I don't remember who was asking about how to repair their 20 year old kayak, but Nick's board just had an excellent post on the use of polyester resins. Since I don't "think" epoxy resins were in use 20 years ago, it is most likely a polyester resin was used. http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/cgi-bin/KBbbs.cgi?read=11936 Hope this helps, Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:21 AM 3/7/99 -0500, Robert Woodard wrote: >I don't remember who was asking about how to repair their 20 year old kayak, >but Nick's board just had an excellent post on the use of polyester resins. >Since I don't "think" epoxy resins were in use 20 years ago, it is most >likely a polyester resin was used. I was using Epoxies back in the early 1970s to build whitewater canoes and kayaks. Was lots tougher than polyester, but polyester repairs would work, even on epoxy. The epoxy adheres better, though, so I'd recommend it. Some are better than others. Hank Hays Lightning Paddles *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank wrote; > >I was using Epoxies back in the early 1970s to build whitewater canoes and >kayaks. Was lots tougher than polyester, but polyester repairs would work, >even on epoxy. The epoxy adheres better, though, so I'd recommend it. >Some are better than others. OH dear. Now I have to admit to being older than Hank. I built my first epoxy boat in 1961. Designed for the Little America's Cup it was a 24' Styrofoam cored catamaran for Bill Cox. A lovely boat but the rig was too heavy and it finished second (I think) in the trials. In those days epoxies had some rather potent amino acids as curing agents. Apparently the body confuses the amino acids in the body with those of the epoxy and workers developed strong allergic reactions. (I am not sure this explanation is completely valid as no one took time to explain it in detail to the expendable shop workers). To make along story short, some workers developed severe allergic reactions. Others developed more serious complications. In my case, a love of boats. I also developed a minor skin problem under my school class ring. The ring fell off one day along with a lot of skin. Later (1970) I worked for a company building Ferro-cement boats. We used epoxy for everything. Because some epoxies cure in the presence of water we could bond new concrete to old by smearing on epoxy before applying the concrete. Great stuff that epoxy. Wish I could find it again but the fellow that formulated it has passed on to the great chemical plant in the sky. Epoxies these days have improved a lot and I suspect they have less toxicity than polyesters. Some epoxies will cure in the presence of wet polyester. At C&C Yachts we built a rather clever rudder using a stainless steel frame. To get the polyester shell to bond to the stainless we first coated the steel with epoxy and then applied the polyester while the epoxy was still wet. Everything cured together and it stuck as if we had used nothing but epoxy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: >OH dear. Now I have to admit to being older than Hank. > >I built my first epoxy boat in 1961. Designed for the Little America's Cup >it was a 24' Styrofoam cored catamaran for Bill Cox. Does a previous life in sailboating count? Not sure I'd admit it if that was the field I came from <grin>. Hank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank: I have a problem with my Lightning Paddle. It stuck together. I couldn't get it apart...now the paddle is stuck...solid. I can't get it either apart, or back together completely. Any suggestions? Thanks, Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have a problem with my Lightning Paddle. It stuck together. I couldn't get it apart...now the paddle is stuck...solid. I can't get it either apart, or back together completely. Any suggestions? ------------- Been there, done that, gave up. First year of sea kayaking I just threw my Werner paddle in the back of the truck without breaking it down. When I finally tried to break it down it was corroded together. After trying everything I could think of I started working on it with 2 vice grips. I got them to turn but was ripping up the fiberglass handle with the grips. While fooling with it the push button got stuck. I used a screw driver to punch it down and it jammed inside the paddle. I'm not a patient man so just duct taped the push button hole and have paddled that way since. I don't know if soaking the paddle for a 'long time' to loosen the salt would help or not. Vinegar helps break down some kinds of corrosion. Clyde Sisler http://csisler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> While fooling with it the push button got stuck. I used a screw driver to > punch it down and it jammed inside the paddle. I'm not a patient man so > just duct taped the push button hole and have paddled that way since. > > I don't know if soaking the paddle for a 'long time' to loosen the salt > would help or not. Vinegar helps break down some kinds of corrosion. Had a similar problem with mine a few months ago. Since I need it to break down in order for it to fit in my "system", I got another person to help. I had them hold one blade firmly with the button depressed, while I twisted the other. I was able to get it to rotate, and then pulled it apart. The problem, in my case, looked to be caused by really fine grains of sand that had worked their way in the joint. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Richard: I tried that too. My paddle is stuck solid. I'm sending it to Hank, maybe he can have some luck with it. Robert Richard wrote: >Had a similar problem with mine a few months ago. Since I need it >to break down in order for it to fit in my "system", I got another >person to help. I had them hold one blade firmly with the button >depressed, while I twisted the other. I was able to get it to rotate, >and then pulled it apart. The problem, in my case, looked to be >caused by really fine grains of sand that had worked their way in >the joint. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/13/99 7:35:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, rcline_at_onramp.net writes: << Lightning Paddle. It stuck together. I couldn't get it apart...now the paddle is stuck. >> I believe it is principally salt crystallization that causes most of the problems. 1. Poke the button inside as mentioned already, just to let water inside. 2. Soak it in the pool or other fresh water for a day, then try the 2-person / blades-under-the-armpit twist method described by Richard. 3. Soak it in vinegar as suggested. Wrap a rag around the joint and button and keep it saturated with vinegar (white cider probably cheapest -- flavor optional) for several hours. Or fashion a cup around the shaft with duct tape and a cut-up plastic bottle, then fill the cup with vinegar to cover the joint. Do the twist. 4. Still nothing? Yikes - now the scary one. Heat the female side of the joint to try to expand the tube, breaking the bond and winning a (very) slight clearance. You can try pouring boiling water on it, use a heat lamp, or (and this is the dangerous one) use a torch. This works best on aluminum shafts, but can work on glass or carbon shafts. The idea is to heat the outer tube quickly, before the inner tube can also warm, so heat-soaking doesn't do it. Hopefully someone will pitch in with info on how hot the composites need to get before they soften or catch fire. Be gentle. Good Luck, and no -- I won't buy your smoking, dripping epoxy-carbon paddle. :-) BTW - if you do get it apart, _never_ use any lubricant on the ferrule except perhaps a very light coat of silicone spray. Any oil-based product will gum up like crazy in salt water (can someone tell me why)?. If you already used the old 3-in-One oil, you may need to do like Clyde and turn it into a one- piece. Oh, of course you could also send it to the manufacturer and have them restore it for a fee. Hank - what say you? If you are listening, you must have some better suggestions than these. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Why vinegar? Harold wrote: >3. Soak it in vinegar as suggested. Wrap a rag around the joint and button >and keep it saturated with vinegar (white cider probably cheapest -- flavor >optional) for several hours. Or fashion a cup around the shaft with duct tape >and a cut-up plastic bottle, then fill the cup with vinegar to cover the >joint. Do the twist. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have several Werner Camano paddles (two for a double boat and one for a single). When I first got them, I noticed that sometimes paddlers were struggling to take theirs apart even when used just for the day. MIne sometimes took a little doing to take apart. A few weeks later I was at a symposium in which Werner had a rep. I asked about this and the rep from Werner said to do a bit of sanding of the male end of the connection. Just a little bit with very fine sandpaper for a smooth finish. I did and the paddles never again threaten to stick. I have had them 10 years and the connection remain free of sticking and the connection does not wobble when I paddle. Remember, this is advice to be taken carefully. You need to go about it gingerly. Too much sanding and the connection will get floppy. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Harold, >Hank - what say you? If you are listening, you must have some better >suggestions than these. I don't. I have not, and others I know who've tried it, also haven't had any luck with the soaking method, but it might work sometimes, given a long enough soak. It depends on what the "glue" is that is holding the thing together. We've actually not had a lot of problem with this, maybe a dozen people have complained about it so far in over 10 years we've built paddles. And (unfortunately?) it happens to every brand, not just ours. The ones I remember that we have gotten apart were mostly sand in the joint. Our prevention advice is to take the paddle apart after every paddling session. This condition normally happens after a long trip or after several shorter ones where the paddle wasn't taken apart between the trips. This allows the grit, salt or whatever the glue is to build up. Take the paddle apart after every paddling session and rinse the mating surfaces off. Store the paddle with it taken apart (and remember to take both halves when you go next time!). You (and others?) mentioned they thought sea salt was the problem. We've actually had more problems with whitewater kayak paddles than sea paddles. Beach sand when surfing is the biggest culprit. A few others that were *really* stuck where the boaters had done glacial rivers and the constant immersion in the silty water glued their paddles together. Most eventually got their paddles apart, but one guy in New Mexico (who traveled) just left it stuck together and later ordered another breakdown for his traveling trips. I contacted Robert privately when this thread started and recommended he send me the paddle (he replied he would). His is an Ultralight and they won't take lots of reefing on when trying to get the sections apart. I don't want him destroying a $350 paddle. If nothing else I can saw the ferrule out and install a new one. I'm gonna try a quick soak and the heat gun to see if either will work first. I'll try and remember to report what happens. Bug me if you don't hear. I hesitate to recommend Ralph's trick with fine sandpaper on an existing paddle, but if the fit is already *real* tight, you might be able to get away with it. Hank Hays Lightning Paddles *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/15/99 6:26:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, lhays_at_canby.com writes: << I don't. I have not, and others I know who've tried it, also haven't had any luck with the soaking method, but it might work sometimes, given a long enough soak.>> I've had all the methods I described work on various paddles. And then there are those which became permanent one-piecers. I try the methods in the order stated, escalating the violence until the joint or my will break. <<Our prevention advice is to take the paddle apart after every paddling session. >> Yes, absolutely the best way. I disassemble mine after most paddles. Its the thirty or so lurking in the trailer box that I often never mess with until someone tells me they can't feather the paddle they're using. Occasionally a customer will bring one in that has been together for many months and many paddles, or which has been lubed with petroleum products, and the violence again escalates. <> I've loosened many myself, but I prefer to use a "greenie" scrubbing pad. Takes a long time, but you don't overshoot so fast. Harold So Cal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank: Amazing an amazing thing happened this afternoon: The paddle is now unstuck. I bought the wood 2X2 to give it some protection than took it to a private P.O. to get a shipping package built for it. At the shipper's the shipper decided to give it one more try to get it apart.... AND IT the paddle just parted. I didn't get to try the vinegar soak, but I guess it needed some "tapping" or vibration to loosen it up. Anyway, now it's apart. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. Robert >I contacted Robert privately when this thread started and recommended he >send me the paddle (he replied he would). His is an Ultralight and they >won't take lots of reefing on when trying to get the sections apart. I >don't want him destroying a $350 paddle. If nothing else I can saw the >ferrule out and install a new one. I'm gonna try a quick soak and the heat >gun to see if either will work first. I'll try and remember to report what >happens. Bug me if you don't hear. > >I hesitate to recommend Ralph's trick with fine sandpaper on an existing >paddle, but if the fit is already *real* tight, you might be able to get >away with it. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
snip..... >>I hesitate to recommend Ralph's trick with fine sandpaper on an existing >>paddle, but if the fit is already *real* tight, you might be able to get >>away with it. I just had a thought regarding periodic cleaning of the mating surfaces now that they are apart. Rather than using fine sandpaper, why not try auto/marine polishing compound? I imagine that as long as the male and female surfaces are maintained at a shiny state (no oxidation) chemical bonding would be retarded. Whether or not you choose to apply a silicone spray would be a secondary choice my .02 jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Paddlewisers: >I just had a thought regarding periodic cleaning of the mating surfaces now >that they are apart. Rather than using fine sandpaper, why not try >auto/marine polishing compound? I imagine that as long as the male and >female surfaces are maintained at a shiny state (no oxidation) chemical >bonding would be retarded. Whether or not you choose to apply a silicone >spray would be a secondary choice Got your work cut out for you. Let me know how it works..... Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The biggest problem we seem to encounter with stuck paddles (although one often really never knows what the "glue" is) is paddlers lubricating their paddle joint with WD-40. Our line is that "WD40 and salt water make concrete!" Joanne -- Southwind Kayak Center, Inc. 17855 Sky Park Circle #A, Irvine, CA 92614 U.S.A. 949-261-0200 or 800-SOUTHWIND (800-768-8494) info_at_southwindkayaks.com doug_at_southwindkayaks.com joanne_at_southwindkayaks.com http://www.southwindkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I use 303 and/or a light silicone spray on the joins of my paddles. As for the bollixing water trick, I did that recently shift a joint, but assumed it was still a good bond. WRONG. The feather kept changing without me realizing until one of my friends noticed I had a 120 degree feather. Some duct tape did the trick for the rest of the trip, and my elbows stopped hurting! cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote: >I use 303 and/or a light silicone spray on the joins of my paddles. Bob: I tried to get 303 into the joint. It seems it didn't go. Best to apply before you put a tight fitting joint together. Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>BTW - if you do get it apart, _never_ use any lubricant on the ferrule except >perhaps a very light coat of silicone spray. Any oil-based product will gum >up like crazy in salt water (can someone tell me why)?. If you already used >the old 3-in-One oil, you may need to do like Clyde and turn it into a one- >piece. Oh, of course you could also send it to the manufacturer and have them >restore it for a fee. I've been using Vasoline for a couple of years for easy breakdown. I haven't paddled much the last two years so don't truly know how effective it is, but so far it seems to work like a charm. Brian. -- =============================== Brian Heifner Rational Software Corporation Email: bheifner_at_rational.com =============================== *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Brian H. wrote: > > >BTW - if you do get it apart, _never_ use any lubricant on the ferrule except > >perhaps a very light coat of silicone spray. [snip] > > I've been using Vasoline for a couple of years for easy breakdown. I haven't > paddled much the last two years so don't truly know how effective it is, but > so far it seems to work like a charm. Probably one of the worst choices one could make: eventually destroys the resin, and picks up sand big time. Silicone would be my choice. 303 probably won't hurt the joint. Re: heating the joint: an industrial strength heat gun is a much better choice than an open flame. To get the right kind of gun, find a buddy who makes RC airplanes and use the heat gun designed for shrinking the plastic covering on the models. Hair dryer won't cut it. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/15/99 12:24:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, rcline_at_onramp.net writes: << Why vinegar? >> Dunno, Robert. Didn't have dynamite, blow torch was out of fuel. Guess I figured acid disfiguration was the next-most suitable punishment. Sadly, it only loosened the join rather than scarring the paddle. Later, a chemistry teacher tried the same thing independently and found it worked even as his wife had me on the phone, frantically asking how to get her new paddle separated. Probably something I should remember from Chem 101. :-) Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Great stuff that epoxy. So for the lay person.....Should we consider epoxies interchangable with standard polyesters for general boat repairs? By epoxies I'm assuming items under the West or MAS labels, right? Will standard gel coat adhere to an epoxy based repair as well as a polyester based repair? Thanks Dennis *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dennis wrote; that epoxy. > >So for the lay person.....Should we consider epoxies interchangable with >standard polyesters for general boat repairs? No. For example, only certain epoxies will cure properly in the presence of water or at low temperatures. For in-the-field repairs polyester cannot replace the proper epoxy. If you must laminate to white oak, polyester just won't cut it. If you wnat a good colour match on a polyester boat, epoxy won't cut it unless you paint it. The bond between polyester and epoxy vaires with the type used. Best to use epoxy for all repairs on epoxy boats to be safe. >By epoxies I'm assuming items >under the West or MAS labels, right? West, East, MAS, System Three, Fiber-Glass- Evercoat, etc formulate epoxies. Most work fine if you follow the directions. Mosty boat builders go straight to the manufacturers (Ashland, Reichold, Ciba-Geigy etc.) for products tailored to suit their needs. Will standard gel coat adhere to an >epoxy based repair as well as a polyester based repair? Far better to use polyester throughout to assure no problems. Mixing and matching can cause problems that the pros know how to avoid. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: Lorraine&Dennis <Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Abused kayak > Great stuff that epoxy. >So for the lay person.....Should we consider epoxies interchangable with >standard polyesters for general boat repairs? The general folk wisdom appears to be to use whatever the boat was made of in the first place but if you don't know for sure, use epoxy. It also appears true that you can always stick epoxy onto older epoxy or polyesters, but polyesters will not stick to epoxies -- something to do with the surface characteristics of the cured stuff. Could be true. I had a decked C-1 someone had tried to repair with poly resin and I was able to remove it with my fingers and a good pull. Replaced it with FG & epoxy resin, never had a problem again. JP *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:35 AM 3/8/99 -0500, John Winters wrote: > >Later (1970) I worked for a company building Ferro-cement boats. We used >epoxy for everything. Because some epoxies cure in the presence of water we >could bond new concrete to old by smearing on epoxy before applying the >concrete. Great stuff that epoxy. Wish I could find it again but the fellow >that formulated it has passed on to the great chemical plant in the sky. > Check with FOX Industries, USA, or Sika, for thier Sikaflex product. These are similiar two-part epoxy products specifically formulated for the old concrete to new wet concrete bond and are routinely used in the construction industry. Greg Welker Current Designs Pisces CLC Cape Charles Modified West Wight Potter P-19 #448 "Good seamanship is using superior judgement to prevent the need to use superior skills." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Having recently consulted with Current Designs technical staff for a sail mast step installation on my Pisces, they recommended the use of Polyester resins rather than epoxy when bonding to their hulls. Greg Welker Current Designs Pisces CLC Cape Charles Modified West Wight Potter P-19 #448 "Good seamanship is using superior judgement to prevent the need to use superior skills." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank wrote; >Does a previous life in sailboating count? Not sure I'd admit it if that >was the field I came from <grin>. By their toys shall you know them. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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