>> Perhaps you can argue that no one owns the rights to any kayak skill, but the matter really boils down to respect. Had the Greenlanders been approached and offered their advice and input, perhaps the outcome would have been different. Perhaps the ACA should donate a portion of its take to kayaking and cultural programs in Greenland. At any rate, the Greenlanders and John Heath are extremely opposed to this program (and news about a similar BCU program) and can use your help. What to do. Out of respect for the Greenlanders and John Heath I feel the ACA should hold off on a decision to start certification until the Greenlanders have had time to meet, heads have cooled and the issues have been discussed. In the meantime, please write to the ACA <mailto:acadirect_at_aol.com> and urge that the Greenland kayak instructor certification program be suspended. You can reach John Heath at <mailto:jdheath_at_fbtc.net> Greg Stamer >> I'm with John Heath on this one. One of the questions I had when I first heard about the proposed ACA Greenland certification was which Greenland technique? Another, related, one was who is going to certify the certifiers? Questions of respect aside (if it is possible to put them entirely aside), probably most of what is taught as Greenland technique in this country is of questionable authenticity. Greg Stamer has written of the differences between Maligiaq Padilla's style and what is normally taught as Greenland style in North America; from what I have heard, George Gronseth, who studied Greenland style kayaking in Greenland, teaches a much different style than that taught elsewhere in North America; Doug Van Doren, who made a video on the subject, was unaware of any sliding stroke but the full sliding stroke until I brought it to his attention. As an example, one thing I have noticed is that many paddlers and even some instructors who prefer Greenland paddles for their own use grasp the tip of the paddle when extending it instead of sliding the hand out on the blade parallel to the lower hand. The first is derived from Euro-style technique (it is the only way to fully extend a paddle with a wide blade); the second is pure Greenland technique and the only extension technique I have seen used by Greenlanders in films, videos and John Heath's ilustrations. I mention this partly because I have in front of me as I write a photo in the July 4 edition of the St. Paul Pioneer Press of a sea kayaker rolling with a "Greenland" paddle with his hand grasping the tip in what appears to me to be a very awkward position. (Unfortunately, the photo is not available on the Web, but you can read the article, "Sea-kayaking on a roll," at http://www.duluthnews.com/dnt/outdoors/kay27.htm and the sidebar, "Kayaking proves fit for many" at http://www.pioneerplanet.com/seven-days/3/outdoors/docs/030008.htm.) I guess it boils down to what you mean by "Greenland" technique or, for that matter, a "Greenland" paddle. I see at least two approaches, both of them valid; I'll call them the traditionalist approach and the modernist approach. The traditionalist approach teaches only techniques used by the natives of Greenland and uses only paddles shaped like those made by the natives of Greenland. The modernist approach teaches how to use a variety of narrow-bladed paddles effectively and may include many authentic Greenland techniques, but is not overly concerned about authenticity. If your main interest is learning how the natives of Greenland paddle, the former approach is best for you; but if your only interest is learning how to use your narrow-bladed paddle -- which may have been sold to you as a "Greenland" paddle -- more effectively, the latter approach might be all you need or want. My preference would be to apply the name "Greenland" only to the former approach and to apply another, such as "narrow-blade technique" to the latter. Regarding certification, there is already an international precedent. Many instructors in this country are certified by the British Canoe Union (BCU). As I understand it (I am not an instructor), the BCU closely monitors the work of BCU-certified instructors and coaches in North America. Perhaps a similar arrangement could be made with the Greenlanders. This presents a possible cultural problem, however: I understand that in traditional Greenland culture, children and other people are expected to learn by themselves by observing others, and that it is considered impolite to criticise how another person does something. This might create obstacles to creating a standard instructional program. However, maybe Greenland culture has changed enough that this would no longer be a problem. Does anyone have any details of how the proposed ACA certification would work and what techniques would be taught? Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:44 AM 7/6/99 -0500, Chuck Holst wrote: >I'm with John Heath on this one. One of the questions I had when I first >heard about the proposed ACA Greenland certification was which Greenland >technique? Another, related, one was who is going to certify the >certifiers? Chuck, I received the following letter from John Heath who is not currently a PaddleWise member. John consented to having this letter posted to the list. I hope that this information will clarify the issues and his concerns. Greg Stamer From: "J Heath" <jdheath_at_fbtc.net> To: "Greg Stamer" <gstamer_at_magicnet.net> Subject: Greenland Kayaking Technique Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 00:44:30 -0500 Dear Greg, There has been some discussion by e-mail recently about the subject of Greenland Kayaking Skills being certified by the American Canoe Association or other groups. On page 2 of the Western Michigan Coastal Kayaker for July-August 1999 is an article by Doug Van Doren, Which announces that the Nordkapp Trust is offering a certification system in "Inuit Paddling". I understand that Nigel Dennis, of the Anglesy Sea and Surf Center in Wales, selected Doug as the initial certifier. The ACA instructor who wants to become the initial certifier is Ray Killen. This begs the question: what examination was given to select Doug Van Doren and Ray Killen to have the authority to evaluate and certify instructors, who would then go forth and teach other instructors, ad infinitum? I feel qualified to question these certification programs because I was present at the first National Meeting of Qaannat Kattuffiat, the Greenland National Kayak League, in 1985. That was when veteran Greenland seal catchers bestowed the responsibility of keeping Greenland's kayaking heritage alive upon Qaannat Kattuffiat. I contacted Kaleraq Bech, one of the founders of Qaannat Kattuffiat, when I learned of the proposed United Kingdom and United States activities toward certification. Kaleraq was outraged that such programs would be considered without the advice and consent of Qaannat Kattuffiat. Greenlanders consider their kayaking technique to be part of their heritage. For outsiders to teach instructors to go forth and certify other instructors in what Greenlanders regard as part of their culture would be arrogant and callused. I have asked the ACA committee to delay the Certification Program until the Greenland National Kayak League has a chance to respond after their general meeting in August 1999. They will also need time to translate from Greenlandic into English. Two members of that committee have favored delaying the certification until Qaannat Kattuffiat has a chance to respond. I commend these members for helping avoid what could be an unpleasant international incident. In the decade beginning in 1989, I have helped bring five Greenland kayakers to the U.S.A., including three reigning Greenland national champions. These kayakers have been well received at exhibitions. One of them, Maligiaq J. Padilla, is still in the U.S. As a longtime advocate of recreational kayakers learning traditional kayaking technique, I hope that more paddlers can do so. There is no need to mass-produce inadequately trained instructors. That would result in a flawed program and alienate the very people we need to help train us. John Heath *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
An interesting thread. We seem to be concerned --- justifiably --- that the ACA or BCU or any other "accreditation" group will finally discover "the" Greenlandic technique in paddling and patent it for sale. The real problem, from my experience, is that there does not seem to *be* any one accepted, standard Greenlandic technique --- at least not in Greenland. I remember first watching Maligiaq at the DelMarVa meeting last fall and wondering how someone with so much recognition within the Greenland paddling community could have such a terrible Greenland stroke! But "terrible" by whose standards? My guess is that there is a continuum of paddling styles in Greenland, and Maligiaq represents just one beautiful point on that continuum; by inference, there may be lots of other styles of paddling within the Greenland communities, nots superior or inferior to the style Maligiaq showed us, which all fall within true Greenland strokes. Why should we, as a worldwide paddling community, even attempt to stardardize, package, wholesale and retail some self-styled "Greenland style" when it appears that there is such a diversity of style and technique at the source? Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: > > An interesting thread. We seem to be concerned --- justifiably --- that the > ACA or BCU or any other "accreditation" group will finally discover "the" > Greenlandic technique in paddling and patent it for sale. The real problem, > from my experience, is that there does not seem to *be* any one accepted, > standard Greenlandic technique --- at least not in Greenland. > > I remember first watching Maligiaq at the DelMarVa meeting last fall and > wondering how someone with so much recognition within the Greenland paddling > community could have such a terrible Greenland stroke! But "terrible" by > whose standards? My guess is that there is a continuum of paddling styles > in Greenland, and Maligiaq represents just one beautiful point on that > continuum; by inference, there may be lots of other styles of paddling > within the Greenland communities, nots superior or inferior to the style > Maligiaq showed us, which all fall within true Greenland strokes. Why > should we, as a worldwide paddling community, even attempt to stardardize, > package, wholesale and retail some self-styled "Greenland style" when it > appears that there is such a diversity of style and technique at the source? > > Jack Martin What Jack says would be true of any style of paddling. While "sea kayaking" is being taught without any particular style name attached to it, it too has a spectrum of styles and approaches. And some of it can be quite doctrinaire. Take assisted rescues involving 1 kayaker assisting a capsized kayaker to get back into his/her kayak. I know of about five different approaches to this. But, boy, trying doing one that the instructor doesn't favor and you get tongue-lashed and put down immediately. They all are good and often the best thing to do in a rescue is to do the one that you know or that presents itself immediately to you, i.e. the boats have wound up facing in a particular direction and so don't waste time getting them into another position...do the rescue that presents itself right than and there. Years ago, a double kayak went over in NY harbor right off the Battery on Fleet Week with hundreds of motorboats whizzing around. The group leader approached the situation and then started debating which method would work best. Should he do this one or that one, blah, blah, blah. While he debated with himself and others, a canoeist just paddled up, pulled the upside down boat over his forward section, emptied it, flipped it back over, hung on to the kayak's gunwale and helped the guys get in. Imagine that...a canoe rescuing a kayak, what will they think of next! No argument, the Nike approach from commercials "Just Do It." The same would go for Greenland style paddling teaching. There can't possibly be a single doctrinaire approach to it. Let individuals like Ray Killen, who I know and trust as a person of great kayaking skill, intelligence, good humor, sense of proportions and proven respect for Greenland traditions come up with a set of instructional goals and guidelines. I know John Heath well and respect his views. If it weren't for John's interest, scholarship and evangelism regarding Greenland kayaking, there would have been no Ray Killen and others who have picked up the mystique. I witnessed some of the very beginnings of this on the East Coast in 1991 when John showed up at the East Coast Symposium and began changing the landscape of paddling for a core of paddlers. John is an advocate purist. I have seen him in his zeal intimidate even George Dyson although certainly that was not the intent of this kindly Texan gentleman. John certainly has a stake and feeling for the Greenland culture. But cultures spread especially the stylized parts of them. In transition and translation they lose their purity. There really isn't any way to sanctify what results. What emerges from the ACA and BCU may actually be richer and more suited for their audiences than anything purist Greenland would ever be. Americans, Canadians and Brits are not Greenlanders in temperament, culture and body shape. Let 'em have something that suits 'em. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > While "sea > kayaking" is being taught without any particular style name attached to > it, it too has a spectrum of styles and approaches. And some of it can > be quite doctrinaire. Take assisted rescues involving 1 kayaker > assisting a capsized kayaker to get back into his/her kayak. I know of > about five different approaches to this. But, boy, trying doing one > that the instructor doesn't favor and you get tongue-lashed and put down > immediately. I would suggest that this is a function of the instructor, and not the body that accredited him or her. > Years ago, a double kayak went over in NY harbor right off the Battery > on Fleet Week with hundreds of motorboats whizzing around. The group > leader approached the situation and then started debating which method > would work best. Should he do this one or that one, blah, blah, blah. There is an amusing vignette in "Performance Sea Kayaking" that demonstrates this sort of event. It's funny to watch Kent Ford floundering in the water while 3 experts debate rescure methodologies. I confess that IU have been known to do exactly what the group leader did, but only in calm water and with learners. It's called "the teachable moment." However, when I got dumped by a boomer in Tomales Bay, just off the point, I was grateful that my instructor said "In the boat. Now!" and got our butts out of there. Steve Cramer Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > huge snip. . . > <<John certainly has a stake and feeling for the Greenland culture. But > cultures spread especially the stylized parts of them. In transition > and translation they lose their purity. There really isn't any way to > sanctify what results. What emerges from the ACA and BCU may actually > be richer and more suited for their audiences than anything purist > Greenland would ever be. Americans, Canadians and Brits are not > Greenlanders in temperament, culture and body shape. Let 'em have > something that suits 'em.>> Greg Stamer wrote: huge snip. . . <<Perhaps you can argue that no one owns the rights to any kayak skill, but the matter really boils down to respect. Had the Greenlanders been approached and offered their advice and input, perhaps the outcome would have been different. Perhaps the ACA should donate a portion of its take to kayaking and cultural programs in Greenland. At any rate, the Greenlanders and John Heath are extremely opposed to this program (and news about a similar BCU program) and can use your help. >> I am the first one to admit I lack experience in the paddling side of this issue from which to speak. I've only been kayaking for a few months. The concern I have is a process concern. I agree with Ralph 100% from what I know but is there any reason, other than impatience, that ACA can't wait until full consultation has at least been attempted? John Heath wrote: <<Greenlanders consider their kayaking technique to be part of their heritage. For outsiders to teach instructors to go forth and certify other instructors in what Greenlanders regard as part of their culture would be arrogant and callused. I have asked the ACA committee to delay the Certification Program until the Greenland National Kayak League has a chance to respond after their general meeting in August 1999. They will also need time to translate from Greenlandic into English. Two members of that committee have favored delaying the certification until Qaannat Kattuffiat has a chance to respond. I commend these members for helping avoid what could be an unpleasant international incident.>> We are a fairly small community and mutual respect and concern need to be the leading factors in our dealings with each other both as individuals and as groups interested in promoting the sport. I wonder if the ACA is really being as precipitous as it looks. Is this the entire story? Is it possible for us to hear the ACA's proposal and the rational for what it plans to do. What is the time table and what is the basis for that time table? Why would the ACA choose not to wait this short time? If the ACA wants to represent kayakers it will have to truly do so or it will just be another group that has set itself outside the community it wants to represent. A perception of arrogance or unresponsiveness can be its undoing, no matter how good its intentions or actions. This is a two edged sword. On the other hand, Qaannat Kattuffiat can't be the only voice given weight in an American organization. ACA may decide that it will proceed, despite the objections of the Greenlanders. That is the right of the organization but it will serve no good if that decision is taken with a disregard or disrespect for their point of view. There must be an obvious and honest attempt to accommodate the views of Qaannat Kattuffiat. Only after hearing all points of view will any decision by ACA be held as legitimate. Ralph is quite right in pointing out that we are not Greenlanders and our needs may be quite different. The individuals wanting certification should be in the forefront of the movement to incorporate both groups in the process. The inclusiveness of ACA will broaden its base and make its voice more widely listened to. Certification will carry only the weight of the certifying organization. In the process the ACA has the potential of maturing and deepening its base. Decisions can always be changed but it is much harder to change reputations. Great care is needed in this rapidly expanding sport. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Martin wrote: > An interesting thread. Agreed > Why > should we, as a worldwide paddling community, even attempt to stardardize, > package, wholesale and retail some self-styled "Greenland style" when it > appears that there is such a diversity of style and technique at the source? Because we have to start somewhere? This reminds me of my other sporting fanaticism, Nordic skiing (cross country to some). The advent of freestyle techniques in the early eighties threw everything in the air. It took a long time to sort out the good and bad techniques. Now there are standard techniques that are being taught. However, not all the top racers use them! Just because it's Nordic skiing,doesn't mean that the Nordic countries command the skills development. Freestyle, for all intents and purposes, can be considered an American invention (Bill Koch). I've learned a specific set of freestyle techniques and practice them faithfully. Now to kayaking. We need to have a small number of basic techniques to teach in a standard way for folks to get started. You can't say that there are x number of ways to do it and only people from county Y can teach it. You have to start with something basic and get the student reasonably proficient. Then they can expand their skill set (get better than the teacher) Look at rolling. There are a gazillion ways to roll a kayak, but most people start with a Pawlata, them work up to a screw roll. WW fanatics will learn the c-c as well. Then maybe a hand roll. The real keeners will then add several other rolls. But it usually starts with a basic sweep roll like the Pawlata. Imagine if every person had to learn a different technique just because there are many. So with paddle strokes. There are many ways of doing "Euro" paddle strokes. I still question the logic of teaching a flatwater racing skill like leg pushing in a tight sea kayak. However, collectively, we teach that sort of thing. I took two advanced paddling lessons at a symposium recently. The two instructors taught _completely_ different techniques. The first advocated a close-hand-position, high angle, high stroke rate technique, while the other showed us a wider hand position, lower angle and lower stroke rate technique. Which one is "right"? I don't have a serious problem with taking a standard approach to a "Greenland" paddle stroke. Get people started. Some will use it forever, others will investigate other variations. The variations will come from the Greenlanders. And from others. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Now my kayak has been stolen, a Pirouette S, granite in front, tangerine in back, two beaners, three red airbags, no other marks. I'll look up the serial number. Cut off my truck in Port Townsend. Luckily (for me) they left the Dawn Treader on. Andree Hurley Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637 On-line Editor - http://www.canoekayak.com Other Kayaking - http://www.onwatersports.com Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/HDC/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 9:50 PM -0400 7/7/99, Michael Daly wrote: >Jack Martin wrote: > >> An interesting thread. > >Agreed > >> Why >> should we, as a worldwide paddling community, even attempt to stardardize, >> package, wholesale and retail some self-styled "Greenland style" when it >> appears that there is such a diversity of style and technique at the source? > >Because we have to start somewhere? > >This reminds me of my other sporting fanaticism, Nordic skiing (cross >country to some). The advent of freestyle techniques in the early >eighties threw everything in the air. It took a long time to sort out >the good and bad techniques. Now there are standard techniques >that are being taught. However, not all the top racers use them! > <snip> > >I don't have a serious problem with taking a standard approach to >a "Greenland" paddle stroke. Get people started. Some will use >it forever, others will investigate other variations. The variations >will come from the Greenlanders. And from others. > >Mike > I don't think the debate here is so much whether there should be certification for techniques. That is another interesting debate, but the question is should this particular certification be called "Greenland". There are valid reasons to create some standards for paddling technique. There seems to be only one reason why these standards need to be called by a name whose rightful owner finds insulting. The reason for calling the techniques in question "Greenland" seems primarily to be marketing driven. The idea that you are learning the very same techniques used by the original kayakers has a lot of appeal. The people who want to teach those techniques know that. Classes in "Greenland" technique will sell well. Being certified in Greenland technique gives the impression that you are as good a paddler as an Inuit. If you sell classes, this is good for business. If you are interested in becoming the best paddler you can be, you will want to learn the skills of the Inuits since they originated kayaking, they must be the best. Now imagine you are a native greenlander and you hear someone is proposing a scheme to make money based on your reputation and they are leaving you completely out of the loop. I think you would feel a little put-out. Calling the techniques in question "Free Style" would provide all the benefits of a certification process without insulting anyone. However, it would be harder to sell. "Free Style" does not have the impact as "Greenland" so even if the techniques were exactly the same the certification would not sell as well. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The reason for calling the techniques in question "Greenland" seems > primarily to be marketing driven. The idea that you are learning the very > same techniques used by the original kayakers has a lot of appeal. The Something that bothers me here... Calling something that is to be taught to recreational kayak tourers, to look at birds, campout, or whatnot, "Greenland" seems just bizarre. The heart of a "Greenland" style is to be able to spear a seal and bring it back home, on a kayak, exposed to bad wind conditions and spectacularly cold water. Now what exactly is a recreational non-harvesting kayaker supposed to do with these skills? Now maybe in Texas, where we have 100-300lb gar, that are huntable from a kayak using a spear/harpoon rig, this might make sense. But somehow, I don't picture the ACA teaching and certifying people on how to spear, fight, and return to camp with a dangerous 100lb+ animal. Texas record Alligator gar, from the Nueces river, 302 lbs, 90" long. And big gar, 5'+ are common all along the coastal plain. > people who want to teach those techniques know that. Classes in > "Greenland" technique will sell well. Being certified in Greenland > technique gives the impression that you are as good a paddler as an Inuit. If you aren't as good a hunter as an Inuit, then why bother learning skills optimized for hunting like the Inuit? > Now imagine you are a native greenlander and you hear someone is proposing > a scheme to make money based on your reputation and they are leaving you > completely out of the loop. I think you would feel a little put-out. I'd love to learn how to do the drag-me trick from a real Greenlander. Imagine the amount of show stopping drag you could put on a 150lb gar that you have just speared by tipping the boat on its side perpendicular to the run of the fish. Then when the fish lets up or turns, being able to roll back up to continue the fight and subdue the fish. Imagine the looks of awe and terror as you drag your 7ft long prize behind your kayak on the way back to the put it. THAT is something to learn. How you diddle your paddle back and forth seems to trivialize the tradition... At least in my grumpy opinion. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > >> While "sea >> kayaking" is being taught without any particular style name attached to >> it, it too has a spectrum of styles and approaches. And some of it can >> be quite doctrinaire. Take assisted rescues involving 1 kayaker >> assisting a capsized kayaker to get back into his/her kayak. I know of >> about five different approaches to this. But, boy, trying doing one >> that the instructor doesn't favor and you get tongue-lashed and put down >> immediately. > Steve Cramer responded: >I would suggest that this is a function of the instructor, and not the >body that accredited him or her. > I would suggest the culture or system that spawned that instructor was a rigid hierarchy governed by rigid rules that have hardened right along with the certifiers arteries. The instructor was most likely browbeaten by the certifier and now its his turn to administer the beatings. Much the same as abused children are likely to grow up to be abusers themselves. I hope Chuck Holst was right when he wrote: > I understand that in traditional Greenland culture, children and >other people are expected to learn by themselves by observing others, >and that it is considered impolite to criticize how another person >does something. It is a great concept for learning, one that will lead to self control and real competence (as opposed to outside control and imitation competence. There are no limiting rules or criticism to stifle creativity or prevent one from progressing beyond the "teacher". Following rules creates only the imitation of competence. Or is it, the imitation of imitation competence that results from an "only one right way" carrot and whip approach. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > >rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > >> While "sea > >> kayaking" is being taught without any particular style name attached to > >> it, it too has a spectrum of styles and approaches. And some of it can > >> be quite doctrinaire. Take assisted rescues involving 1 kayaker > >> assisting a capsized kayaker to get back into his/her kayak. I know of > >> about five different approaches to this. But, boy, trying doing one > >> that the instructor doesn't favor and you get tongue-lashed and put down > >> immediately. > > > Steve Cramer responded: > > >I would suggest that this is a function of the instructor, and not the > >body that accredited him or her. > > And now here's Matt: > > I would suggest the culture or system that spawned that instructor was a > rigid hierarchy governed by rigid rules that have hardened right along with > the certifiers arteries. The instructor was most likely browbeaten by the > certifier and now its his turn to administer the beatings. Much the same as > abused children are likely to grow up to be abusers themselves. > > I hope Chuck Holst was right when he wrote: > > I understand that in traditional Greenland culture, children and > >other people are expected to learn by themselves by observing others, > >and that it is considered impolite to criticize how another person > >does something. > > It is a great concept for learning, one that will lead to self control and > real competence (as opposed to outside control and imitation competence. > There are no limiting rules or criticism to stifle creativity or prevent one > from progressing beyond the "teacher". Following rules creates only the > imitation of competence. Or is it, the imitation of imitation competence > that results from an "only one right way" carrot and whip approach. Hoooeee! Boy, I thought I was curmudgeonly, but Matt, you have me beat! <g> I have stayed out of this debate until now, because I've seen the movie, and the two major variations of the ending. Matt sits in my camp: any "procedure," be it rescue or paddling style, advocated as "the" only way is wrong for some situation somewhere. And, Murphy's Law being operable everywhere, it is certain all of us will encounter a situation demanding some variant of the "official" rescue/paddling style we learned. Always been a shake and bake guy. However, I have learned a lot from instruction, even poor instruction. I think the attraction of "certified schools of paddling technique" is that the certification provides the feeling of security. Overdrawn example quote: "Oh, wheew! I passed that rescue class, now I'm safe. I don't have to think about rescue any more." That may be the most dangerous aspect of certification protocols. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR certified curmudgeon (American Curmudgeon Association, British Curmudgeon Union, and Ph.D.) -- Everybody knows what B.S. is, right? Well, M.S. means "more of the same," and Ph.D. stands for "piled higher and deeper." <hee hee!> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack; Good point. Though I have purposely stayed away from ACA accreditation I have a number of friends, whom I consider skilled paddlers, who have all said that the ACA is notorious in its narrow view of paddling style and makes little or no allowance for variations in form due to the many variables in paddlers, boats, etc. (An example of this would be the placement of a bow rudder. Correct placement varies considerably depending more on boat design, paddler size and flexibility, presence or absense and speed of current, amount of lean etc than it does on just sticking it in a specific place.) It is this dogmatic approach to seakayaking that has kept me away from the ACA. I have not found this to be true for the BCU which does allow for variables with thier concomitant variations. BTW, the BCU and the Nordkapp Trust are not synonymous. The Nordkapp Trust does not represent the BCU and vise versa. One of the fellows I was paddling with in Scotland a couple of weeks ago is head of coaching for the BCU. In our conversation about the ACA certifying Greenland technique no mention was made of the BCU doing the same thing. John Winskill Jack Martin wrote: > > An interesting thread. We seem to be concerned --- justifiably --- that the > ACA or BCU or any other "accreditation" group will finally discover "the" > Greenlandic technique in paddling and patent it for sale. The real problem, > from my experience, is that there does not seem to *be* any one accepted, > standard Greenlandic technique --- at least not in Greenland. > > I remember first watching Maligiaq at the DelMarVa meeting last fall and > wondering how someone with so much recognition within the Greenland paddling > community could have such a terrible Greenland stroke! But "terrible" by > whose standards? My guess is that there is a continuum of paddling styles > in Greenland, and Maligiaq represents just one beautiful point on that > continuum; by inference, there may be lots of other styles of paddling > within the Greenland communities, nots superior or inferior to the style > Maligiaq showed us, which all fall within true Greenland strokes. Why > should we, as a worldwide paddling community, even attempt to stardardize, > package, wholesale and retail some self-styled "Greenland style" when it > appears that there is such a diversity of style and technique at the source? > > Jack Martin > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Note: snippage happens below. I only kept stuff I wanted to respond to. Dave Kruger wrote: > > Matt Broze wrote: > > > > >rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > > >> But, boy, trying doing one [rescue] that the instructor > > >> doesn't favor and you get tongue-lashed and put down > > >> immediately. > > > > > Steve Cramer responded: > > > > >I would suggest that this is a function of the instructor, and not the > > >body that accredited him or her. > > > > And now here's Matt: > > > > I would suggest the culture or system that spawned that instructor was a > > rigid hierarchy governed by rigid rules that have hardened right along with > > the certifiers arteries. The instructor was most likely browbeaten by the > > certifier and now its his turn to administer the beatings. Much the same as > > abused children are likely to grow up to be abusers themselves. Well, having taken 2 ACA IDW/ICWs as a student (2 different disciplines) and organized a third as assistant IT, (That's 3 more than Matt apparently has direct experience of ;) ), all I can say is, you Northwest types just haven't seen good instruction like we got in the other corner of the country. I was not browbeaten. I did not browbeat. You really believe that Randy Carlson is a hard man with hardened arteries? Matt Levin adminsters beatings, even metaphorical? Roger Schumann is abusive? Anne Gould is rigid? It is to laugh. Those are all the ACA Coastal IT's I know. Feel free to point out the ogres to me so I can avoid them. Note, however, that these folks come from the other corners of the country--SE, NE, SW, NCentral. Must be that awful WA-OR weather that makes instructors up there so hard to get along with. > Matt sits in my camp: any "procedure," be it rescue or paddling style, > advocated as "the" only way is wrong for some situation somewhere. And, > Murphy's Law being operable everywhere, it is certain all of us will encounter > a situation demanding some variant of the "official" rescue/paddling style we > learned. Who could disagree with this? However, please show me anywhere in any ACA or BCU document that any technique is "the" only way. > > Always been a shake and bake guy. However, I have learned a lot from > instruction, even poor instruction. I've learned from poor instruction, too, but mostly what not to do next time I'm instructing. I've also subtly instructed instructors in how to teach. > > I think the attraction of "certified schools of paddling technique" is that > the certification provides the feeling of security. Overdrawn example quote: > "Oh, wheew! I passed that rescue class, now I'm safe. I don't have to think > about rescue any more." That may be the most dangerous aspect of > certification protocols. Dave's got a strange idea about the purpose of certification. The security it imparts has to do with the consumer of the instruction being able to feel secure that the instructor has satisfied someone--other than his employer--that he know something about paddling, teaching, safety, and rescue. The idea that having passed a rescue class confers perpetual safety is absurd. If a student is fool enough to think so, it really doesn't matter whether his instructor was certified or not. Before you fire up the reply button, I'm not saying that all certified instructors are wonderful and all non-certs are incompetent. Matt knows tons more about kayaking than most ACA instructors ever will. But I spent some time last year among a group of non-certified instructors who were all accepting money for teaching people how to paddle. Their teaching and paddling skills ranged from acceptable to clueless. If they complete an ACA certification course, they will be better instructors, I guarantee. -- Steve Cramer Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Holst wrote: >I'm with John Heath on this one. One of the questions I had when I first >heard about the proposed ACA Greenland certification was which Greenland >technique? Another, related, one was who is going to certify the >certifiers? Good question. Here is another: who certified the ones that started the ACA sea kayaking programs in the first place? American Canoe Assoc. I believe is what the ACA stands for. Looks to me they just kind of elbowed their way in to Sea Kayaking and made themselves the authority. Sorry to see so many kayakers have been sucked in lately. >Questions of respect aside (if it is possible to put them >entirely aside), probably most of what is taught as Greenland technique >in this country is of questionable authenticity. Greg Stamer has written >of the differences between Maligiaq Padilla's style and what is normally >taught as Greenland style in North America; from what I have heard, >George Gronseth, who studied Greenland style kayaking in Greenland, >teaches a much different style than that taught elsewhere in North >America. George should probably be put out of business, I don't believe anybody has ever certified him to teach poor impressionable kayaker wanabes ;-) Actually, I don't think he would let them if they tried. I sure wouldn't. On second thought that makes him a lot like the ACA, uncertified as sea kayakers. SNIP >This presents a possible cultural problem, however: >I understand that in traditional Greenland culture, children and >other people are expected to learn by themselves by observing others, >and that it is considered impolite to criticise how another person >does something. This might create obstacles to creating a standard >instructional program. However, maybe Greenland culture has changed >enough that this would no longer be a problem. I hope not. What a teaching concept!! The ACA should try to imitate THAT Greenlander skill. Matt Broze Never certified by anybody and proud of it. http://www.marinerkayaks.com Not a member of any trade association and proud of that too. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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