for the defacto leader such as Frank to say " I really don't feel comfortable making the crossing today with this weather forecast etc." HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote: > Kirby, > > I wish it wasn't so, but your experience is far from unique and is not > confined to any geographical area. In fact, I'm going to predict that the > responses to your post will show it to be a universal problem. And, boy - am > I eager to hear what good ideas come out of your query. > > To be brief, I'll suggest that we should all: 1. Take courses which teach > good kayaking group-management skills (leadership and followership); 2. Always > actively support proper pod behavior on all trips we do, no matter how great > or small; and 3. Be willing to be the "a-hole for a day" (as a friend puts > it), by acting as leader. > > It is truly amazing how people (we all) can act when out on the water, > particularly during times of stress. It takes a lot of control to do the > right thing when conditions start to get ugly and the fight-or-flight > reactions start to kick in. The sad and scary part is just how little it > takes for a person to start functioning as if s/he were the only one on the > water, even when in the company of dozens of both lesser and greater > abilities. > > What say you all? > > Harold > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
wanewman_at_uswest.net wrote: > > The biggest problem that I have seen in group paddles is a lack of communication > about who belongs to what group and what their responsiblities are to the group. > As for being the " A-hole " of the day I think it is worth commenting that no one > really likes being ordered around by a " leader " on a recreational day paddle. > Self appointed dictators are not likely to have anyone pay the slightest bit of > attention to them during a paddle. In a large group of paddlers there should be > plenty of people available to help in leadership roles. [snip] > I would rather have two intermediate paddlers looking out for three novices than > one " expert " who thinks he can ride herd on a big group of ten or more > paddlers. I don't care if you are a kayak God, when the shit hits the fan it is > very difficult to keep a group of three novices together and a larger group will > inevitably scatter. What risks you are willing to take with the weather or trip > difficulty should depend on the stength of the group as a whole and the skills of > the least experienced paddlers, not on the strength of the " leader " or organizer > of the trip. [snip] Hope I have not destroyed the sense of wanewman's post by my extensive snipping. Just like to add my two cents on two of his points. 1. Re: "In a large group of paddlers there should be plenty of people available to help in leadership roles." : this is ideal, but not easily achieved in "uncontrolled groups," such as club paddles can be. There needs to be one person *who assumes the responsibility* for making sure that the group paddles sensibly. Wanewman's club apparently does not use the "dictatorial" style of group paddle leader. The trip leader is really a coordinator, albeit he/she does weed out paddlers of unknown skill levels ahead of launch time. This approach works fine if the culture of the paddling club reinforces good decision making and the dominant (more experienced) paddlers adhere to good principles of group management and do not wander off from the rest of the group. Sounds like wanewman's club is successful in this approach. 2. Re: "I don't care if you are a kayak God, when the shit hits the fan it is very difficult to keep a group of three novices together and a larger group will inevitably scatter." : Amen to that. Scattering is anathema to dealing with difficult conditions, and quickly separates skilled paddlers from novices, *unless attention is paid to this problem ahead of time.* I suspect wanewman's club is sophisticated in this regard, but other groups may want to establish "pods" of paddlers in which a lead paddler of greater experience guides each subset of the larger group. More structure than most will want on a "recreational paddle," but probably vital when good decision-making is made difficult by deteriorating conditions and inability to communicate amongst the group. Not being a club paddler or a group leader (any more), normally I would stay out of a discussion like this. However, I happened to run across an account a couple months ago of a disaster which occurred in the Charlottes about 1994-1995 in which a 10-paddler guided group got slammed by nasty winds and following seas in the Laskeek Bay area. The upshot was that they got split into three or four groups, and with only two guides, two of the groups were composed of novices only. One client died and two others suffered injuries and/or severe hypothermia. Having paddled a lot in areas where such guided groups are common, I wonder how it is there are not more disasters like that one. This incident was very humbling, and very sad. Don't remember the URL, but I believe it was part of the annual "incident" summary for Canadian CG or something. If I find it, I'll post it. Good case study of what not to do. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: Re: > ... I happened to run across an > account a couple months ago of a disaster which occurred in the Charlottes > about 1994-1995 in which a 10-paddler guided group got slammed by nasty > winds and following seas in the Laskeek Bay area. [snip] This actually occurred in 1993. I found the incident report, written by the Transportation Safety Board of Canada. It is part of a large list of accounts of marine-related accidents at: http://mail.bcpl.lib.md.us/~kolsen/cana.html Here are the URL's: Synopsis: http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/reports/marine/earlier/sem93w0008.html Complete report: http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/reports/marine/earlier/em93w0008.html -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Regarding group paddling, I did something for our Hudson River Watertrail newsletter back last year that may be helpful. I can't recall if I sent this on to Paddlewise earlier or not. If I have, please forgive the repetition. START HRWA STORY Paddling in groups is an art form, a free form one at that. I learned that early on in my paddling life. I was on my first circumnavigation of Manhattan in a group of 20 boats, a mix of mainly kayaks and some canoes. The leader had some Prussian in him (is it PC to use such a ethnic stereotype term?) and set certain rules he insisted we all adhere to. First, no one should paddle out ahead of him. One can argue with where the leader should be in a group, but to my untrained ear it sounded reasonable enough not to get ahead of him. Next rule, we should paddle in rows of two (like you paired off for first grade field trips). Each boat should be 14 feet from the one next to it and each pair should be 12 feet from the pair ahead and behind (maybe I don’t have the dimensions quite right, but it was something like that). That presented some interesting problems. For example, should the distance between the pairs be based on the average length of each pair or the longest of the two boats? Of course, it was a nutty idea. Different boats move through the water at different speeds and patterns especially in reaction to favorable strong currents or winds. To comply with the leader’s demand, some people would have had to back paddle to stay back within formation. Wind and wakes soon played among the boats. As it turned out, some boats took to the currents boost and flew out ahead of the leader or their paddlers just tired of paddling backwards to stay behind him. The leader eventually abandoned the group at about the half way point. Just disappeared. And here I learned two valuable lessons about group paddling. Lesson #1. Don’t expect too much of a group (and, I guess, a leader!). Lesson #2. Groups find a pattern of their own, if you let them and just coax the phenomenon along a bit. The second point showed itself right away once we knew our leader had split. We all huddled around. One group of seasoned round-Manhattaners got together and agreed among themselves to forge ahead at a good clip. The other group, including me and Donna in our double Klepper, rallied around one person whom we found had paddled around Manhattan before but didn’t feel like charging down the Hudson particularly fast. Each of the two groups remained tight within themselves with reasonable distances of contact among the paddlers in it, namely able to communicate by whistle or shouting. It was a great trip! I’ve thought a lot about that eventful July day a decade ago. I have since seen good leaders and clueless leaders. And I have listened to the experts lecture about group dynamics and leadership. Here are some pointers I have come up with for any one who finds herself in a position of “leadership” or coordinating a group of paddlers on the water. Please don’t treat these as gospel. Think of them as pondering points for establishing your own level of comfort with the role. Of course, I expect that you are fully equipped to take care of emergencies yourself, know where you are going. etc. You most definitely should have an idea of traffic patterns in the waters you are dealing with, what the currents are doing, what the weather is expected to do that day especially wind changes and potential storms, what particularly spots on your course have a potential to create problems such as ferry slips, what places are good bailout points if an emergency arises, etc. This is the kind of savvy you should have anyway if paddling solo. If you don’t, you should probably not be “leading” the group. 1. Get a real feel for the capacity of the individuals BEFORE you starting off. Look at the people. Talk to those you don’t know from previous trips. Look over the kind of boats they have. Be careful not to make assumptions about the latter. Some people in the sleekest and longest of boats may not know how to move them well. Some in the shorter boats may be faster than everyone else and more experienced. One of the fastest paddlers I know paddles a 12 year old 14 foot length fiberglass boat and can beat anyone on the water with it. You should be looking over people and boats anyway for other reasons. See who has bilge pumps, spare paddles, paddle floats or seems to be packing extra clothing or has a compass or radio or anything that can be brought to good use in an emergency, i.e. be taking a safety gear inventory for yourself. 2. Based on what you can see and establish at the put-in, tailor your plans for the trip. If you thought you might do a 12 miler, scale back if it looks like newcomers are on it and might not be capable of the original plan. Same goes for such things as any plans for paddling into wind or current for a bit of the time or crossing a very busy, summer traffic Hudson. Scale back your overall plans to the LCD, less common denominator, your weakest paddlers. You do have adjustment room...see below. 3. Reconsider your plans after about 15 minutes of paddling. (Do mention beforehand that you want to stop for a few minutes at that pier up ahead or a certain jetty.) Here is where you have a chance to see if people who look weak aren’t and those who seem sleek are slugs. Ask yourself questions such as: Is the group paddling pretty much together at the same speed? Are some people racing ahead? Do some seem particularly insecure? I once had a guy on a trip that was so spooked by every motorboat wake that he felt sure would swamp him that he paddled hard into the wakes to take them head-on. He was doing so so often that he kept getting deeper and deeper into the path of other large craft. That’s a very low LCD! 4. If you find that the group is getting separated, now is the time to formalize that de facto separation. To make the separation work for all the paddlers, you might want to try some of the following: —Give the faster group something to do. Your objective is to burn up their energy and speed. For example, send them off to explore something on the other side of the river, a potential stopping point for on the way back. Or up some creek, or to scout ahead for a good lunch spot. And have them paddle back toward you part way to report what they have found. What they will wind up doing is probably paddling about twice the distance the second, slower group is covering. So the fast ones are getting a good workout and are less bored and frustrated. —Agree on rendezvous points every half hour or so. —When the groups meet up, make certain that the slower group has a bit of a break. —After the short break, send the slower group off first. This way they don’t feel they are eating dust all day. Then send off the faster group to again do something. 5. Make certain that each group is fully self-contained in terms of dealing with normal parts of the trip and emergencies. Each group should have one or some experienced paddlers who are capable of effecting a rescue in the event of a capsize, pumping out, seeing to the victims condition, warm, confidence, etc. You are looking to have someone who can do a rescue in 15 seconds or so after making contact with the capsized boat. 6. If the group that starts off tends to stay together, then, of course, no need for separation. But you should still be thinking of group dynamics. Keep looking around at how paddlers are doing. Don’t paddle much in the lead as you can’t see much or establish much about the group from that position. Let someone be in front who you know won’t race off but can keep a good clip and be alert. You are probably best off staying somewhere in the middle but moving around at times toward the front and the rear. Just because the group is together doesn’t mean you shouldn’t think in terms of assignments. Designating a sweep and rotating that person is a given. But also making certain that a good paddler is next to or close to your LCD paddler or paddlers. Ask everyone to be on the lookout when nearing areas you know could be troublesome. No one should feel they are just a passenger. 7. Communications. This is a tricky area. Ideally your paddlers should all be close enough together that they can communicate by conversation. But it doesn’t happen even in a fairly tight knit group. And paddlers often will be out of easy talking distance. The trouble is that there are no universally agreed upon signals. BCU doesn’t agree with ACA or with XYZ club or guru A or know-it-all B. I have seen so many conflicting ideas on signals. Also some signal systems are so intricate, often with bare distinctions between such messages as “let’s stop for a photo” and “somebody has died”, that how can you really communicate with them. Keep it real simple and to just three or four key messages. Here are some suggestions that are easy to distinguish from one another and quite visible: a)”We have an emergency!” Blow your whistle like mad. Wave your paddle vigorously. In a very agitated manner, swing your raised arms, hat, anything you can hold up high. It is an emergency. b)”Watch out for X or avoid Y!” Blow your whistle a blast or two to get attention if you feel it necessary. Then point your paddle toward the danger to avoid and gesture with a slit throat motion. This is good for pointing out something like a sandbar or some vessel that is getting dangerously close. c)”Let’s go in this direction.” Again, whistle a blast or two to get attention if you feel it necessary (generally try to avoid whistle blasts except for an emergency, i.e. don’t be whistle happy). Then point your paddle in the right direction and starting paddling toward that way. d) “Let’s get together to talk, rest, normal stuff.” Raise your paddle vertically and be facing the rest of the group if you can; have the first other person or two who comes to you to also raise their paddle vertically. It is a clear signal for a pow-wow. Looks impressive and official. SUMMARY There are no hard and fast rules for paddling in a group. Use your common sense. Be flexible. Let everyone know what you plan and give them a chance to agree, disagree, etc. Relax and let it be safe and fun! END STORY ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
How about a psychological profile from each prospective paddler (AND CAMPER)! Last weekend we were camped out on a key in the Gulf, looking at the Milky Way and putting up with one drunk/stoned paddler who wanted to play Charades!? I learned a few things...Have a wing shelter, comfortable chairs, a kitchen "table", a bug suit and know who's going on the trip! This paddler headed out solo the next morning, to the great relief of the rest of the group! cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Bob, Your story puts me in mind of a situation I was involved with several years ago. It was our local club paddle and the weather was good. The trip was being organized and lead by a friend and I was just tagging along as a member of the group. The result was I didn't pay any attention to some of the new paddlers that showed up. We then headed off for a 2 km crossing to D'Arcy Island. Just to put people in the picture this crossing is situated at the near the top of Haro Strait and very open to changing weather patterns. We were about halfway across and the water was a little choppy but nothing to really worry about. Unfortunately the group was also starting to splinter up into several smaller groups. This is when I noticed this one paddler, he was paddling furiously between groups and heading out off on his own and wasn't wearing a PFD. I was thinking at the time I should mention something when he comes closer to us. Eventually this guy finally did come over to our group. I mentioned to him that the further you get from other paddlers the longer it takes for you to be rescued if something were to happen. I then asked why he didn't have his PFD on. He said he didn't need it. I then mentioned to him, "You didn't notice that everyone else has one on". It is a club prerequisite that everyone wear their PFD. I then asked him where his PFD was, he said, "In my back deck". As he came closer I noticed something else. He didn't have a spray deck on either. I then asked him where his spray deck was and he motioned that it was in the same place as his PFD. As we continued talking I asked him if he wasn't nervous paddling out here without a PFD or spray deck and just having a t-shirt and cotton shorts. He wasn't at all nervous. I guess ignorance is bliss. I then asked him how long has he been kayaking. His reply was, "How long have we been on the water?" I then mentioned to him that I was sure nervous because it would probably be some dummy like me who would be put in jeopardy trying to save some a....hole like him. He didn't reply but continued paddling for a while. Later I motioned to some other paddlers that we should join up in a small cove by D'Arcy Island and let the others catch up, which we did. Then as I turned around to speak to this guy I noticed he was several hundred metres away going in another direction. No one else saw him again that day or since. Later that day I spoke to the trip leader about the situation and he had mentioned that the guy just showed up at the last minute so no one was able to speak to him about the trip. Because of this incident our club has made it a policy to check all new paddlers before they go out. As for me I quickly gained a reputation of scaring away new members. Kirby -----Original Message----- From: Bob Denton [SMTP:BDenton_at_aquagulf.com] Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 7:17 AM To: HTERVORT_at_aol.com; stevens_at_islandnet.com; PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Group Paddling How about a psychological profile from each prospective paddler (AND CAMPER)! Last weekend we were camped out on a key in the Gulf, looking at the Milky Way and putting up with one drunk/stoned paddler who wanted to play Charades!? I learned a few things...Have a wing shelter, comfortable chairs, a kitchen "table", a bug suit and know who's going on the trip! This paddler headed out solo the next morning, to the great relief of the rest of the group! cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I << t is truly amazing how people (we all) can act when out on the water, > particularly during times of stress. It takes a lot of control to do the > right thing when conditions start to get ugly and the fight-or-flight > reactions start to kick in. The sad and scary part is just how little it > takes for a person to start functioning as if s/he were the only one on the > water, even when in the company of dozens of both lesser and greater > abilities. >> I noted this during a long crossing. A group of four paddlers (as others have said this is the ideal group size) going into the current and wind that picked up to the point one paddler was slowing down. I stayed with him during the crossing the other two disappeared ahead of us. The measure of a Sea kayaker is not the extreme conditions he/she can paddle in but the rough conditions they can still assist others. "Joe Black is a Force 6 paddler but only a Force 3 rescuer" At what point are you more concerned with staying up right and getting out of a situation then you are about others? You are in fear for your life and that slow #_at_# next to you is going to get you killed. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/28/99 6:14:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, Tomckayak_at_aol.com writes: << The measure of a Sea kayaker is not the extreme conditions he/she can paddle in but the rough conditions they can still assist others. "Joe Black is a Force 6 paddler but only a Force 3 rescuer" At what point are you more concerned with staying up right and getting out of a situation then you are about others? >> Tom, I love it!! Your force-rating for rescue skills strikes me as a powerfully poignant way of expressing an all-too-frequent problem. I _will_ find a way to incorporate it into my instruction -- thank you for such an elegant teaching tool. If your partners rated Force 6 paddle skills and Force 3 rescue skills, they also rated Force 0 pod skills for their demonstrated lack of concern for your safety and welfare. I wonder if those individuals would walk off and leave their friends, mothers and children alone and unsupported in a dark Los Angeles alley if they could not, or would not keep up? I would hazard to estimate that most paddlers are at least 2 or 3 Beaufort numbers lower in pod skills (those skills relating to rescues, group dynamics, leadership, followership, and other areas needed to qualify as a positive, contributing addition to a paddling pod) than in their raw paddling skills. Further, while a large percentage of paddlers might leave their first introductory SK classes rating a solid F1 or F2 in both areas, the gap between those skills usually continues to widen as they practice paddling skills every time they kayak, but rarely (if ever) practice rescues, group dynamics and the like. This may apply somewhat less to those who actively participate in club or group activities where the group is strongly safety-conscious and willing to tutor the initiate. And it may apply less in those areas of the world where people are raised riding Gotham's subways instead of Disney's Matterhorn, or where kids are routinely warned about the bears, alligators or pumas in the back yard, but I still expect it is more prevalent than I would hope. The incidents in _Deep Trouble_ and other tales of mishap and death usually involve glaring failures in proper pod protocol. This fact is telling us that many don't get the picture, even though only a relative few ever pay the price. Tom, although it took some time, I'm glad you replied to this old thread. I have been watching to see how much would come of it, and I've been both surprised and saddened that only about 9 people contributed anything. I know that this subject has probably been drummed to death before, but how many responses do we routinely see about Canadian Ballast and GPS's and other equipment? Why not the same interest in safety? All the GPS and VHF and BFD equipment in the world may not save you when the ax falls, while one good partner who stayed by your side could save your life. Off-line I've been corresponding lately with a friend in Northern Cal who is going through the agony of discovering that her paddling group cannot be depended upon. Though they say they are committed to the safety of one- another, they routinely lose contact with individuals, spontaneously split into smaller groups which leaves less-qualified paddlers grouped together and unsupported, and make the assumption that someone who has split off has done so deliberately and couldn't be having any problems. I see this kind of thing all the time, and I empathize with all those paddlers out there who have felt various levels of dread, fear, or just plain loneliness upon realizing they have been cut lose by their partners, left to paddle or die. I remember a few times when I had to deal with the extreme disappointment in my own partners when they assumed I'd be OK and left me to fend for myself. The protocols stated in the other posts on this thread are all well known and valid. And if they work in your group, then I say "congratulations" but I also think you either have a very sophisticated and caring group, or a looser interpretation of what constitutes proper pod behavior than I. If you are blessed with such a group, then perhaps the question is: What about those times when you find yourself in a new, unsophisticated or uncooperative group? How do you make all those wonderful protocols work when people don't listen when you *do* communicate? when people can't agree on what "keeping together" means? when, in spite of all you do, they still insist on doing what they want to do, regardless of the group welfare? What say you all? What real experiences have you had that tell the difference? Now leaving my soapbox in So. Cal., Harold :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Harold wrote: > What say you all? What real experiences have you had that tell the > difference? Zero group experience...so apply my standard "I'm a novice who doesn't know any better" disclaimer. When the fight or flight instinct kicks in, I imagine it is very very difficult to overcome the flight tendency. Especially if you have no personal ties to your group, or your confidence in your own skills under pressure is in doubt. The extreme danger here is really to the novice in these conditions. The novice, under the notion that the group will keep him/her out of trouble, is more likely to attempt a paddle beyond their skills. They probably would never try such a paddle alone. So when the group breaks down under stress, the novice is suddenly way in over their head (no pun intended). My advice to the novice would be to ask other paddlers how group members behaved in past outings. If a person has ever felt deserted, I suspect that person will speak up publicly or privately to you if you ask, and tell you who to stay away from (or more importantly, who to stay near). It is important to try and find out how your buddies will perform under stress. I've seen people who are normally concerned for you forget you exist under combat conditions. At the same time I've seen people who are complete loners risk his life while under fire to get every person to safety during battle. All paddlers must sometimes extend their experience by paddling in conditions that are a little beyond their comfort range. This does not mean throwing caution to the wind and taking on a trip way beyond your skill level. Build experience gradually. Increase paddling conditions gradually. Choose your paddling partners carefully. A novice has no right to assume the group will make up for his/her lack of skill. > I know that this subject has probably been drummed to death > before, but how many responses do we routinely see about > Canadian Ballast and GPS's and other equipment? Why not > the same interest in safety? All the GPS and VHF and BFD > equipment in the world may not save you when the ax falls, > while one good partner who stayed by your side could save > your life. This last sentence is true. However, just like all the other safety equipment discussed here, your partner may fail you. It's best to carry a spare 8^) >Why not the same interest in safety? I think there is a strong interest in safety here. My perception is different, and could probably be summed up as: With all the interest in paddling gear and safety, why almost no focus on the paddling 'experience'? In a typical week we see 100 messages or more on safety or gear. If we are very very lucky, we might see one trip report...but probably not. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote: > > Tomckayak_at_aol.com writes: > > > The measure of a Sea kayaker is not the extreme conditions he/she can paddle > > in but the rough conditions they can still assist others. [snip] > I love it!! Your force-rating for rescue skills strikes me as a powerfully > poignant way of expressing an all-too-frequent problem. [snip] > > If your partners rated Force 6 paddle skills and Force 3 rescue skills, they > also rated Force 0 pod skills for their demonstrated lack of concern for your > safety and welfare. I wonder if those individuals would walk off and leave > their friends, mothers and children alone and unsupported in a dark Los > Angeles alley if they could not, or would not keep up? > > I would hazard to estimate that most paddlers are at least 2 or 3 Beaufort > numbers lower in pod skills (those skills relating to rescues, group dynamics, > leadership, followership, and other areas needed to qualify as a positive, > contributing addition to a paddling pod) than in their raw paddling skills. [snip] > Tom, although it took some time, I'm glad you replied to this old thread. [snip] > I know > that this subject has probably been drummed to death before, but how many > responses do we routinely see about Canadian Ballast and GPS's and other > equipment? Why not the same interest in safety? [snip] > Off-line I've been corresponding lately with a friend in Northern Cal who is > going through the agony of discovering that her paddling group cannot be > depended upon. Though they say they are committed to the safety of one- > another, they routinely lose contact with individuals, spontaneously split > into smaller groups which leaves less-qualified paddlers grouped together and > unsupported, and make the assumption that someone who has split off has done > so deliberately and couldn't be having any problems.[snip] > > The protocols stated in the other posts on this thread are all well known and > valid. And if they work in your group, then I say "congratulations" but I > also think you either have a very sophisticated and caring group, or a looser > interpretation of what constitutes proper pod behavior than I. [snip] > What say you all? What real experiences have you had that tell the > difference? Little, because I avoid group paddles, having had too much exposure to the problems you describe, Harold, when I lead trips in the mountains. [Excuse my snipping of your post -- hope I did not obscure your message.] I think there is a "herd mentality" associated with loosely-organized groups which leads to the problems you describe. This mentality needs to be aggressively resisted if club paddles and the like are to avoid degenerating into "each for his own" when the stuff hits the fan. I am not hopeful that most clubs can effectively combat the problem, because there is a significant minority of paddlers (mostly in the novitiate class) who are content to allow the presence of a herd to lull them into a sense of security: "Oh, it's OK I don't have a paddle float -- somebody else will have one ..." to cite just one statement I have heard before. Harold, I suspect there is no substitute for taking on the responsibility *yourself* for making sure the "pod" functions well. In this case that "yourself" is each one of us. It is easier to be a good pod member, it should be emphasized, if you are prepared for the conditions you meet, and feel confident about your own abilities and knowledge. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Woody wrote; (Large SNIP) --- >With all the interest in paddling gear and safety, why almost no focus on >the paddling 'experience'? In a typical week we see 100 messages or more on >safety or gear. If we are very very lucky, we might see one trip >report...but probably not. Possibly because the topic was beaten to death some time back. For a discussion on gear related safety versus experience and attitude related safety you might find my web pages at http://home.ican.net/~735769/safety.htm worth a read. Particularly Dr. Wilde's paper. Even experience has its drawbacks. As my tennis instructor told me many years ago "Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. Repeating the same old mistakes just reinforces the same old mistakes. " The attitude towards risk often determines the experience. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> >With all the interest in paddling gear and safety, why almost no focus on > >the paddling 'experience'? In a typical week we see 100 messages or more > on > >safety or gear. If we are very very lucky, we might see one trip > >report...but probably not. > > Possibly because the topic was beaten to death some time back. For a > discussion on gear related safety versus experience and attitude related > safety you might find my web pages at > http://home.ican.net/~735769/safety.htm worth a read. Particularly Dr. > Wilde's paper. Opps, 'experience' was a bad word choice. This late in the day I'm having a hard time finding a different word. What if I put the quotes in a different place like: With all the interest in paddling gear and safety, why almost no focus on 'the paddling experience'? Trying to capture why we paddle in the first place, just don't know what word to use. Some paddle for the beauty of nature, others the solitude, others have even different reasons or several reasons. What ever that is, is the word I should have used... Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Oddly enough, the worst problems I've had with groups falling apart in bad conditions were due to incorrigible intermediate paddlers, not novice or beginner paddlers. In tough situations, the beginners seem to follow instructions, as long as they're not asked to do anything beyond their capabilities. I have not found a fix for this problem, other than to avoid paddling with people who have consistently refused to stay in a group. I do think that novice paddlers do tend to abdicate responsibility when it comes to making decisions like whether or not to paddle or whether plans should be altered due to bad weather. I think this is partially the fault of the more experienced paddlers in the group who tend to assume a particular course of action is the obvious choice, or to simply make decisions for the group because it's easier. I find this problem easier to work with, by doing things like making someone the lead paddler for the day, navigator for the day, etc. Especially helpful is the breakfast forecast check, which everyone can listen to and then discuss the plan for the day. I ask people to come up with different options like changing to a more sheltered course, waiting out the bad weather, and polling people as to what they want to do. If I have to, I ask leading questions like "hey bob what do you think about doing that 17 mile crossing in 25 knot winds?" Obviously when I do this I'm still taking more responsibility than others in the group but at least it increases input from other paddlers. It seems one thing that just does not work is asking the group directly "is everyone ok paddling in these conditions?" The folks who are NOT comfortable never seem to speak up, which is understandable I suppose. I'd certainly be interested in hearing about how others deal with these problems. Sarah Ohmann >When the fight or flight instinct kicks in, I imagine it is very very >difficult to overcome the flight tendency. Especially if you have no >personal ties to your group, or your confidence in your own skills under >pressure is in doubt. >The extreme danger here is really to the novice in these conditions. The >novice, under the notion that the group will keep him/her out of trouble, is >more likely to attempt a paddle beyond their skills. They probably would >never try such a paddle alone. So when the group breaks down under stress, >the novice is suddenly way in over their head (no pun intended). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I weighed in a month or so ago on group paddling, the dynamics, and how to keep both fast and slow paddlers happy. And so did others on this list server. As John Winters reminded us, an even more lengthy discussion occured last year and his excellent points are on his website. So I found it strange that someone was chiding the group for not talking about this phenomenon. Also, I was surprised on how several individuals who swear they never paddle with groups, seemed ready to spout off about group paddling. There is no question that paddling alone or with just one or two other like-minded individuals has its appeal. Paddling with groups can be a real pain in the ass. At one time, around 10 years ago I was leading some 15-20 trips a year. Sometimes they would go smoothly but other times they could be hectic. I tend to avoid leading trips these days. The hardest thing was, and is, keeping people reasonably together for the conditions faced. So many paddlers hit the water and suddenly do a marine version of running amouk. They take off as soon as people have put in and hardly ever look back or keep in contact. As the quick ones paddle off they tend to get the less strong people to try to keep up with them and then these weaker individual peter out and are pretty much wrecked for the rest of the trip. I made a number of suggestions earlier about how to handle this but they don't always work. Quite often a group paddle turns out to be more of a group put-in than a group trip. The only thing that changes this is some near miss or mino catastrope. Nothing like that to get everyone together and staying together. I have often thought of staging one to straigthen out the group. :-) ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote: > Also, I was surprised on how several individuals > who swear they never paddle with groups, seemed ready to spout off about > group paddling. So those that qualify their response by admitting to be a solo paddler shouldn't have an opinion on the subject? I would think that lack of group paddling experience does not mean lack of group dynamics experience. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Woodard wrote: > > Ralph wrote: > > > Also, I was surprised on how several individuals > > who swear they never paddle with groups, seemed ready to spout off about > > group paddling. > > So those that qualify their response by admitting to be a solo paddler > shouldn't have an opinion on the subject? I would think that lack of group > paddling experience does not mean lack of group dynamics experience. It's different. While some aspects of group dynamics can apply to group paddling, I think unique things happen on the water that make the experience not analogous to other group situations. It has to do with movement of the water, differences in boats, skills, etc. That is why I think one who does not paddle with groups is probably not in a good position to comment. ralph diaz > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote: > It's different. While some aspects of group dynamics can apply to group > paddling, I think unique things happen on the water that make the > experience not analogous to other group situations. It has to do with > movement of the water, differences in boats, skills, etc. That is why I > think one who does not paddle with groups is probably not in a good > position to comment. Interesting perspective Ralph. I can see (and agree) that advice/comments not based on first hand experience be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not certain that I would agree that they should be excluded from commenting. For me, every person's input is an additional data point for me to consider. Ultimately the decision to paddle in a group or not is mine. Maybe I give people too much credit. If I state up front I'm a novice and have never paddled in a group, I would expect the reader to not apply much (if any) weight to my comments. But are they better left unsaid, or is it better to speak up to give the experienced paddlers the opportunity to point out the errors in my thinking? By keeping my comments to myself I think I could become my own worst enemy. However, if people treat my comments with the same weight as someone with a vast amount of group experience such as yourself, that is absolutely a bad thing. So where is the medium? My thinking on this goes far beyond the group paddle thread, since it should equally apply to almost every other subject I've seen discussed here. What say you all? No previous experience required to comment 8^) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
My thinking on this goes far beyond the group paddle thread, since it should equally apply to almost every other subject I've seen discussed here. What say you all? No previous experience required to comment 8^) In my opinion, it would be absolutely ridiculous for the inexperienced not to comment! Personally, I'm another who does not paddle in groups. I'm usually alone or with one other person. Every once in a while we might number three. It's not that I'm anti-group or anything like that, but I live in an area [Montgomery, Alabama] where there is very little interest in sea kayaking. Hence, a lot of solo paddling on local lakes and monthly sojourns to the Florida panhandle with a friend, my brother or one of my sons. But just because I'm not a subject-matter expert on group paddling doesn't mean I don't have any understanding or expectations of what a responsible paddling group should provide every member [as outlined and agreed upon by group members prior to the start of a paddle]. And one would hope I and other "inexperienced" people like me could still express those understandings and expectations on this list. Seems to me that is one of the many benefits of a list such as Paddlewise -- the addition of a bit of obectivity to such a discussion. Jim Tynan Pike Road AL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I am new to this list. I have read as much of it as I have time for and I do think I miss things that would be very helpful so when there is a repeat of something like this that I have missed I'm glad folks want to rehash it. I have learned from this part of the ongoing discussion and I appreciate the time and thought people seem to have put into it. Being one who has little experience with groups of paddlers I would expect that my input might give the leaders some idea of how I am seeing things and how best to include my needs/understanding of the situation into their leadership. If I give you my view then you can tell me where I may be right on or off target. It might also bring the "experienced" paddlers a reminder of the way they saw things when they were Inexperienced in group paddling. Of course then, some people are experts out of intelectual rather than experiential knowledge. Joan Spinner Ralph wrote: > > It's different. While some aspects of group dynamics can apply to group > > paddling, I think unique things happen on the water that make the > > experience not analogous to other group situations. It has to do with > > movement of the water, differences in boats, skills, etc. That is why I > > think one who does not paddle with groups is probably not in a good > > position to comment. > > Interesting perspective Ralph. I can see (and agree) that advice/comments > not based on first hand experience be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not > certain that I would agree that they should be excluded from commenting. For > me, every person's input is an additional data point for me to consider. > Ultimately the decision to paddle in a group or not is mine. > > Maybe I give people too much credit. If I state up front I'm a novice and > have never paddled in a group, I would expect the reader to not apply much > (if any) weight to my comments. But are they better left unsaid, or is it > better to speak up to give the experienced paddlers the opportunity to point > out the errors in my thinking? By keeping my comments to myself I think I > could become my own worst enemy. However, if people treat my comments with > the same weight as someone with a vast amount of group experience such as > yourself, that is absolutely a bad thing. So where is the medium? > > My thinking on this goes far beyond the group paddle thread, since it should > equally apply to almost every other subject I've seen discussed here. What > say you all? No previous experience required to comment 8^) > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Group Paddling I have this to say about that. If you are going to paddle with a organized group you should stay with the group. If you want to paddle alone then don't paddle with a group. Safety in numbers does not always apply to Group Paddling because of the vast differents in experience of the paddlers.When you are a new paddler and paddle with a group you will learn quicker from the combined knowledge of the group. Later on if you do not like to paddle with a mixed experienced group I would rather you did not paddle with them at all instead of leaving the group because they are to slow. As a trip leader I have enough problems to worry about and don't need a paddler splitting the group up.Most of the times it will be the more experienced paddler that you depend on to help in a emergency that is the one that leaves. Do every one a favor and paddle alone or with a couple of friends if you don't want to be part of a group or stay with them. Is the topic beat to death yet? Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > It's different. While some aspects of group dynamics can apply to group > paddling, I think unique things happen on the water that make the > experience not analogous to other group situations. It has to do with > movement of the water, differences in boats, skills, etc. That is why I > think one who does not paddle with groups is probably not in a good > position to comment. Well, Ralph, as usual, I agree with you, but I also think you are off the mark a little. There are lots of "challenging" outdoor pursuits which require mastery of the same group dynamics mandated to run a successful group paddle. That's where I think you are off the mark a little. OTOH, I agree that paddling on the water is more susceptible to "group scatter," inasmuch as the "path" is not plain, as it is in trail-walking, and the hazards are not (usually) obvious, as they are in glacier-climbing or alpinism. See short resume below the sig. Note it does NOT include "leader of all-comers group paddles." I work in an academic setting, controlled by the dictates of public funding, and I'll tell you, it is AWFUL to try to enforce/ensure good safety practices in today's overly-PC academic climate. It is tough enough to keep students safe in a chemistry laboratory. I won't even think of the difficulty in a paddling the BC coast context. It would make my head hurt. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -- retired climber, sometime wilderness skier, long-time teacher of laboratory science, and several-time mountain guide *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> What say you all? No previous experience required to comment 8^) sometimes i go to conferences. some of the presenters are real boring...some years ago, i asked a university professor how he could listen to all that stuff... he replied, that he listened to those folks who listened to him... i hope that folks post regardless of their previous paddling experience.... i got a delete key... i regret that some pay extra for expanded emails. =========== *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/30/99 7:27:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, woodardr_at_tidalwave.net writes: << When the fight or flight instinct kicks in, I imagine it is very very difficult to overcome the flight tendency. Especially if you have no personal ties to your group, or your confidence in your own skills under pressure is in doubt. >> I agree. I've been there - scared, anxious and ready to run. What makes the choice of flight so wrong (outside of one's moral obligation to others) is the fact that anyone can experience problems. So those who fractionate the group by paddling away from their companions may endanger themselves as much or more than the bulk of the group. They may blindly think they are rushing toward safety, but they may actually be fleeing their only source of help. But then, fear and reason don't usually paddle in the same pod. <<With all the interest in paddling gear and safety, why almost no focus on the paddling 'experience'? >> Good question. On the other hand, when paddling with a group, I find that my comfort level weighs heavily upon my level of enjoyment -- my personal paddling experience. And the degree of group cohesiveness, combined with the group's approach to safety, seriously affects my comfort level -- usually far more than the prevailing conditions. So anything I get from this list that helps me improve pod cohesiveness could help improve all my future experiences. In fact, when Kirby Stevens started this thread, it was with a poignant and seemingly exasperated request for feedback because his enjoyment was being hampered by bad group cohesiveness. Group paddling should be as much about looking out for one-another as it is about sharing the joys of paddling. Harold So. Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
To the corporate memory of PaddleWise --- I have a small drybag, 7" by 24", with the standard roll down drybag non-seal. Can't remember where I got if, and have gone through all the catalogs I can find to buy a few more. Anybody ever see really small diameter drybags --- about four inch diameter --- around for sale? (They're the only drybags that will go through my four inch deck plate "hatches".) Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: > > To the corporate memory of PaddleWise --- I have a small drybag, > 7" by 24", with the standard roll down drybag non-seal. Can't > remember where I got if, and have gone through all the catalogs I > can find to buy a few more. Anybody ever see really small > diameter drybags --- about four inch diameter --- around for sale? > (They're the only drybags that will go through my four inch deck > plate "hatches".) Wow. A 4-inch hatch is a really small opening, Joq. I could not locate anything in a 7 inch width (when FLAT). Best I could do was the Summer 1999 Sierra West catalog, which has Seattle Sport dry bags in the XS variety (10 x 19; 300 cu in). They will have a nominal 6 inch diameter when FILLED. Their 800 number: 713-4534; their Web site: http://www.sierratradingpost.com/index.cfm Unlike others on the list, who have had difficulty with availability from SW, I have almost never had a reject. The Web site seems to be up to date on availability. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I bought some govt surplus drybags used for gas masks that I use to fill small spaces. They roll and have a snap closure and cost $.50 each. cu -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net] On Behalf Of Jack Martin Sent: Friday, April 02, 1999 12:04 AM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Drybags To the corporate memory of PaddleWise --- I have a small drybag, 7" by 24", with the standard roll down drybag non-seal. Can't remember where I got if, and have gone through all the catalogs I can find to buy a few more. Anybody ever see really small diameter drybags --- about four inch diameter --- around for sale? (They're the only drybags that will go through my four inch deck plate "hatches".) Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>I bought some govt surplus drybags used for gas masks that I use to fill >small spaces. They roll and have a snap closure and cost $.50 each. >cu I just got some of these recently from a paddler in SC who had them in boxes of 10 for $19.10 including shipping. Your price is better but nonetheless they worked out OK. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hey, I LOVE group paddling. I can beg-borrow wine, bread, chips, water, rope, salsa, TP, and maybe even a paddle and dry-bag or two on a really good day from a really good group. It's fantastic ! I don't have to gather fire wood or wash dishes, or heat water or especially waste my time listening to weather reports. Around the camp I really don't have to do anything, but it is on the water where I really shine. I am a great paddler with staunch opinions about everything on technique, gear, history, lore, and legend. Don't worry, I'll tell you what you're doing wrong and how it has to be done ...every glaring stumble you make on the learning curve I'll point out a better way. Now watch this ....hey, there's a squall line getting pretty close ....Keep up now and let's make for land. If we get separated, I'll see you in camp. By the way, my one fault is that I snore like a hardwood sawmill. Peyton (Louisiana) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Some years ago, I was a novice racquetball player and would play with a guy who was as novice as I was. He eventually hurt his knee and I had to find others to play with. I found a few folks who were much better than I but who tolerated me in the court (I think as cannon fodder). But the idea was, they let me play with them. As I did, I got better and better until I actually could play with them. I see the group paddling issue as a similar one. If, as a novice, I only paddle alone, I will probably be doing something wrong that would likely be pointed out to me if I went in a group. Now, part of my makeup is that I prefer to watch people with better skills than I possess and then try to emulate those skills. I'm not going to get that paddling alone but once I acquire that skill set, my solitary paddling should be safer, faster, more efficient, etc. So, I see a value to the group which I could transfer to when I paddle alone. Larry Mills Department of Redundancy Department *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/31/99 12:26:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << I weighed in a month or so ago on group paddling, the dynamics, and how to keep both fast and slow paddlers happy. And so did others on this list server. As John Winters reminded us, an even more lengthy discussion occured last year and his excellent points are on his website. >> I'm sorry if my observation seemed offensive. I did mention that about nine people responded, but I was remiss in thanking you all. If my whine sank to the level of a chide, it was because I was hoping to get others (besides the usual commentators) to pitch in. I agree with Woody in this -- the more comments and questions, the more food for thought, and the greater chance that something new and revelationary might come out of the discussion. I would love to hear from those who may have found themselves on the "wrong" side of this issue, for example, if they could help us understand *why* it is so hard to keep people together. It is only those who have been there that can tell us why they at some point abandoned or outran their group, what misconception did they have? what fear? what lack of skill? As an individual, as well as an instructor and guide, I truly believe that all the people I have paddled with were decent, caring, intelligent and wanting to do the "right" thing. What I don't understand is why it doesn't always work out that way, and what I might have possibly done or said, that I didn't, to have made the difference -- to have made things go just a little smoother. Ralph, I do appreciate the suggestions that you posted about controlling group size. I was well aware of most, but they always bear repeating as reminders. And you have, by reposting them, touched many who may have never heard them before. I wasn't on the list last year when the "beating to death" took place, but I have accessed the articles on John Winters page that John and Richard Culpepper so kindly pointed me towards. Like Tom and Bill and Dave, I have often avoided paddling with groups outside of "work". Club paddles seem to suffer from a political correctness that says nobody can be refused, or that the paddle must always be downgraded to the least common denominator, with no limits on how low that denominator can go; and buddy-groups seem to suffer from terminal informality. But I do need to lead groups at work, and I get tired of paddling alone other times. So, like Sarah, I'd like to hear about how others deal with the various problems we associate with group paddling, in the hopes of infusing more enjoyment and safety in them. Harold So. Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>I'd like to hear about how others deal with the various problems we associate with group paddling, in the hopes of infusing more enjoyment and safety in them. Group Paddling 101. Case 1. A recent trip report that can be picked apart with no offense taken...live and learn. Early March 99, 50's air temp, water temp low 40's . Tidal river, no wind. launch from a site with warm showers available. An informal group of 3: a kayaking fellow 1 yrs experience who is a very strong paddler, but who has little background of safety issues; a longtime paddler who should know something; and an expert who knows alot and has all the skills. The expert is paddling a racing style canoe, the other 2 are in 18 ft touring kayaks. i'm the guy who should know something. this will be a fast paddle, no one is wearing any cold water protection. during the launch, i see that both kayakers are wearing PFD's, however the canoe guy doesn't his on.. i start to comment, but since he's still going between car and boat, i suppose that he will put it on because he always wears one. two miles up the river, the wake riding canoeist makes a bad move behind the novice and rolls the canoe. the boat floods with water and is about 100 ft downstream of the swimmer who is heading for shore...now we realize that he isn't wearing his PFD, nor is it in his boat. he finds a cypress tree stump about 400 ft from shore and stands on it so that he is only kneee deep in water. the canoe has no ropes attached. we aren't carrying any lines. the canoe is covered with 303 and thus very slippery. my attempt to hold on to it and drain water fails. during the next 4 or 5 minutes, we bring the boat to the fellow - who is able to get it set to re-enter. the two kayaks come along port side and brace as he gets into the boat... planning to head back, he tells us to continue the 10 mile loop. we protest. he insists. i give him a power bar, he has water. i ask and he replies that he has his car keys and warm clothes. since i did a swim like this a few years ago, i think that he will be warm while paddling and become very cold when he reaches shore, however the warm shower will take care of him. so, the group splits..... we continue, he heads back. ================== if you like, arm chair review that outing, and please include your thoughts as to *where do we next see him?* will i really attach my name to this? shamefully bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:10 AM 4/2/99 -0500, Larry Bliven wrote: > >>I'd like to hear about how others deal with the various problems we >associate with group paddling, in the hopes of infusing more enjoyment and >safety in them. Howdy Larry et al! Well, since you asked . . . 1) I would have felt obliged to escort said wet paddler back to the put-in; if he screwed the pooch and went for a swim when dry and warm, what's gonna happen now that he is wet, cold, and potentially hypothermic. Paddling demi-god or not, everyone has an off day now and then. 'Sides, 2 miles isn't all that far, you could most likely still complete your planned loop. 2) I always always always carry a change of clothes and a jacket, even in warm weather. Ain't nothing more miserable than wet clothes IMHO. If Mr. Wetmann had something to change into, (or, for that matter, if any of you had gear close to the right size) you would have been back on your way in a few minutes, plus the inevitable goose-bumps, howling, and thrashing associated with this process are fairly entertaining . . . 3) I certainly don't always wear the ol' PFD. I stow it where I can get to it easily if needed, and have practised getting into it while in the water. However, if the conditions start to deteriorate it goes on PDQ. 4) Here's a plug for the new-age outerwear. The polar fleece pants and jacket I have retain very little wetness. After a swim you can peel 'em off, swing 'em around your head a time or two to dislodge most of the water, and put 'em right back on. A goretex jacket (and rainpants if it's really chilly) on top and you're good to go. In cool weather I wear them; in warmer weather they live at the bottom of my drybag. And finally, a contribution to the discussion in general. From years of riding enduro and other off-road motorbike adventures, I have found it advantageous to have the most experienced individual be the "sweep" rider. (er, paddler in this case) Then if the situation warrants it, he/she is in the best position to render encouragement and assistance. Also, how about having everyone carry one of those REALLY LOUD whistles to attract attention in time of need? Well, theres my $.02 (and then some, but words are cheap . . .)! ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Larry Bliven [mailto:foxhill_at_shore.intercom.net] > Sent: Friday, April 02, 1999 2:11 AM > > Group Paddling 101. Case 1. > > A recent trip report that can be picked apart with no offense > taken...live > and learn. snip > > the canoe has no ropes attached. we aren't carrying any > lines. the canoe is > covered with 303 and thus very slippery. my attempt to hold > on to it and > drain water fails. during the next 4 or 5 minutes, we bring > the boat to the > fellow - who is able to get it set to re-enter. the two > kayaks come along > port side and brace as he gets into the boat... > > planning to head back, he tells us to continue the 10 mile > loop. we protest. > he insists. i give him a power bar, he has water. i ask and > he replies that > he has his car keys and warm clothes. since i did a swim like > this a few > years ago, i think that he will be warm while paddling and > become very cold > when he reaches shore, however the warm shower will take care of him. > > so, the group splits..... we continue, he heads back. > ================== A situation like this is pretty clear-cut in my mind. Whether the group is formal or informal, whether I'm the leader or not, I would never abandon a paddling/hiking partner who decided that it was time to turn around and head for "home". (Maybe that's a little strongly stated and I'm sure that we can all think up scenarios which would challenge it, but I'm standing by it in this case) It's simply a matter of taking responsibility when the situation starts getting bad - somebody has to do it! Making an assumption that the individual will be all right suffers from the same problem that all other assumptions suffer from....you may be right, but then again, you may be wrong. I opt to err on the side of caution. If there has been a mishap and an individual actually feels bad or worried enough that they feel they need to head for home I consider them to be paddling with a "handicap" - and that means that while they may not actually need assistance, it certainly would be a good idea to make sure that it's available. The decision to paddle solo is one that many of us make quite rationally and with an acknowledgement of the attendant risks and rewards. The decision to paddle solo because you don't feel capable of making the rest of the trip is.....well, in my mind, slightly less than rational. Dave Seng the safety nut in Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: Dave Seng the safety nut in Juneau, Alaska > A situation like this is pretty clear-cut in my mind. Whether the group is formal or informal, whether I'm the leader or not, I would never abandon a paddling/hiking partner who decided that it was time to turn around and head for "home". ================= Dave, your response to Group Paddling 101. Case 1 seems correct to me. Informal and formal group paddling hopefully means helping each other and thinking through the circumstances. my decision not paddle back with the waterlogged fellow was somewhat affected by my not wanting to injure his pride... (he was an expert who had taken an unexpected swim.) i need to improve people skills so that he would welcome us paddling back for a change of clothes. we next saw him on the river doing the 10 miles solo. sometimes we got to think not as solo paddlers, but rather as leaders... and do the best that we can. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: John Kortis >I will attempt one last time...........<snip> ========= hi John, if you have read my posts, then you know that i have a lot to learn. would you please take the time to tell us about a particular outing that was memorable for you? bye bye bliven.... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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