Clyde's recent test of the hand pump carried by myself and 90% of paddlers I see: > Well, I could pump water. However, my right (pump) hand was hitting the > bottom of the PFD and would have been pretty raw in short order. Secondly, > in that awkward position I couldn't keep control or put any weight on the > paddle float so I would have been swimming again in any kind of lumpy water. Sea conditions severe enough to capsize an experienced paddler will require full use of the paddle to stay upright after the paddler re-enters. Companions can help brace while the capsizee pumps by hand, but this can be hazardous to body parts and gear as the boats crash together and pull apart in the swell, and if wind or current is pushing toward a hazard, the whole group could get into worse trouble. Of course, solo paddlers don't even have this option. So, what's the latest word on electric or foot-operated pumps? I use a small boat for multi-day trips, often pack dry bags into the cockpit, and I'm hesitant to give over any cockpit space. But it seems like the best location for the pump would be between or beyond the feet, with the outlet port on the front deck, within easy reach to open/close the outlet cover. Short outlet and inlet hoses would probably be good, to speed pump action by reducing friction between water and hose. Is there any reason to run the outlet hose to a port behind the cockpit rim? Does anyone have a set-up which they've used awhile and: 1) Easily available for purchase 2) Can be installed by a non-engineer 3) Won't take up a large amount of space 4) Reasonable price (under $50) And what about the deck port, with a cover? Is there a kit which has all the needed components, designed to work together? Does anyone have experience with both electric and foot-operated pumps? I have the impression that electric would be the way to go: less expensive, lighter, more compact, does not require a complicated, beefy attachment to the hull. Allows full use of the feet, for bracing or operating rudder pedals. Probably slower to empty the cockpit, but since even a fully-swamped kayak can be braced upright and paddled forward, this seems acceptable. I think I'd rather keep my feet on the pegs and get my boat moving toward safety, even if it took, say, 20 minutes to empty the cockpit vs. 5 minutes with a foot pump. (Hand pumps are so light, compact and inexpensive (plus we all own them!) that it would be sensible to carry one as a back-up). Thanks in advance for information on your experiences. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
G'day - If you can sit tight for a few days I will have fairly complete information posted on our web site regarding electric pumps and fit kits for them. As we are in Australia - home of the electric kayak bilge pump, I think this could be of value (more specifically those Tasmanians set up the first pumps - we just made it better up here in NSW) :) I would have the pics on the site now but my three year old daughter decided to take a self study course in unloading my film from my camera - and then doing arts and crafts with the exposed film - hmmmmmm. Regards - Wayne Langmaid Central Coast Kayak Tours - only a step away from Sydney, Australia http://www.kayaktours.com VajraT_at_aol.com wrote: > Clyde's recent test of the hand pump carried by myself and 90% of paddlers I > see: > > Well, I could pump water. However, my right (pump) hand was hitting the > > bottom of the PFD and would have been pretty raw in short order. Secondly, > > in that awkward position I couldn't keep control or put any weight on the > > paddle float so I would have been swimming again in any kind of lumpy > water. > > Sea conditions severe enough to capsize an experienced paddler will require > full use of the paddle to stay upright after the paddler re-enters. > Companions can help brace while the capsizee pumps by hand, but this can be > hazardous to body parts and gear as the boats crash together and pull apart > in the swell, and if wind or current is pushing toward a hazard, the whole > group could get into worse trouble. Of course, solo paddlers don't even have > this option. So, what's the latest word on electric or foot-operated pumps? > > I use a small boat for multi-day trips, often pack dry bags into the cockpit, > and I'm hesitant to give over any cockpit space. But it seems like the best > location for the pump would be between or beyond the feet, with the outlet > port on the front deck, within easy reach to open/close the outlet cover. > Short outlet and inlet hoses would probably be good, to speed pump action by > reducing friction between water and hose. Is there any reason to run the > outlet hose to a port behind the cockpit rim? > > Does anyone have a set-up which they've used awhile and: > 1) Easily available for purchase > 2) Can be installed by a non-engineer > 3) Won't take up a large amount of space > 4) Reasonable price (under $50) > > And what about the deck port, with a cover? Is there a kit which has all the > needed components, designed to work together? > > Does anyone have experience with both electric and foot-operated pumps? I > have the impression that electric would be the way to go: less expensive, > lighter, more compact, does not require a complicated, beefy attachment to > the hull. Allows full use of the feet, for bracing or operating rudder > pedals. Probably slower to empty the cockpit, but since even a fully-swamped > kayak can be braced upright and paddled forward, this seems acceptable. I > think I'd rather keep my feet on the pegs and get my boat moving toward > safety, even if it took, say, 20 minutes to empty the cockpit vs. 5 minutes > with a foot pump. > > (Hand pumps are so light, compact and inexpensive (plus we all own them!) > that it would be sensible to carry one as a back-up). > > Thanks in advance for information on your experiences. > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: VajraT_at_aol.com Date sent: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:47:20 EDT Subject: [Paddlewise] Current Info on Electric or Foot Pumps? To: clyde_sisler_at_email.msn.com, PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Does anyone have a set-up which they've used awhile and: > 1) Easily available for purchase > 2) Can be installed by a non-engineer > 3) Won't take up a large amount of space > 4) Reasonable price (under $50) > > And what about the deck port, with a cover? Is there a kit which has all the > needed components, designed to work together? > > Does anyone have experience with both electric and foot-operated pumps? We beat this topic to death a few months ago, so it's all probably on the archives somewhere. Handpumps are the quickest way to empty a flooded boat if you're doing a demo sitting by a dock in flat water. The standard gray and red pumps are powerful, and empty a flooded boat in less than a minute. However, that's not where you're going to need it --- by the dock in flat water. For my money, the foot pump is still the best option. I looked at electric pumps, but saw too many potential failure points and a lot of routine maintenance. (The Attwood "D" cell operated pump which Nick mentioned is the only simple electric pump I've tried, but it took forever to make a dent in my intentionally flooded cockpit --- too slow for my interests.) There are two pumps available which should work well: the Henderson foot pump --- basically, the venerable Chimp pump outfitted with a tough stainless steel spring inside the chamber which pulls water up into the pump and a pedal to expel it overboard, and the Guzzler foot pump, identical in operation. The Henderson foot pump is compact, and is ideal for sea kayaks; many "British Heavies" come with Henderson pumps, although there seem to be a lot of foredeck pumps coming over most recently --- not a lot of foot pumps. Downside is that it comes from the UK, and it's going to run significanctly over $100 in the States. To get a sense of what they look like, check out Whale, Henderson's sister company's, web site --- both part of Munster Simms --- <http://www.whale.ltd.uk/marpro/urchin.htm>. Imagine that pump with a plate to push in on with your foot instead of the handle for both operations. Also see the direct action Guzzler foot pump at Bosworth's web site, <http://www.bosworth.thomasregister.com/olc/bosworth>; functionally identical to Henderson --- maybe a slightly larger footprint and overall volume --- but is made in Rhode Island, and is priced at local marine suppliers at about $50. I have Hendersons installed in my "British Heavy" Pintail and in my newly constructed CLC North Bay, and am very happy with both. They're simple in operation, dependable, and batteries are neither included or needed. I can wet exit, do a re-entry and roll, put on my skirt, skull or start paddling, and have the boat essentially dry in one to two minutes, max. That's worst case. Hands on the paddle, not on the pump. In big water with no help, where you might need a pump, a handpump would not likely be effective at all. Foot pumps work. As to covers and other plumbing issues, no worries. These pumps have a flapper valve on the intake port --- water can enter the chamber only when the spring extends the diaphragm --- and a triple baffle "goose beak" exhaust valve (much like a heart valve) on the overboard end. Little or no water will enter, especially if you exhaust it over the side vice using the deck. Keep the plumbing short and sweet, but use a "strum box" or other device in the bilge at the open end of the intake hose to catch the max amount of water. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack wrote: >The Henderson foot pump is compact, and is ideal for sea kayaks; >many "British Heavies" come with Henderson pumps, although >there seem to be a lot of foredeck pumps coming over most >recently --- not a lot of foot pumps. Downside is that it comes from >the UK, and it's going to run significanctly over $100 in the States. >To get a sense of what they look like, check out Whale, >Henderson's sister company's, web site --- both part of Munster >Simms --- <http://www.whale.ltd.uk/marpro/urchin.htm>. Imagine >that pump with a plate to push in on with your foot instead of the >handle for both operations. I purchased a Henderson foot pump not long ago and am going to be installing it in my Current Designs GTS as soon as I muster courage to bore through the hull. Any tips on installing the pump for the inexperienced. Also, anyone have an idea whether the pumps effectiveness would be compromised if it is mounted at a slight angle? I have a knee tube that I use for emergency supplies that runs the length of the hull (cockpit to bulkhead), I don't think the pump will fit if it is mounted straight up-and-down. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Date sent: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:19:25 -0500 To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net From: Patrick Maun <pmaun_at_bitstream.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Current Info on Electric or Foot Pumps? > Any tips on installing the pump for the > inexperienced. Also, anyone have an idea whether the pumps > effectiveness would be compromised if it is mounted at a slight > angle? Nick's comments on installation were great. It really depends on your boat, Patrick. (Note: Nick's "torch" is a transplanted Britism -- - even if the OZs won't admit it --- for what's called a flashlight in the US. It was an interesting idea for a North American colonial to think about holding some flaming pitch knot inside the boat to find the drill point!) I consider myself terminally inexperienced, and on my Pintail --- no rudder --- I filled the cockpit area aft of the forward bulkhead with a six inch thick minicell plug to create a footrest --- don't like mechanical footrests --- and cut away a void in the starboard side of the plug for the Henderson foot pump. It's just wedged into a cutout in the foam block on a slight angle for foot comfort, and the plumbing sets into recesses in the foam. So far, so good --- four years, no problem. On the North Bay --- again, no rudder ---, the forward bulkhead was built oversize (and of nine mm plywood for added strength) and was located at a point a few inches forward of my ideal foot position; it is set in on an eight degree angle, again for some foot comfort. The Henderson foot pump is directly attached to the bulkhead, and a tapered (thinner at the top) three inch foam plug was made to surround the pump and create another very comfortable footrest. So it's pretty boat-dependent, but, as Nick points out, it's kinda hard to really kluge it up too badly. The Henderson pump comes with a set of brackets to mount it to what's called a "Failsafe" foot rest --- a bar that goes across the cockpit and attaches (I assume) to the track for the sliding (Yakima-style) footrests. There area probably an infinite number of mounting solutions, and your angled solution sounds typical, Patrick. Good luck with the install. Let us know how it comes out. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: > On the North Bay --- again, no rudder ---, the forward bulkhead was > built oversize (and of nine mm plywood for added strength) and was > located at a point a few inches forward of my ideal foot position; it > is set in on an eight degree angle, again for some foot comfort. > The Henderson foot pump is directly attached to the bulkhead, and > a tapered (thinner at the top) three inch foam plug was made to > surround the pump and create another very comfortable footrest. Don't have a mental picture of the layout of the pump (yet) -- where is the lever/pedal you work with your foot/feet -- is it on the aft surface of the pump, center of the yak? When you need to activate the pump, you have to slide your foot over onto the pump, yes? What happens when someone with shorter legs than yours uses the yak? How would they operate the pump? (I know the answer for someone with *longer* legs -- remove a few inches between knee and ankle!) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Date sent: Tue, 11 May 1999 04:34:56 -0700 From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> To: Jack Martin <jcmartin43_at_radix.net>, PaddleWise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Info on Foot Pump? > > Don't have a mental picture of the layout of the pump (yet) -- where is the > lever/pedal you work with your foot/feet -- is it on the aft surface of the > pump, center of the yak? > Sorry it wasn't more clear, Dave. For a start, imagine a low decked, 20" beam Greenland kayak --- the forward bulkhead is pretty small. And, since this design is really a day-tripper and lacks hatches, it has a four inch deckplate in the bulkhead for air circulation during storage and, potentially, I suppose, access for storage of a spare ibuprophen bottle or two; I relocated the deck plate from the center to the port side, and attached the pump on the starboard side of center. The exhaust hose covers a gap of one half inch between the pump outlet fitting and the through-the- hull discharge fitting. Things are tight! Henderson sells the pump with a plywood pedal --- maybe two by five inches or so --- which is bracketed onto the end of the shaft which goes through the diaphragm and which is, in turn, held in place by two plastic stiffening plates, on inside and one outside the diaphragm. For obvious reasons, I eliminated the pedal and replaced the shaft with a stainless steel nut and bolt, along with two fender washers. The minicell plug footrest surrounds the pump (covering the deckplate and the rest of the bulkhead) and the ball of my right foot can rest on the foam to the right of the pump body, on the round pedal (which is covered with a thin skin of minicell for comfort 'cause all I can wear in this boat is neoprene socks and I've got only a size 10 foot) or slightly inside the pump if I want. Long explanation --- sorry. > When you need to activate the pump, you have to slide your foot over onto > the pump, yes? > Yup, all 1.5 inches over! > What happens when someone with shorter legs than yours uses the yak? How > would they operate the pump? (I know the answer for someone with *longer* > legs -- remove a few inches between knee and ankle!) > Well, the boat has been in the water twice, and I don't anticipate many others paddling it. Paul Hollebaugh had the opposite problem; being longer legged than me (and I'm probably in the 95th percentile at 6'1") he got part way in and got stuck. A smaller person would rattle around a lot, and might not be able to reach the pump. Hadn't considered that possibility much --- this is pretty much a one-person boat. In the Pintail, I have an extra deep heel support to replace the one I use (also removable); it allows smaller critters to paddle it, and possibly to pump --- dunno, don't think I ever had anyone try. Again, essentially a one-man boat, I guess. To give a sense of scale, this structurally complete but un-painted and un-varnished, paddle-capable boat is still kind of in a work-in- process status --- as are all my boats, actually --- but I'm thinking of significantly expanding my toe room by rounding off the lower inner edges of the sheer clamps --- one inch by three-quarter inch "timbers" which join the side panels and the deck. A quarter inch radius round-off with a plane and sander will vastly improve the somewhat tight foot room. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack wrote: >The Henderson pump comes with a set of brackets to mount it to >what's called a "Failsafe" foot rest --- a bar that goes across the >cockpit and attaches (I assume) to the track for the sliding >(Yakima-style) footrests. There area probably an infinite number of >mounting solutions, and your angled solution sounds typical, >Patrick. > Thanks for the tips to all who sent them! Yes, the Henderson does come with a mounting bracket on the back which they say in the instructions is for mounting the pump on a cross-bar. The idea on mounting it on a bar that attaches to the Yakima foot-pegs is intriguing. Is there such a bar? I am thinking of something that slide in front (towards the bow) of the pegs (yes, my boat has a rudder) and tighten down. This way the pump could be adjusted depending on who's paddling. My boat isn't nearby, so I can't even check if this would work. But interesting idea... -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Date sent: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:08:11 -0500 To: "Jack Martin" <jcmartin43_at_radix.net>, paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net From: Patrick Maun <pmaun_at_bitstream.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Current Info on Electric or Foot Pumps? > The idea on mounting [the Henderson foot pump] on a bar that > attaches to the Yakima foot-pegs is intriguing. Is there such a bar? > I am thinking of something that slide in front (towards the bow) > of the pegs (yes, my boat has a rudder) and tighten down. My fault, Patrick. I made an assumption here, and have checked it out. The pump we have comes with brackets which mount to a "Failsafe Footbrace" which, according to Stan Chladek at Great River Outfitters, isn't used much anymore. And he'd be the source. In any case, this footbrace had to be fiberglassed into the cockpit, and wasn't very comfortable; it didn't attach to the Yak footpeg tracks, as I'd guessed in an earlier post. According to Stan, most foot pumps are mounted to a bulkhead. Another idea: a friend building a CLC boat has cut down a crab pot float to make a pedestal for his Henderson foot pump, since he built his kayak to spec, and the bulkhead is too for forward to mount the pump properly. Haven't seen this demoed yet, but there are probably a lot of good ideas out there. I'd go back to review the procedure Colin outlined earlier. Or use my technique: carve a minicell foam plug and slide it in with the pump mounted to it or embedded in it, and still use your rudder pedal/footrests. There's that much less water to pump out when you do that, too. Jack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
"Sisler, Clyde" wrote: > > Another suggestion that came out of the discussion a few months ago was > to get the spray skirt on while upside down after performing the reentry > piece of a reentry and roll. While it is (still) a difficult process, > I've found that with practice that I can do it reliably so that once I > roll to the surface, I'm prepared to use the foot pump and to deal with > the above water conditions. > > What kind of spray skirt or does it matter? I have a difficult time > maintaining balance on calm water while reaching behind me to get the spray > skirt started and typically rock back and forth. > > I have a hard shell and Perception neoprene skirt which is about as loose as > it gets. I had seen previous mention during re-entry discussions of putting > the spray skirt on upside down and was wondering if they were using a > different type of skirt, maybe one of those touring skirts with suspenders. I've got a Palm combination skirt - top is nylon, the bottom part that stretches around the cockpit is neoprene. It's a very tight fit, but not very difficult to put on. Once thing I like about this spray skirt is the lack of a knot joining the two ends of the shock cord within. On my other skirts, that knot sometimes made it difficult to attach the skirt properly on cockpit coaming that don't stand very high off the deck. The downside of not having the knot (type that three times fast) is that it is more difficult to adjust the tension. I haven't tried to on mine yet -- it's a perfect fit for my boat, but it's got to be more difficult. Greg Hollingsworth *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Greg Hollingsworth wrote: > I've got a Palm combination skirt - top is nylon, the bottom part that > stretches around the cockpit is neoprene. It's a very tight fit, but > not very difficult to put on. Once thing I like about this spray skirt > is the lack of a knot joining the two ends of the shock cord within. You can convert the usual mongo knot on a sprayskirt bungie to a low profile with double cable ties. Take spares on trips. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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