Udo Beier (and now others have joined in the effort) keeps a list of mostly European kayaks. He lists the volume dimensions of the bow/cockpit/day/rear compartments. I'm not sure of the accuracy of the figures or how they were obtained. He has published the list about once a year in the Spring in the German Seekajaker (Club) Magazine. I have seen the list in English as well but I can't remember where or if it has the compartment volumes (I think it was a British magazine or Anorak). Somebody can probably fill in the details here. I have added that info and any other I have been able to garner from dozens of sources to my database of single sea kayaks worldwide. If you only want to compare a few kayaks send me an E-mail of what they are and I'll give you what info I have on them. That all said there is often lots of storage room that is not behind a hatch or a bulkhead and depending on the placement of bulkheads more or less appears to be available but the total remains about the same. Total volume is probably the better measure of actual gear capacity. You can find this for a lot of kayaks in back issues of Sea Kayaker magazine although they calculate the entire volume inside the outside of the skin. This is about 5% more than most manufacturers get who take the trouble to fill their boats with water and measure how much it took. Maybe a standard volume should be subtracted to cover the average unusable space around the average paddler. That way a 80 gallon kayak compared to a 100 gallon kayak would not appear to have 80% of the gear capacity. After subtracting 40 or 50 gallons for the paddlers space you could get a better ratio of how the storage volumes really compare. The 40 to 50 gallons is a very rough guess on my part. Anybody want to calculate this more precisely and tell us how they determined the result? When Sea Kayaker magazine first started measuring volumes, back in 1986, I suggested they stand a kayak up on end and measure the volume to the rear of the cockpit and in front of the footpedals of a paddler with a standard inseam length and foot size. Any compartments could be measured separately. Even then a kayak with useable storage space next to the seat or more cockpit behind the paddler than usual would be penalized. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com -----Original Message----- From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com> Cc: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Pro's and Con's of the "Swede Form" >Hank Hays wrote: > >> John Winters wrote: >> >If measurements have no importance why do we put the dimensions of our >> >boats in our advertising? >> >> Manufacturers and boat designers, lazy souls they are, only put the easy >> ones. I don't see hull thickness, a very important item. Or strength >> moduli, also quite important. You mean they're often different from boat >> to boat? Thought this was measurable, repeatable, quantifiable stuff...... > >What I want to know is the volume in the hatches. More important that >the total volume, in my view. Except for Boreal Designs ads, I never >see this info published. > >Mike > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > Udo Beier (and now others have joined in the effort) keeps a list of mostly > European kayaks. He lists the volume dimensions of the bow/cockpit/day/rear > compartments. [snip] > Maybe a standard volume should be subtracted to cover the average unusable > space around the average paddler. That way a 80 gallon kayak compared to a > 100 gallon kayak would not appear to have 80% of the gear capacity. After > subtracting 40 or 50 gallons for the paddlers space I'd estimate (200 lbs)*(1 pint/1 lb)*(1 gallon/8 pints) = 25 gallons for a paddler's *total* volume. The paddler's torso (above the midriff), arms, and head are all out of the boat, so knock a third off to give 16 gallons. This calculation assumes the density of an average paddler is close to that of water. Most of us are a little less dense than that, so maybe we 200-pounders occupy 17 gallons of boat. I'd guess this is close, because it ignores the extra volume of clothing, but over-estimates the proportion of the body actually inside the boat. (That 1/3 I knocked off is low, I bet.) Lighterweight folks would occupy proportionately less. It is our **weight** which is the critical consumer of yak capacity, not the chunk of volume we take up inside. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
What I meant was a calculation of how much space we take up or cause to be not suitable for gear storage. Such as, all the volume inside the kayak that is around ones legs that rarely gets used for storage. This will be a lot higher than just the volume of our lower torso and legs. Matt -----Original Message----- From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> To: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> Cc: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak volumes >Matt Broze wrote: >> >> Udo Beier (and now others have joined in the effort) keeps a list of mostly >> European kayaks. He lists the volume dimensions of the bow/cockpit/day/rear >> compartments. [snip] > >> Maybe a standard volume should be subtracted to cover the average unusable >> space around the average paddler. That way a 80 gallon kayak compared to a >> 100 gallon kayak would not appear to have 80% of the gear capacity. After >> subtracting 40 or 50 gallons for the paddlers space > >I'd estimate (200 lbs)*(1 pint/1 lb)*(1 gallon/8 pints) = 25 gallons for a >paddler's *total* volume. The paddler's torso (above the midriff), arms, and >head are all out of the boat, so knock a third off to give 16 gallons. This >calculation assumes the density of an average paddler is close to that of >water. Most of us are a little less dense than that, so maybe we 200-pounders >occupy 17 gallons of boat. I'd guess this is close, because it ignores the >extra volume of clothing, but over-estimates the proportion of the body >actually inside the boat. (That 1/3 I knocked off is low, I bet.) > >Lighterweight folks would occupy proportionately less. > >It is our **weight** which is the critical consumer of yak capacity, not the >chunk of volume we take up inside. > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > What I meant was a calculation of how much space we take up or cause to be > not suitable for gear storage. Such as, all the volume inside the kayak that > is around ones legs that rarely gets used for storage. This will be a lot > higher than just the volume of our lower torso and legs. That's a little more difficult. An approximation could be made by measuring the beam and depth of the yak, at the paddler's feet and his/her back, when the yakker is in sitting position. Use these to make an "average" diameter over the section of hull the paddler's lower body occupies. Measure the distance along the hull from the soles of the paddler's feet to the back of his/her buttocks. Treat the section as a cylinder and use the formula for volume. This would give a high value, because hull cross sections approximate an ellipse, not a circle. It also treats as unusable the under-deck space above the paddler's legs, which some use for a knee tube, etc. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: back in 1986, I suggested they stand a kayak up > on end and measure the volume to the rear of the cockpit and in front of the > footpedals of a paddler with a standard inseam length and foot size. Any > compartments could be measured separately. Even then a kayak with useable > storage space next to the seat or more cockpit behind the paddler than usual > would be penalized. > Matt Broze > http://www.marinerkayaks.com I must have missed something here. If the objective is to determine how much gear a paddler could carry in his/her boat, why penalize the boat for the useable space inside the cockpit. I know it presents an emptying problem if the boat gets flooded but I believe the discussion had to do with gear packing volume. Folding kayaks have useable space inside of the cockpit alongside the paddler and a means for securing it in place, i.e. the longerons and ribs can accept straps to hold gear in. It depends on the folding kayak. The K-Light has some room in the cockpit but not as much as Klepper single. The advantage of storing things in the cockpit area is that it is neutral area in terms of trim. Also items inside the cockpit are more conveniently accessed while underway. Several companies including Long Haul Products sell what are termed cockpit bags, i.e. bags meant to fit inside of a folding kayak directly alongside the paddler or his/her legs. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> To: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> Cc: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak volumes >Matt Broze wrote: > back in 1986, I suggested they stand a kayak up >> on end and measure the volume to the rear of the cockpit and in front of the >> footpedals of a paddler with a standard inseam length and foot size. Any >> compartments could be measured separately. Even then a kayak with useable >> storage space next to the seat or more cockpit behind the paddler than usual >> would be penalized. >> Matt Broze >> http://www.marinerkayaks.com > >ralph diaz responded: I must have missed something here. If the objective is to determine how >much gear a paddler could carry in his/her boat, why penalize the boat >for the useable space inside the cockpit. I know it presents an >emptying problem if the boat gets flooded but I believe the discussion >had to do with gear packing volume. > >Folding kayaks have useable space inside of the cockpit alongside the >paddler and a means for securing it in place, i.e. the longerons and >ribs can accept straps to hold gear in. It depends on the folding >kayak. The K-Light has some room in the cockpit but not as much as >Klepper single. The advantage of storing things in the cockpit area is >that it is neutral area in terms of trim. Also items inside the cockpit >are more conveniently accessed while underway. Several companies >including Long Haul Products sell what are termed cockpit bags, i.e. >bags meant to fit inside of a folding kayak directly alongside the >paddler or his/her legs. Sorry I switched the name of the thread since it started on Pros and cons of swedeform and was way off topic. Earlier we had discussed coming up with a volume the average paddler would take up in the average kayak. By subtracting that volume from the total volume we could estimate relative gear storage capacities. That way any boat wide enough to have storage room beside the seat wouldn't be penalized as much as just filling the back and the front with water or using just compartmented space. I don't think I would like to count that "large" gear bag that went between my legs at the start of a three week Queen Charlotte trip in an early Featrhercraft K-2 as usable storage even though I was forced to use it then.:-) Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter >PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 >Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com >"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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