I may be opening a can of worms but IMHO: When making a postive comment about a product or service, many people feel the need to offer a disclaimer that they gain no benefit from...., etc., etc. Is this really neccessary? Yes, I know about the sp*ns*n crap that went on before and no, I don't want blatant commercialism on the list either. There are manufactures, outfitters, dealers and the like on the list who take good care to maintain the integrity of the list. I can't help but feel they have a lot more to offer the list but don't because of this constraint. They're the ones making, using and selling a wider variety of products than any of us could ever hope to try. If one of them wants to make specific points or offer reasonable opinions or has a hard to find product in stock, so what? I personally would not be offended, particularily since I get the occassional email from them already. Just my 2 cents worth. Guess I'll go crawl back into the archives now and get out of the line of fire. BTW, the archives have grown quite a bit and I'm still in the D's of an alphabetically sorted archive list I was sent. Clyde Sisler http://csisler.com -----Original Message----- From: Matt Broze [mailto:mkayaks_at_oz.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 4:22 AM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] (paddlewise) Carbon paddles Bob Denton wrote: >I had a Lendal Carbon paddle with the crank shaft. I used it very gingerly >for 3 months and the blade snapped in half. I sent it back to GRO and their >response was basically...not our problem. Same with Lendal in the UK. I was >able to reuse the shaft but the blades are not replaceable. An employee of mine had both blades of his Lendal modified crank paddle delaminate for several inches at the tips and felt he had done nothing to cause this. When he called GRO he was asked if there were any nicks or scratches near the blade tip. When he said there were a few small ones he was told he had abused the paddle and the damage was therefore his fault. Needless to say I never sold another Lendal Paddle in our store and now won't sell any paddles that the manufacturer or distributor won't agree to stand solidly behind. I think Lendal is making a big mistake with Bob and my employee and should reconsider their policy for there own benefit. Instead of a loyal customer they create a dissatisfied customer with a story to tell and by blaming the customer they miss the opportunity to learn from them. In the short run this may save a few refunds but in the long run it will cost them in reputation, less sales and future quality problems. With Lightning Paddles if a paddle breaks under warrantee (and very occasionally a graphite one does) we tell the customer we will give them a full refund, a new paddle or if possible repair the damage--even if the damage was entirely their fault (such as accidentally backing over it with a car). All we ask for is an honest answer as to how the damage occurred and their understanding that a replacement paddle of the same model would not be guaranteed, so they should choose a stronger fiberglass paddle (and a partial refund) or be more careful with the replacement paddle this time. Lightning Ultralight customers almost always decide to get another Ultralight and be more careful. It is not as strong as the fiberglass ones but they love its lightweight and promise to carry a good quality spare. Lightning backs us up and repairs or replaces the paddle. By eliminating any incentive to lie we and Lightning will know if the paddle needs to be beefed up to prevent similar damage to paddles made in the future or it was just subject to unusual abuse that could be expected to break a paddle. These customers also have a story to tell but they become an even bigger fan and promoter of the product as a result. You can't buy this kind of advertising. Greg Barton also took very good care of a customer of ours who broke a graphite shaft Epic paddle in the surf (the most likely paddling location where a paddle might break--especially unfeathered ones). Greg replaced the shaft with a slightly huskier one and told the customer he was now a tester and to go ahead and use it in the surf again (something we warn lightweight graphite paddle users against) and if he broke that one he would replace it yet again. Our experience has been that surfing (invariably it happens while capsized and disoriented--and to an unfeathered paddle) or forcing (or slamming) the shaft against a hard edge are what can break a lightweight graphite paddle. Disclaimer: while we sold all the paddles mentioned we have no interest in any of the companies (beyond how they treat our customers). Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde wrote: > > There are manufactures, outfitters, dealers and the like on the list who > take good care to maintain the integrity of the list. I can't help but feel > they have a lot more to offer the list but don't because of this constraint. Ahh. Clyde... If they relly have anything to offer, they have certainly a better way. It is called *advertising*. Really: I am not willing to pay, or let my employer pay the telephone expenses of receiving promotional material via e-mail. The ice left the coast last Sunday... gotta gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Cheers, Ari Saarto "Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]" Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I think it would be positive to open Clyde's "can of worms" and discuss how commercially connected people could/should/might/shouldn't be involved in this list. Clyde wrote: > When making a postive comment about a product or service, many people feel the need to offer a disclaimer that they gain no benefit from...., etc., etc. Is this really neccessary? And also > There are manufactures, outfitters, dealers and the like on the list who take good care to maintain the integrity of the list. I can't help but feel they have a lot more to offer the list but don't because of this constraint. > They're the ones making, using and selling a wider variety of products than any of us could ever hope to try. If one of them wants to make specific points or offer reasonable opinions or has a hard to find product in stock, so what? I personally would not be offended, particularily since I get the occassional email from them already. I am one of those folks. With all of our staff's combined experience, education and "lessons learned the hard way," we do have lots to contribute. But I always feel quite constrained not to appear too commercial. When Paddlewise members are discussing and looking for a particularly hard to find book or video or paddle which we carry, I would love to say that to the whole list rather than to just, on occasion, send a private email saying we would be glad to provide what the Member wants. I even feel constrained at that, although about half of those result in a mail-order sale! And when everyone is discussing something we have commercially evaluated for sale in our store, I would love to give our evaluation and say they can buy the one/s we found work best from us (or, of course, from their local store). Of course, I can not take the time to write full/real magazine quality prodct evaluations for the zillions of things we carry (250 books/videos, 35 dry bags, 40 paddles, etc). Wouldn't that be a fun product catalog!?! Two of our instructors are occasional contributors of technical info and perspectives here and I love to see their expertise shared. I occasionally contribute a non-sales oriented piece (rolling a folding kayak, for example), but most of what I would have to say, if I felt free, would come from my perspective as a store owner/guide/instructor who really does have biases based both on my commercial interests and my/our zillions of paddling/guiding/teaching days. I know other similar commercial folks who severaly limit their contributions because of the same reason. We really don't want to turn this into a marketing device, but we are in the business of helping paddlers do what we all want to do! What does everyone think? Joanne Turner -- Southwind Kayak Center, Inc. 17855 Sky Park Circle #A, Irvine, CA 92614 U.S.A. 949-261-0200 or 800-SOUTHWIND (800-768-8494) info_at_southwindkayaks.com doug_at_southwindkayaks.com joanne_at_southwindkayaks.com http://www.southwindkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Southwind Kayak Center wrote: > > I think it would be positive to open Clyde's "can of worms" and > discuss how commercially connected people could/should/might/shouldn't > be involved in this list. > > When Paddlewise members are discussing and looking for a particularly > hard to find book or video or paddle which we carry, I would love to > say that to the whole list [SNIP] > > And when everyone is discussing something we have commercially > evaluated for sale in our store, I would love to give our evaluation [snip; see below] > > Two of our instructors are occasional contributors of technical info > and perspectives here and I love to see their expertise shared.[snip] > I know other similar commercial folks who severaly limit their > contributions because of the same reason. We really don't want to turn > this into a marketing device, but we are in the business of helping > paddlers do what we all want to do! I like what Steve from Alder Creek does: IF *someone else* brings it up: comment freely about the good *and bad* attributes of a given product or boat and freely acknowledge whether his firm sell it or not. That is not "advertising" so much as it is sharing expertise. I suspect strongly most list members are very savvy consumers and would resent abuse of the nature of this forum to "promote" sales of a product, per the infamous activities of the sp**s*n guy. I believe a retailer (or mfr) generates respect (translates to sales) by his/her willingness to share expertise -- and that is of more real retail benefit to the retailer than the short term benefit of meeting a short-term need for a customer. For a prime example of this, lurk on rec.boats.paddle and tune in to Kern Hendricks' participation (he is the System 3 epoxy guy). -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Speaking as Temporary List Admin (while Jackie is unavailable), I find Clyde's comments to be very reasonable. Advertising as such is forbidden on this list - Commercial promotion and advertising is not allowed. However, a simple by-line in your signature stating the name of your business and contact information is generally acceptable. (from the Paddlewise intro file) But I don't take that to exclude mentioning a product you carry in the context of providing solicited information. On Apr 28, 9:19, "Sisler, Clyde" wrote: } Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Disclaimers > > I believe a retailer (or mfr) generates respect (translates to sales) by > his/her willingness to share expertise -- and that is of more real retail > benefit to the retailer than the short term benefit of meeting a short-term > need for a customer. > > ---------- > > The primary focus of any message/response should be to pass along on topic > information. If, as part of this process, someone says something like, "we > use this instead of that because....", "our experience tells us that...." or > we sell more of these than those and we think....", that is supporting > information (to me) and quite acceptable (to me). If they happen to mention > they carry a product <as part of a discussion>, ok by me too. > > I assume their signature line would have appropiate contact information and > if I choose to, I can contact them. All things considered, I personally > prefer to deal with someone with whom I've already had some sort of contact > and have developed some sort of respect for. > > Do not say you're having a sale or offering discounts on a special trip, > etc. As part of a signature line, maybe indicate I can sign up for a > mailing list or something through which that sort thing can be handled. > > Someone mentioned before that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. If > the line is crossed, a gentle reminder should be given. If the line is > crossed again, well, that's why the list is by membership and why it is > monitored. > > IMHO, of course. >-- End of excerpt from "Sisler, Clyde" -- Bob Myers InteleNet Communications, Inc. Email: bob_at_InteleNet.net 18101 Von Karman Avenue, Suite 550 Phone: 949-851-8250 x227 Irvine, CA 92612 Fax: 949-851-1088 http://www.intelenet.net/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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