Chuck, Now Chuck, I know you like your greenland paddle. I enjoy mine as well. But its going a bit far to suggest that the greenland paddle is always the paddle of choice. I don't know anyone who uses a greenland paddle when repeated and rapid acceleration is required. I'm not sure that's the right phrase. What I'm driving at is when you are in white water or heavy surf, you need to make very rapid direction and speed changes. There's no doubt that the "euro-paddle" with wide blades is better in such settings. I know a greenland bigot may disagree with me, but ask yourself the following. Have you ever seen a kayak surfer use a greenland paddlle? I know a greenland paddle would be fine for a launch and landing across the surf zone --- but if you are going out for a day of serious surfing, wouldn't you rather have a wide-blade Euro-paddle? I know I would and I use both kinds of paddles (and wing paddles too). I don't know many greenland paddlers, but the ones I've paddled with switch to wide blade paddles in white water and in the surf zone. Greenland paddles are great, but lets not start "over-selling" them. There really are situations where wide blade paddles are better. --Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: CHUCK_at_multitech.com [SMTP:CHUCK_at_multitech.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 10:45 AM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Feathered v Unfeathere > > >> > Maybe some of the converts to Greenland paddles are really refugees from > feathered paddles. I know I've been happy to paddle along with my 2x4 > while > others "discuss" the configuration of their Euro paddles. When conditions > mandate a wider blade it is the wind that is making that demand and that > means > I suffer the elbow pain of having used the feathered paddle. I haven't > found a > satisfactory alternative yet. > > Joan > >> > > FWIW, I was paddling unfeathered (but not nude) before I switched to a > Greenland paddle. I don't understand what you mean by "when conditions > mandate a wider blade." Greenlanders seem to have managed okay in high > winds without wide blades. Personally, I find the narrow blades of a > Greenland paddle an advantage in high winds, since they are affected > less by wind than wide blades. Also note that you can increase the > thrust of a Greenland paddle by switching to a high stroke, a sliding > stroke, or a faster cadence. > > Chuck Holst > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:18 AM 8/11/99 -0700, Mattson, Timothy G wrote: >Have you ever seen a kayak surfer use a greenland paddlle? I know a >greenland paddle would be fine for a launch and landing across the surf zone >--- but if you are going out for a day of serious surfing, wouldn't you >rather have a wide-blade Euro-paddle? Actually I often use my Greenland paddle with my Island wave ski for "serious surfing" and I know of a handful of others who do the same. I have also been playing with using hand-paddles in surf (after getting past the breakers) and after that even a Greenland blade feels like tremendous overkill. You will find paddlers using hand-paddles in whitewater as well. Often the best paddle for the job is simply the one that you are most comfortable with, or have the most fun using. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- Greg Stamer wrote: >At 11:18 AM 8/11/99 -0700, Mattson, Timothy G wrote: >>Have you ever seen a kayak surfer use a greenland paddlle? I know a >>greenland paddle would be fine for a launch and landing across the surf zone >>--- but if you are going out for a day of serious surfing, wouldn't you >>rather have a wide-blade Euro-paddle? > >Actually I often use my Greenland paddle with my Island wave ski for >"serious surfing" and I know of a handful of others who do the same. I have >also been playing with using hand-paddles in surf (after getting past the >breakers) and after that even a Greenland blade feels like tremendous >overkill. You will find paddlers using hand-paddles in whitewater as well. > >Often the best paddle for the job is simply the one that you are most >comfortable with, or have the most fun using. > Sure you can surf with a narrow Greenland paddle but you won't be able to accelerate as fast as you would with a short paddle with wider blades so you won't be able to catch the faster waves as far out as you could if you optimized the bite of the blade and sped up the stroke rate with a shorter wider paddle (lowering the "gear" ratio for quicker acceleration). If possible I use my 200cm river paddle for playing in the surf. (And being feathered a wave won't catch both blades at once while some part of me tries to go through the middle--but we've been here before too.;-) Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/11/99 8:17:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gstamer_at_magicnet.net writes: << Actually I often use my Greenland paddle with my Island wave ski for "serious surfing" and I know of a handful of others who do the same. I have also been playing with using hand-paddles in surf (after getting past the breakers) and after that even a Greenland blade feels like tremendous overkill. You will find paddlers using hand-paddles in whitewater as well. >> OK, I was really trying not to sucked into this one, but what can I say - I'm weak! Sure, you can use a Greenland paddle to surf with. You can also use hand paddles. In fact, I have been known to throw my paddle away on a wave just for yucks. I will often be seen surfing sit-on-tops standing up! So what? These are all stunts! I just popped in a tape of the Santa Cruz Surf Fest and guess what? I don't see one single person competing with either hand paddles, a Greenland paddle, or a non-feathered paddle. Hmmmmmmmmm, I wonder why that is? Believe me when I say that it's not a matter of tradition. I know a number of surfers who are experimenting with building their own boats because they all have an idea of what would make a better surf tool and they are trying to get an advantage over the other guys. For touring I like a non-feathered paddle, but I can use a feathered just as easily without any problem. I have never missed a reflexive brace with either type of paddle. However, for serious surfing there are some real advantages to using a feathered sport paddle. I cannot think of any advantage to a non-feathered sport paddle, or a Greenland paddle in the surf, other then because that's what you've got and your used to it. Of course using that logic I suppose you will next be telling me that a 17 foot sea kayak is superior in the surf to a 10 foot surf boat. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott wrote: >I just popped in a tape of the Santa Cruz >Surf Fest and guess what? I don't see >one single person competing with either >hand paddles, a Greenland paddle, or a >non-feathered paddle. At the last two Santa Cruz surf contests I also noticed that everyone was using feathered paddles. I guessed that this was because the competitors often have a background in whitewater river boating, where paddles seem to always be feathered. (Although they often go down to 45, or even 30 degrees - so what's the difference? OK, OK, I won't go there.) :-) I did notice one fellow at the last Santa Cruz contest with a nonfeathered paddle competing with the top boaters (and doing quite well). I went to the info board and looked up his name. It said George Gronseth. Frank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:24 AM 8/12/99 -0700, Frank Lucian wrote: >Scott wrote: >>I just popped in a tape of the Santa Cruz >>Surf Fest and guess what? I don't see >>one single person competing with either >>hand paddles, a Greenland paddle, or a >>non-feathered paddle. > >At the last two Santa Cruz surf contests I also noticed that everyone >was using feathered paddles. I guessed that this was because the >competitors often have a background in whitewater river boating, where >paddles seem to always be feathered. (Although they often go down to 45, >or even 30 degrees - so what's the difference? OK, OK, I won't go >there.) :-) I will. I really don't quite understand why whitewater paddlers use feathered paddles at all. Someone once suggested that when whitewater kayaking started out that the boats and paddles were adapted from sea kayaks (since they'd been around a lot longer). I really don't know much about the history of when whitewater kayaking actually started or when sea kayakers were first using a feathered paddle but it's easy to see how whitewater boats have progressively become shorter and shorter and the paddles have smaller degrees of feather as the sport grows. Perhaps there is some other advantage to a feathered paddle other than it's performance in wind that I'm missing but since wind doesn't effect whitewater paddlers to the extent that a paddler on open seas or a large lake does I wonder why whitewater paddles have any feathering at all. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/12/99 8:29:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, murpho_at_webtv.net writes: << I did notice one fellow at the last Santa Cruz contest with a nonfeathered paddle competing with the top boaters (and doing quite well). I went to the info board and looked up his name. It said George Gronseth. >> I competed (unfeatherd) back in the days when they had a Long boat division. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:44 AM 8/12/99 EDT, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > OK, I was really trying not to sucked into this one, but what can I say - >I'm weak! Sure, you can use a Greenland paddle to surf with. You can also use >hand paddles. In fact, I have been known to throw my paddle away on a wave >just for yucks. I will often be seen surfing sit-on-tops standing up! So >what? These are all stunts! What is your point? Unless you are trying to negotiate hazardous surf to save your life or are involved in competition, you could view all surf play as "just for yucks". As long as you can safely maneuver your boat and obey proper surf etiquette I personally don't care what you choose to surf with. > I just popped in a tape of the Santa Cruz Surf Fest and guess what? I >don't see one single person competing with either hand paddles, a Greenland >paddle, or a non-feathered paddle. Hmmmmmmmmm, I wonder why that is? Believe >me when I say that it's not a matter of tradition. Around here 45 degree feathered paddles for wave skis are fairly common. A few years ago it was 85 degrees and just over ten years ago all to be found were hard 90 degree feathers. I would bet that once some hot shot wins a major surf competition with a revolutionary *zero degree* feather then you will see more of them in action. There is plenty of peer pressure in kayaking to either use what your buddies use or to emulate the local paddling god. I have plenty of experience with both wide feathered and unfeathered paddles in the surf zone and don't find either design to offer a significant advantage. A competant paddler will do equally well with either. I often hear the argument that the pushing blade of a feathered paddle will slice through a wave rather than be stopped. Although your mileage may vary, I have never had this problem with an unfeathered paddle. If a wave is so large that it is going to break on or over my chest, I "become a needle" by kissing the deck, adopt a roll setup position and spear the wave. Usually the wave is shed quickly and cleanly and with very little turbulence. The whole procedure consumes only a few seconds and causes very little disturbance to my paddling cadence. I learned this technique early in my surfing career from Wayne Horodowich and find it extremely useful. If you choose to keep your torso erect and continue paddling in such a scenario then yes, your feathered blade may slice through the wave but if the wave breaks on your chest, you can be back-endered and/or slammed painfully onto your rear deck. You may also be struck in the head or neck by your paddle shaft regardless of feather. As they say, been there, done that. If you insist on some advantages of unfeathered blades in surf, I offer the following observations. I find that an unfeathered blade is somewhat easier to keep hold of while getting severely "maytagged" since it has a lower profile when held against the hull and is less likely to be caught by violent underwater turbulence. Likewise, since most days of big water in my area are "victory at sea" conditions and are often accompanied by high winds, I find an unfeathered blade to be more neutral in these conditions with little tendency to spin, dive or catch a beam wind. Of course in this kind of wind a Greenland paddle truly excels. On a very subjective note, I enjoy the feeling of symmetry when linking strokes that is lost (on me) with the wrist cock of a feathered blade. >I cannot think of any advantage >to a non-feathered sport paddle, or a Greenland paddle in the surf, other >then because that's what you've got and your used to it. Of course using that >logic I suppose you will next be telling me that a 17 foot sea kayak is >superior in the surf to a 10 foot surf boat. Whoa man, ease up on the sarcasm! No one has posted that a Greenland paddle is optimized for surf play, only that an experienced paddler will do just fine with a Greenland blade or any paddle of their choice if they want to enjoy the surf. If, on the other hand, you are really looking for the *most efficient* paddle for surf play then you have to decide what it is you are trying to maximize. Is it fun? Is it more points in serious competition? Is it maximizing air time on an aerial? Is it having money to eat with rather than buying that $350 paddle? Is it simply making it to shore dry and alive? And so on. Your criteria will likely be different than mine. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Greg Stamer wrote: <SNIP> >If a wave is so large that it is going to break on or over my chest, I >"become a needle" by kissing the deck, adopt a roll setup position and >spear the wave. Usually the wave is shed quickly and cleanly and with very >little turbulence. The whole procedure consumes only a few seconds and >causes very little disturbance to my paddling cadence. I learned this >technique early in my surfing career from Wayne Horodowich and find it >extremely useful. If you choose to keep your torso erect and continue >paddling in such a scenario then yes, your feathered blade may slice >through the wave but if the wave breaks on your chest, you can be >back-endered and/or slammed painfully onto your rear deck. You may also be >struck in the head or neck by your paddle shaft regardless of feather. As >they say, been there, done that. Yes all good techniques, but if an error happens with an unfeathered paddle there is a chance that there may be a lot more force behind it because with the unfeathered paddle the breaker can grab both blades at once and drive them in the same direction at the same time. All the broken paddles (from surf) we have seen or replaced at our store under warrantee (that I can remember) were unfeathered. One paddler did an ender and fell through his paddle. One was hanging on to his paddle as hard as he could as the turbulence tried to yank it away from him while he was upside down waiting for things to calm down enough to roll. His paddle snapped at the joint between his hands. Most others simply said they were upside down and in such turbulance it was all they could do to hang onto there paddle and they didn't know exactly what happened to break it. > >If you insist on some advantages of unfeathered blades in surf, I offer the >following observations. I find that an unfeathered blade is somewhat easier >to keep hold of while getting severely "maytagged" since it has a lower >profile when held against the hull and is less likely to be caught by >violent underwater turbulence. Feathered paddles fit nicely against the deck in this "ready to roll" position too. The rear blade vertical against the side and the fore blade laying along the deck. So I have no problem holding a feathered paddle in the "needle" position which I also adopt when punching through a wave--but because of the less serious consequences of not getting the paddle into position soon enough I might get an extra stroke in to help me make it through the break and not get rear endered). When it is really turbulent down there ("maytagged") it is unlikely you are going to get any paddle to lay against the deck unless you started with it tightly held there before the wave broke. I have often had to let go of one hand when a feathered paddle threatened to yank my shoulder out of the socket. The paddle may have gyrated around for a while before it calmed down enough to grab it again and roll up, but I can't recall ever having it completely yanked out of my hand even when it hit the sand. I will theorize that an unfeathered paddle would be harder to hold on to (because of the both blades at once problem) but gyrate less if held by one hand. >Likewise, since most days of big water in my >area are "victory at sea" conditions and are often accompanied by high >winds, I find an unfeathered blade to be more neutral in these conditions >with little tendency to spin, dive or catch a beam wind. Spinning and diving seem to be problems with feathers less than 75 degrees and more than 15 degrees. (see earlier post for side wind comparrisons) >Of course in this >kind of wind a Greenland paddle truly excels. Unless, as you said early in your later post, you are paddling into it. (I'll admit it is lots better than big unfeathered blades then though) >On a very subjective note, I >enjoy the feeling of symmetry when linking strokes that is lost (on me) >with the wrist cock of a feathered blade. So, quit cocking your wrists when you paddle feathered and regain the symmetry. > ><SNIP> If, on the other hand, you are really looking for the *most >efficient* paddle for surf play then you have to decide what it is you are >trying to maximize. Is it fun? Is it more points in serious competition? Is >it maximizing air time on an aerial? Is it having money to eat with rather >than buying that $350 paddle? Is it simply making it to shore dry and >alive? And so on. Your criteria will likely be different than mine. My criteria is mostly the ability to a catch faster waves (further out from the break zone) to get a longer ride. (Or even more often to catch faster wind waves when the waves start to get out of reach of catching as they get longer over a longer fetch as you move downwind.) I don't like losing the wave I have put so much effort into catching. Let me say that I agree with just about everything Greg has said in these posts regarding technique and a live and let live attitude to other paddlers ways of doing things. There is no one right answer for everybody. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:21 AM 8/13/99 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: >Yes all good techniques, but if an error happens with an unfeathered paddle >there is a chance that there may be a lot more force behind it because with >the unfeathered paddle the breaker can grab both blades at once and drive >them in the same direction at the same time. Matt, This has been an interesting discussion, however I still regard this scenario as a non-issue. I am responding because I hear this scenario argued all the time by feathered blade advocates as THE reason to use a feathered paddle in the surf. This is a great topic to discuss around the campfire but in real life I don't find that it pans out. Consider that for a breaker to grab both blades of an unfeathered paddle at the same time requires that the large surface area of your torso is also presented to the wave. The wave will break on your torso and you will be pounded regardless of paddle type. A feathered blade will also be driven backward in this case but one blade will react markedly different than the other. One could argue that in a worse case scenario this could cause one arm to be jerked violently backward causing injury or dislocation. Of course this line of reasoning is pointless. You could dream up literally hundreds of scenarios that favor one paddle design over the other, especially if you throw in a large dose of paddler error and poor technique. Depending on the scenario the feather of your paddle may be a help or a hindrance. The original scenario will only happen if the paddler makes several major mistakes. An experienced paddler will time their passage through the surf zone to avoid breakers and will "spear the wave" or intentionally capsize if they miscalculate. The surf zone can be a very unforgiving environment. If you violate a cardinal rule such as letting a wave break on your torso or getting shoreward of your kayak if you exit, then you will pay the consequences. You cannot blame the equipment for gross failures in technique or judgment. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Greg Stamer <gstamer_at_magicnet.net> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Saturday, August 14, 1999 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Greenland vs. wide blades (was feathered vs unfeathered) >At 12:21 AM 8/13/99 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: >>Yes all good techniques, but if an error happens with an unfeathered paddle >>there is a chance that there may be a lot more force behind it because with >>the unfeathered paddle the breaker can grab both blades at once and drive >>them in the same direction at the same time. > Greg Stamer replied: > >This has been an interesting discussion, however I still regard this >scenario as a non-issue. I am responding because I hear this scenario >argued all the time by feathered blade advocates as THE reason to use a >feathered paddle in the surf. This is a great topic to discuss around the >campfire but in real life I don't find that it pans out. Consider that for >a breaker to grab both blades of an unfeathered paddle at the same time >requires that the large surface area of your torso is also presented to the >wave. No, it only requires that your paddle be somewhat in front of you and the breaker catch the leading blade and rotate it around. You could have this happen from your "needle" position if you didn't get your leading blade down to the deck in time. >The wave will break on your torso and you will be pounded regardless >of paddle type. A feathered blade will also be driven backward in this case >but one blade will react markedly different than the other. Yes one blade will slice through the breaker. >One could argue >that in a worse case scenario this could cause one arm to be jerked >violently backward causing injury or dislocation. Unlikely, since your body can rotate to, but even if so it is still preferable to being garroted by the shaft. > >Of course this line of reasoning is pointless. You could dream up literally >hundreds of scenarios that favor one paddle design over the other, >especially if you throw in a large dose of paddler error and poor >technique. Depending on the scenario the feather of your paddle may be a >help or a hindrance. I'm listening, lets explore some of the pro unfeathered scenarios you can dream up for the surf zone. >The original scenario will only happen if the paddler >makes several major mistakes. An experienced paddler will time their >passage through the surf zone to avoid breakers and will "spear the wave" >or intentionally capsize if they miscalculate. The surf zone can be a very >unforgiving environment. If you violate a cardinal rule such as letting a >wave break on your torso or getting shoreward of your kayak if you exit, >then you will pay the consequences. You cannot blame the equipment for >gross failures in technique or judgment. Sure I can. If one piece of equipment allows for a greater margin of error we'll chalk one up for that side. It only takes a little error in this case not several major mistakes. Say you don't get your paddle down to the deck into the spear position quite quick enough. If the wave catches the blade at enough of an angle (probably less than 25 degrees) it will be swung around until it is flat to the wave. If feathered it will keep on swinging until it has rotated through nearly 180 degrees as the other blade slices into the wave. If it is unfeathered it will lock in at 90 degrees as the second blade is also caught by the wave and resemble a fast moving "limbo" bar. The same mechanism that suddenly swings a boat sideways that is not positioned well enough to punch through a breaker also works on the paddle (on the long axis and on the long axis of each blade <width> as well). DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT JUST ROTATING THE BLADES OF AN UNFEATHERED PADDLE SO BOTH BLADES SLICE INTO THE WAVE IN FRONT OF YOU. THE LEADING EDGE OF THE BLADES WILL BE HIT FIRST AND IF NOT PERFECTLY PLACED TO SLICE THROUGH, IT WILL BE SUDDENLY ROTATED AND SPUN IN YOUR GRIP UNTIL IT TOO IS FLAT TO THE WAVE FACE. "Do the "Limbo", How low can you go". I'd rather be caught downwave from my kayak in the breakers, I can probably dive under it. If I was habituated to paddling unfeathered I probably wouldn't change feather because of this hazard, but I wouldn't deny there is a hazard either and I would be especially careful to avoid it because the price of an error here is far higher when using an unfeathered paddle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/12/99 9:54:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gstamer_at_magicnet.net writes: << Whoa man, ease up on the sarcasm! No one has posted that a Greenland paddle is optimized for surf play, only that an experienced paddler will do just fine with a Greenland blade or any paddle of their choice if they want to enjoy the surf. >> I have had a lot of fun in the surf with sea kayaks using unfeathered paddles. But I think the gist of this thread was to discuss just what equipment IS optimized for surf play. I never said one can't use a un-feathered paddle in the surf. In fact I have tried to preface my comments with the fact that I will essentially surf anything that floats using whatever equipment I have at hand. Like you say, the bottom line of surfing is to have fun. However, I do strongly disagree with those people who have been so bold as to actually state that a un-feathered paddle is BETTER in the surf. There may be some great surfers out there using un-feathered paddles. Perhaps one day one of them will win all of the top surfing contests. It doesn't change the fact that feathered paddles are better in the surf then un-feathered or Greenland paddles. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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