It has been suggested to me that one can save weight in a Kevlar boat by foregoing the pigment in the hull. Is this true? Just how much weight does the pigment add? Are there any other pros and cons to ordering a Kevlar boat I should know about? I guess I really don't know that much about Kevlar. Thanks for the help, Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> It has been suggested to me that one can save weight in a Kevlar boat by >foregoing the pigment in the hull. Is this true? Just how much weight does the >pigment add? Are there any other pros and cons to ordering a Kevlar boat I >should know about? I guess I really don't know that much about Kevlar. > It is not the pigment that get left out but the gel coat. The gel coat is the layer of pigmented resin on the surface that provides the shiny gloss etc. This layer is typically applied about 0.0015" thick and weighs roughly (varies with pigment weights) 0.054 lbs per square foot (according to one gel coat supplier). Gel coat has little structural value. Better protection for the laminate can be obtained by painting with one of the two part marine polyurethane paints at less than 30% of the weight. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Scott, > It has been suggested to me that one can save weight in a Kevlar boat by >foregoing the pigment in the hull. Is this true? Yup, but it doesn't work exactly like you think it does. The pigment is usually contained in some thickened resin, the part they call "gelcoat," applied to the outside of the boat. A typical sea kayak would probably have about three pounds of gelcoat on it. The gelcoat acts as a cosmetic and sacrificial layer only, adds no structural strength for it's weight. If you are into cosmetics you'll want the gelcoat, but most of us buy boats to paddle, not just look at. Gelcoat is on both fiberglass and Kevlar boats. What it does is take the scrapes and bumps that the strength members of the boat (fiberglass and Kevlar would suffer if it wasn't there. In the process it can gouge, star crack, and chip, and flake off, etc. That's better than the strength members taking that abuse, but the glass and Kevlar don't abuse as easily as the not strong gelcoat. Gelcoat also looks pretty until it scratches and starcracks, and chips.... which is soon if you bought the boat to use, and not just look at. Maybe some people take better care of their boats than I do? (almost certainly) Clear gelcoat is available and often used in Kevlar boats to let that expensive Kevlar show through. Sort of like the price tags on Minnie Pearl's hats (or am I showing my age here?). It does the same thing, protects the strength members underneath (for a while), but doesn't look as pretty cause you're looking through it at the stuff underneath. Clear gelcoat should have ultraviolet inhibitors in it as Kevlar is UV sensitive. Not bad though. The surface of the Kevlar fibers darken with UV exposure, which then blocks UV from getting to the interior of each fiber. It's a surface phenomenon only and us manufacturers don't worry about the resulting insignificant structural losses, just the cosmetic effects, which usually does take a few years. Boats with a "skin coat" rather than a gelcoat are available, though not all manufacturers make them. That's where the boat is made without any gelcoat at all. The Kevlar or the fiberglass is the outside of the boat. Often more expensive cause the manufacturer has to do a really pretty job of making the boat (pigmented gelcoat hides errors). Same with clear gelcoats, though. The resin used for the skin coat can be pigmented, usually at an insignificant weight penalty, though it seldome hides the Kevlar very well, and may be pretty ugly if the Kevlar is the outside structural fabric. That's a color choice. Ask the manufacturer of the boats you are considering what the options are. Good luck, Hank Hays Lightning Paddles *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The gelcoat is not required, but you don't want to forego pigment all together. Kevlar breaks down when exposed to UV. The pigment will provide protection. Nick At 7:14 AM -0500 3/22/99, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > It has been suggested to me that one can save weight in a Kevlar boat by >foregoing the pigment in the hull. Is this true? Just how much weight does the >pigment add? Are there any other pros and cons to ordering a Kevlar boat I >should know about? I guess I really don't know that much about Kevlar. > >Thanks for the help, > >Scott >So.Cal. >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:14 AM 3/22/99 EST, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > It has been suggested to me that one can save weight in a Kevlar boat by >foregoing the pigment in the hull. Is this true? Just how much weight does the >pigment add? Are there any other pros and cons to ordering a Kevlar boat I >should know about? I guess I really don't know that much about Kevlar. The folks at Wenonah tell me that their gel-coat process adds about 6lb to the weight of a 16.5ft canoe. This is not the same thing as adding pigment to the otherwise relatively clear epoxy, which I wouldn't expect to add noticeably to the overall weight. There is some argument regarding kevlar deterioration with exposure to UV, which the gel-coat should largely prevent. I prefer not to carry the extra weight, and so store my boat in the garage. For comparison, my Wenonah C1W solo boat with an ultra-light core layup, aluminum trim, and no gel-coat weighs 32.5lb according to my NIST traceable bathroom scale ;-). M'ladys Wenonah Prism has the flex-core kevlar layup with a white gel-coat but is otherwise very similar. It weighs 43lb on the same irrefutably accurate scale. I feel that there are two advantages to kevlar. One, for the same weight fabric, kevlar is probably 50% stronger than fiberglass. This means that a kevlar boat can have less fabric and hence less weight. Some manufacturers will offer boats with an "expedition" kevlar layup. These boats have more or heavier fabric layers in them and so weigh about the same as a fiberglass layup, but are substantially stronger. Two, if you do stress the kevlar lay-up enough to buckle it, the epoxy will crack, but the fabric generally stays intact and temporary repairs are easily made with duct tape. Often when fiberglass lay-ups buckle the fibers part and you are left with a hole. Also, for the same reason, kevlar layups are somewhat more resistant to puncture wounds. IMHO, unless you are greatly deterred by the 30-40% cost differential, by all means get a kevlar boat. My $.02, but hope it helps a bit. ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
How did you get he canoes in the bathroom? At 07:14 AM 3/22/99 EST, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > It has been suggested to me that one can save weight in a Kevlar boat by >foregoing the pigment in the hull. Is this true? Just how much weight does the >pigment add? Are there any other pros and cons to ordering a Kevlar boat I >should know about? I guess I really don't know that much about Kevlar. The folks at Wenonah tell me that their gel-coat process adds about 6lb to the weight of a 16.5ft canoe. This is not the same thing as adding pigment to the otherwise relatively clear epoxy, which I wouldn't expect to add noticeably to the overall weight. There is some argument regarding kevlar deterioration with exposure to UV, which the gel-coat should largely prevent. I prefer not to carry the extra weight, and so store my boat in the garage. For comparison, my Wenonah C1W solo boat with an ultra-light core layup, aluminum trim, and no gel-coat weighs 32.5lb according to my NIST traceable bathroom scale ;-). M'ladys Wenonah Prism has the flex-core kevlar layup with a white gel-coat but is otherwise very similar. It weighs 43lb on the same irrefutably accurate scale. I feel that there are two advantages to kevlar. One, for the same weight fabric, kevlar is probably 50% stronger than fiberglass. This means that a kevlar boat can have less fabric and hence less weight. Some manufacturers will offer boats with an "expedition" kevlar layup. These boats have more or heavier fabric layers in them and so weigh about the same as a fiberglass layup, but are substantially stronger. Two, if you do stress the kevlar lay-up enough to buckle it, the epoxy will crack, but the fabric generally stays intact and temporary repairs are easily made with duct tape. Often when fiberglass lay-ups buckle the fibers part and you are left with a hole. Also, for the same reason, kevlar layups are somewhat more resistant to puncture wounds. IMHO, unless you are greatly deterred by the 30-40% cost differential, by all means get a kevlar boat. My $.02, but hope it helps a bit. ByeBye! S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote: > > How did you get the canoes in the bathroom? > > At 07:14 AM 3/22/99 EST, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > > It has been suggested to me that one can save weight in a Kevlar boat by > >foregoing the pigment in the hull. Is this true? Just how much weight does > the > >pigment add? Are there any other pros and cons to ordering a Kevlar boat I > >should know about? I guess I really don't know that much about Kevlar. > > The folks at Wenonah tell me that their gel-coat process adds about 6lb to > the weight of a 16.5ft canoe. This is not the same thing as adding pigment > to the otherwise relatively clear epoxy, which I wouldn't expect to add > noticeably to the overall weight. There is some argument regarding kevlar > deterioration with exposure to UV, which the gel-coat should largely > prevent. I prefer not to carry the extra weight, and so store my boat in > the garage. > For comparison, my Wenonah C1W solo boat with an ultra-light core layup, > aluminum trim, and no gel-coat weighs 32.5lb according to my NIST traceable > bathroom scale ;-). I was wondering the same thing but I have been told that bathroom scales can be removed from their locale. Same with faucets. I am planning to bring one on my next camping trip so I can always have a steady supply of water. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:13 PM 3/22/99 -0500, Bob Denton wrote: >How did you get (t)he canoes in the bathroom? > Squished 'em up real good -n- stuffed 'em inna Duluth pack. Kevlar fabric still intact, tho. Now where's that duct tape? ;-) S. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Is a bathroom scale a bathroom scale if it's not in the bathroom? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Is a bathroom scale a bathroom scale if it's not in the bathroom? > If you're weighing the bathroom then it's a bathroom scale. But if it's in the bathroom while you're weighing then you have to subtract the weight of the scale.......... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 99-03-22 14:12:12 EST, you write: I was wondering the same thing but I have been told that bathroom scales can be removed from their locale. Same with faucets. I am planning to bring one on my next camping trip so I can always have a steady supply of water. ralph I have also heard that but have yet to try it. I do, however, bring along a car door so that if it gets too hot I can roll the window down. dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have only used one of those scales to weigh my bathroom. I prefer to weigh my kayak on my special kayak scale. I got it on the internet from some guy in Canada that designs kayaks. I also got a really good Canadian Ballast Rock scale from the same guy. I was also trying to figure out whether or not to put pigment in the gelcoat on my ballast rocks. If I don't, will there be any UV damage to the rocks? Larry Mills Department of Redundancy Department *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Larry Mills wrote: > ... > I was also trying to figure out whether or not to put pigment in > the gelcoat on my ballast rocks. If I don't, will there be any > UV damage to the rocks? Yes, without a doubt (unless you protect them in some other way). I once saw a pair of rather old ballast rocks in Manitoba that had only been covered with a clear skin coat. While they looked really nice (you could see the natural texture of the granite), the UV degradation was so bad that I was able to punch my finger into the rocks; they simply crumbled. So if you don't use gelcoat, make sure that they are painted, or that you add a UV inhibitor to the clear coat. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Dan Hagen wrote >So if you don't use gelcoat, make sure that they are painted, or that >you add a UV inhibitor to the clear coat. way off topic but it reminded me of an old Air Force saying: "if it moves, salute it, if it doesnt move, pick it up, if you cant pick it up, paint it" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:36:11 -0700 > From: Steve Jernigan <jernigan_at_chester.uccs.edu> > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kevlar question > > At 01:13 PM 3/22/99 -0500, Bob Denton wrote: > >How did you get (t)he canoes in the bathroom? > > > > Squished 'em up real good -n- stuffed 'em inna Duluth pack. Kevlar fabric > still intact, tho. > Now where's that duct tape? ;-) > S. Thus creating a "scale model" of said canoe? Chris *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Larry Mills <millsl_at_purchase.edu> To: 'Joe Pylka' <pylka_at_castle.net>; Bob Denton <BDenton_at_aquagulf.com>; rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>; Paddlewise (E-mail) <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: March 23, 1999 1:51 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Kevlar question >I was also trying to figure out whether or not to put pigment in >the gelcoat on my ballast rocks. If I don't, will there be any >UV damage to the rocks? Genuine Canadian Ballast Rocks do not exhibit any deleterious effects from UV . All date from Precambrian times and have been tested thoroughly. We have heard reports of rocks falling apart without UV inhibitors in the coating and on investigation discovered that these rocks originated in Silicone Valley and have built in obsolescence. We have no knowledge that Bill Gates is involved although some of the rocks have a geeklike appearance. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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