I see a lot of group paddlers contemplating leaving somehow incapacitated paddlers arguing that it is in their best interest. I have a lot of experience with group paddling, I am an aggressive intermediate and usually paddle with beginners and sometimes a few highly experienced people. Maybe it's the way I way I was brought up, maybe it's just local culture, but if I was ever abandoned by paddlemates because I was sick, slow or somehow incapacitated - I would see to it that my companions get a paddle to the head when I made it to shore. Abandonment is not an option. If they can't reasonably take care of themselves in certain situations - Don't put them in it. I expect the same respect when my life is in jeopardy. If someone is wussing out and a hurricane is closing in - tow em if you have to, the fact they are out there in such conditions is partly your fault and thus your responsibility to help them out. If they openly admit to being suicidal then yes, by all means try to help - if you can't help - screw em. I hope the reason no one is responding to this thread isn't because safety is underrated - it's that the moral fiber of this "community of paddlers" wouldn't let a friend in need down. Why paddle with anyone who disregards their and thus your safety? We shouldn't even be discussing this. You have a moral obligation to help them out. - Even if the legal duty isn't there. If a paddle partner was walking on thin ice over a fast moving river and fell through - Would you help? If you have an association to the person - by the laws governing public policy - you must. If it was a complete stranger you have no legal duty, but provided you are a person with any goodness in your body you still have a moral obligation to exhaust all means of rescue before you throw the towel in for them. All for one, One for all. Enough of this trivial thread Phil Huck thekayaker_at_yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free _at_yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/1/99 5:03:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, thekayaker_at_yahoo.com writes: << Why paddle with anyone who disregards their and thus your safety? We shouldn't even be discussing this. You have a moral obligation to help them out. >> Tom, I agree with much of what you say, but I don't think it is trivial, nor do I believe group problems are always due to moral failures. Many people who paddle off and shred a group do so without any ill intent and often without even realizing what they are doing. They often simply zone out. The reason I push to discuss this subject is that I keep hoping someone will give me (us) some useful communication tools which will make it easier for us, as either group members or leaders, to convey to all members of the group the importance and advantages of staying together, as well as some means of making it easier for them to do so. An example is Tom's use of Force-ratings for rescue skills to illustrate a person's preparedness for different levels of conditions. I think that there are many reasons people fail to keep the spread of the pod within limits appropriate to the group, the area, the nature of the trip and/or existing conditions. Yes, sometimes the reasons are related to selfishness, lack of basic boat control, injury or weakness. But there are other reasons, which I hope (perhaps naively) might be overcome with the right words of encouragement or education, or perhaps some control tactic. Following are just four of the rather innocent reasons groups spread out: 1. People misunderstand who is in control of the front-to-rear spread of the group. It isn't the person at the back -- if they aren't paddling as fast as others in the group, they tend to spread the group from the back, but they are usually doing the best they can, and are not able to close the spread. It isn't the group leaders -- they can designate a pace, but they are usually moving about within the group, checking on people's welfare and making themselves available for communication. It is those at the front of the group, no-matter who they might be, that actually have the obligation and only real opportunity to effectively control the spread of the group; but to do so, they need to be aware of the fact and need to constantly check back over both shoulders, locating the rearmost paddler and slowing as needed to allow the group to close and maintain proper spacing. How do you help people see this and accept the responsibility? 2. People misunderstand pace; everyone thinks the other guy is paddling too fast or too slow. The fact is, the pod can only go as fast (over-all) as the slowest paddler. The faster paddlers frustrate themselves and dishearten the slower ones by spurting ahead, then needing to wait as others catch up. If they understood the need to match their pace to the natural speed of the pod, they could burn up their excess energy, without spreading the pod, by moving about and socializing in the pod or by scouting out to the sides while remaining within voice contact. If the slower paddler understood, they would press a little harder, trying to contribute to the group by keeping the pace at a group-acceptable level. How do you effectively communicate this concept? 3. As conditions deteriorate, people become tense. As people tense up and/or tire, they progressively lose the ability to make rational judgments or decisions, and to control their boats. Some of the troublesome aspects of this is that they become quiet, not communicating their fatigue, discomfort or fears; they stop looking around, losing their sense of spacing and position within the group; they physically tense up -- looking straight ahead, losing flexibility in their hips, slowing their stroke, pausing to brace, and fearing to execute effective sweep strokes. All this contributes to the person losing position in the pod. How do you recognize these symptoms and ease the paddler's anxiety? 4. In rough seas people become uncomfortable looking directly behind them, losing the ability to keep tract of others. But when they need the skill, how do you teach someone to lean on a static brace or reverse sweep stroke to stabilize their rearward look? Any tricks to share? Harold So. Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> << Why paddle with anyone who disregards their and > thus your safety? > We shouldn't even be discussing this. You have a > moral obligation to help them out. >> > > Tom, I agree with much of what you say, but I don't think it is trivial, nor > do I believe group problems are always due to moral failures. Many people > who paddle off and shred a group do so without any ill intent and often > without even realizing what they are doing. They often simply zone out. I am going to take a crack at this one, as somebody who has little group experience (sorry Ralph), but with a fair amount of management experience. Before the paddle, a explicit communication by the group leader to the group is important as to goals(destinations, bird/animal watching,etc.) and methods (directions, conditions, etc.)with the potential dangers of separation emphasised. Try to ascertain the skill level of those on the trip. It is better to ask open ended questions like- what was the most hairy situation you've been in a kayak and how did you deal with it? What was the most dangerous behaivior you've seen by a kayaker? What do you expect the dangers or 'worst case scenario' would be on this trip? I am sure you with more experience could come up with better questions, but I think that you can get a pretty good idea by the answers. This will tend to get the group communicationg as well. Split the group into pairs , optimaly most with least experience with the express intention that one will inform the other if they 'zone out'. The better paddler would be an asset to the less skilled in developing a cadence and perhaps verbal instruction and encouragement. The weaker paddler is expected to be slower and therefore have less of an 'ego' problem in asking to slow down(especially to one individual). The better paddler will probably have less of a problem in communicating this to the group leader because it is not their ego on the line as well, they are just being considerate. This could constantly shift around during the paddle, but everyone should be quite clear as to their current partner. As group leader, you should pair yourself with a very well prepared experienced paddler (if there is one). You two will have more latitude in moving around between the couples monitering the 'big picture' so to speak. The key, I would think, is delegation. One premise or assumption I am making is from my personal experience- I have found that most(come to think of it, all) of the experienced paddlers I have met both on and off the net are very considerate and helpful people. It is not that there isn't a lot of these types in other disciplines, but I have found this level unique to sea kayaking. disclaimer- The weather has been warm the past couple of days and may have resulted in some synapse misfirings -- gabriel l romeu http://studiofurniture.com furniture, designed and constructed http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gabriel L Romeu wrote: > I am going to take a crack at this one, as somebody who has little group > experience (sorry Ralph), but with a fair amount of management > experience. > Before the paddle, a explicit communication by the group leader to the > group is important as to goals(destinations, bird/animal watching,etc.) > and methods (directions, conditions, etc.)with the potential dangers of > separation emphasised. Try to ascertain the skill level of those on the > trip. It is better to ask open ended questions like- what was the most > hairy situation you've been in a kayak and how did you deal with it? > What was the most dangerous behaivior you've seen by a kayaker? What do > you expect the dangers or 'worst case scenario' would be on this trip? > I am sure you with more experience could come up with better questions, > but I think that you can get a pretty good idea by the answers. This > will tend to get the group communicationg as well. Let's see...10 other people on the trip...each interview would take about 5 minutes (total 50 minutes). Statistical analysis of the findings, about another 15 minutes...drawing up a plan of action, another 20 minutes. The group's critique of your plan, another 30 minutes...re-write of the plan, another 20 minutes...vote on your final plan, another 2 minutes...a recount because of some protest voiced about the results, 2 more minutes. What time did you say the tide turns? :-) Actually, mi gran amigo Don Gabriel, I am just giving you a hard time. The ideas expressed above and below are quite good...in a perfect world. No one will sit still while you seek to talk to them. They are loading their boats, or arriving late, or going off to take a piss. The folding kayak people are sweating out getting that darn stern cockpit rib in and have no time to talk or listen. Some one grabs you and mnopolizes all your time asking in detail about how you rigged those decklines so cleverly on your stern deck. Another person has locked himself out of his car and needs to get his paddle. Some people launch right away and are already paddling in circles and about to take off; they are out of earshot for the most part. Some one reluctantly agrees to be the sweep but forgets as soon as the fever of being on the water hits and she takes off without looking back. A total beginner who is quite strong figures he has to keep up with her and takes off right after her but fizzles out just over the horizon. But, you know something. Despite all that, group trips do come off okay. Perhaps not according to one's plans and ideas. The group seeks its own level, a bit disorganized; just let it. Welcome to the human nature and the vagaries of group paddling. Everyone of the things I describe has happened to me...sometimes all on the same trip! :-) > Split the group into pairs , optimaly most with least experience with > the express intention that one will inform the other if they 'zone > out'. The better paddler would be an asset to the less skilled in > developing a cadence and perhaps verbal instruction and encouragement. > The weaker paddler is expected to be slower and therefore have less of > an 'ego' problem in asking to slow down(especially to one individual). > The better paddler will probably have less of a problem in communicating > this to the group leader because it is not their ego on the line as > well, they are just being considerate. This could constantly shift > around during the paddle, but everyone should be quite clear as to their > current partner. > As group leader, you should pair yourself with a very well prepared > experienced paddler (if there is one). You two will have more latitude > in moving around between the couples monitering the 'big picture' so to > speak. > The key, I would think, is delegation. > > One premise or assumption I am making is from my personal experience- I > have found that most(come to think of it, all) of the experienced > paddlers I have met both on and off the net are very considerate and > helpful people. It is not that there isn't a lot of these types in > other disciplines, but I have found this level unique to sea kayaking. > > disclaimer- The weather has been warm the past couple of days and may > have resulted in some synapse misfirings ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > But, you know something. Despite all that, group trips do come off > okay. Perhaps not according to one's plans and ideas. The group seeks > its own level, a bit disorganized; just let it. > > Welcome to the human nature and the vagaries of group paddling. > Everyone of the things I describe has happened to me...sometimes all on > the same trip! :-) YOur right as usual Ralph, but I hope you can excuse my meanderings to spring fever. I probably wouldn't enjoy a paddle that was so ridgidly constructed anyway...interesting problem to think about though. -- gabriel l romeu http://studiofurniture.com furniture, designed and constructed http://members.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photos, prints, etc. http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR a daily photo journal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:44 PM 4/2/99 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: >But, you know something. Despite all that, group trips do come off >okay. Perhaps not according to one's plans and ideas. The group seeks >its own level, a bit disorganized; just let it. > >Welcome to the human nature and the vagaries of group paddling. >Everyone of the things I describe has happened to me...sometimes all on >the same trip! :-) No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. I stole that line, I think from some guy named Napoleon. Hank Hays Lightning Paddles *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I'll let you all know that I have been enjoying this thread from the beginning. I am new to the sport and have only been out a few times on the water. I took a sea kayaking course last year and I will be starting a rolling course next week to get ready for the new season ahead. I've had one gentleman offer to be my paddling partner, and next weekend I'm going to an open house for a local paddling club. The questions posed here by many in the group have all been noted, and I plan to be asking a lot of questions to those that run the paddling group to find out how they deal with many of these situations. I know that the paddling group does rate all their paddles, so that some of the ones I would not be comfortable with or have enough experience with I can bow out from. For me to gain expereince I feel i need to paddle with a group, going at it solo would be crazy for me to attempt at this point in time. I might do some practice at our family cottage, for bracing, rolling, etc....bbut that would be within eye shot of other people around me and closer to shore. I feel that for someone starting out a group paddle is the best way to go. John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Hank Hays wrote: > > At 10:44 PM 4/2/99 -0800, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > >But, you know something. Despite all that, group trips do come off > >okay. Perhaps not according to one's plans and ideas. The group seeks > >its own level, a bit disorganized; just let it. > > > >Welcome to the human nature and the vagaries of group paddling. > >Everyone of the things I describe has happened to me...sometimes all on > >the same trip! :-) > > No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. > > I stole that line, I think from some guy named Napoleon. > > Hank Hays > Lightning Paddles Thanks, Hank. I thought of exactly just that phrase after I signed off on my post to Paddlewise. It is very much on target regarding group trips. I guess good minds think alike. :-) ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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