Elaine; The trick is to attach the biners far enough back so that they are impeded from coming forward by a deck fitting. You want to be pulling from under the boat or at least from well below the level of the toggle. Using someting other than a beener in the middle is fine so long as it is strong enough and doesn't slip. The design for this gadget came from Nigel Foster. He first showed me his several years ago and I've used one ever since. The whole point of using this system is to keep the victims boat from yawing. John Winskill ----- Original Message ----- From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu> To: johncw <johncw_at_narrows.com> Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] High and Low Towing and Towing Gadget > Hi- your tow harness rig sounds great. I don't understand why it would > give you a much lower connection point to the towee, though. Doesn't the > middle biner just rise up to about deck level when you pull on it? Or is > the harness length too short to permit that? > > Also, if instead of a middle biner at a fixed point in the middle of the > harness, as you describe, suppose you just used one longer line going > through the center of the middle biner, so that the biner could slide > along the line? That would allow the towee to yaw, but the tower wouldn't > feel it. e > > Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/13/99 8:34:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, johncw_at_narrows.com writes: << A really nifty gadget that is handy for towing can be made from a couple short pieces of rope and 3 caribeeners (sp?). <SNIP> To use it clip one of the end caribeeners to the perimeter deck line on one side of the victims bow then reach under the bow and clip the other end caribeener on the opposite deck line. Attach your tow line to the center caribeener and tow. >> Great application of a technique which has traditionally been used for towing tenders and other boats. Question: Have you ever tried the same sort of thing on the towing boat, placing the pulling end of the rope beneath the hull to avoid stern and rudder entanglement? Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
><< A really nifty gadget that is handy for towing can be made from a couple >short > pieces of rope and 3 caribeeners (sp?). <SNIP> To use it clip one > of the end caribeeners to the perimeter deck line on one side of the victims > bow then reach under the bow and clip the other end caribeener on the >opposite > deck line. Attach your tow line to the center caribeener and tow. >> <SNIP> >Question: Have you ever tried the same sort of thing on the towing boat, >placing the pulling end of the rope beneath the hull to avoid stern and >rudder entanglement? .....Three questions/comments: 1. Why would you want to elevate your stern when towing? 2. This device on the tower's stern would seriously impair maneuverability: you wouldn't be able to turn as needed because the harness would tend to keep you aligned to the towed boat. 3. How would you disconnect quickly in an emergency (say, a capsize)? Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/14/99 5:00:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bobvolin_at_bestweb.net writes: << .....Three questions/comments: 1. Why would you want to elevate your stern when towing? 2. This device on the tower's stern would seriously impair maneuverability: you wouldn't be able to turn as needed because the harness would tend to keep you aligned to the towed boat. 3. How would you disconnect quickly in an emergency (say, a capsize)? >> Good Q's John. 1. I wouldn't. But even with a short (15 ft) tow, the lift seems like it would be very minimal -- you're looking at a triangle with the vertical side of around 10 to 16 inches and a 15-foot hypotenuse. 2. Seems to me to be the opposite. I have to admit that I gave this little thought before writing my original question, but what I saw as a possible *big* advantage would be the elimination of catching the tow rope on the rudder or stern. Even with rudderless Greenland-style kayaks I've had problems with the line (even when anchored to the middle of my back) hooking on one side or the other of the upturned stern. This gives the towed boat a 7-foot lever arm to turn you off course when it drifts to the side opposite the rope. If the towline was connected to a ring which could slide freely on a bridle beneath the hull, an off-center pull would slide the ring to the same side and transfer the pull to both sides of the kayak, inline with a point somewhere between the two attachment points, just behind the cockpit. Am I missing something here? 3. Connect the bridle line through two jam cleats, one on each side, near the gunnel and maybe six inches behind the cockpit. To release, pull either end of the line out of its cleat and let go of the rope, the rope would trail behind the boat and let the ring and towline slip free. IF you had nothing on your rear deck that would foul the system, you could rig the bridle and ring on top of the deck and leave it there for a short tow or tow in mild conditions when hooking the rudder/stern is no problem. When needed, undo one end of the bridle and pass it beneath the boat, hand-to-hand, thread it through the ring and run the free end through its cleat. The bridle would be length-adjustable using the cleats, but would probably be happy if long enough that the loop would reach back about halfway to the stern. Comments anyone? Like I said above, I'm just thinking out loud here, but it seems that there would be some real advantages unless you were using a kayak with an adjustable skeg and wished to deploy it during the tow *or* had a boat with a keel line with a very deep skeg at the stern. Thanks for your input. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> .....Three questions/comments: > >> > Bob's questions (>>), followed by Harold's responses (>), followed in turn by Bob's further comments: Bob:>> 1. Why would you want to elevate your stern when towing? Harold:>1. I wouldn't. But even with a short (15 ft) tow, the lift seems like it >would be very minimal -- you're looking at a triangle with the vertical side >of around 10 to 16 inches and a 15-foot hypotenuse. Bob:......OK, I see that. Bob:>> 2. This device on the tower's stern would seriously impair >> maneuverability: you wouldn't be able to turn as needed because the >> harness would tend to keep you aligned to the towed boat. Harold:>2. Seems to me to be the opposite. I have to admit that I gave this little >thought before writing my original question, but what I saw as a possible >*big* advantage would be the elimination of catching the tow rope on the >rudder or stern. Even with rudderless Greenland-style kayaks I've had >problems with the line (even when anchored to the middle of my back) hooking >on one side or the other of the upturned stern. This gives the towed boat a >7-foot lever arm to turn you off course when it drifts to the side opposite >the rope. If the towline was connected to a ring which could slide freely on >a bridle beneath the hull, an off-center pull would slide the ring to the >same side and transfer the pull to both sides of the kayak, inline with a >point somewhere between the two attachment points, just behind the cockpit. >Am I missing something here? .....It's a very appealing thought to avoid snagging the tow line on the stern. I recently experienced (was responsible for) just such a problem which resulted in a dangerous situation. Happily, the worst of it turned out to be my embarrassment, but it could have been nasty for my towees (there were two hooked up together in a training exercise that nearly went very wrong). I can see that attaching the system close to the cockpit might avoid the alignment problem, but the system seems -- at least as I imagine it at this point -- pretty cumbersome. Seems to me that when a tow becomes necessary, one would want to hook up and get going ASAP. But, as I envisage it, you'd have to rig it before you could hook up to the towee. Bob:>> 3. How would you disconnect quickly in an emergency (say, a capsize)? Harold:>3. Connect the bridle line through two jam cleats, one on each side, near >the gunnel and maybe six inches behind the cockpit. To release, pull either >end of the line out of its cleat and let go of the rope, the rope would trail >behind the boat and let the ring and towline slip free. IF you had nothing >on your rear deck that would foul the system, you could rig the bridle and >ring on top of the deck and leave it there for a short tow or tow in mild >conditions when hooking the rudder/stern is no problem. When needed, undo >one end of the bridle and pass it beneath the boat, hand-to-hand, thread it >through the ring and run the free end through its cleat. The bridle would be >length-adjustable using the cleats, but would probably be happy if long >enough that the loop would reach back about halfway to the stern. Bob:....The disconnect would work well (although you'd want to have a small supply of spare slip rings handy). Threading the bridle under the boat gets back to my previous suggestion that the system might be a bit clumsy in a situation when you want to hook up to someone in a hurry. And do you think the procedure would be practical in rough conditions? On another point: if you make the bridle fairly long, say halfway to the stern, then I believe you run into that alignment problem, although it would indeed by mitigated by the slip ring. For reasons of speed and maneuverability, I think it would be preferable to learn how to free the tow line from one's stern, and to learn that it's necessary to check the line at frequent intervals. Given my recent experience, I've practiced this and find little hardship in it. >Comments anyone? Like I said above, I'm just thinking out loud here, but it >seems that there would be some real advantages unless you were using a kayak >with an adjustable skeg and wished to deploy it during the tow *or* had a >boat with a keel line with a very deep skeg at the stern. .....Indeed, many boats have these things. To work through the problems inherent in towing and rescues in general *well in advance of actual need* is the best way to ensure that they will succeed. Surely the fouling of the tow line is a serious potential problem and a workable mechanical solution would be very welcome. But the mechanics are not the only factors we need to consider. I believe that rescue procedures and equipment solutions should be conceptualized in the context of the conditions under which they are likely to be needed. This must include rough conditions in which the rescuer's abilities and stability may be compromised. Accordingly, towing systems must be easy to deploy, easy to attach, and easy to escape. Bob Volin bobvolin_at_bestweb.net ;-> There cannot be a crisis this week; my schedule is already full. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/14/99 9:29:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bobvolin_at_bestweb.net writes: << I can see that attaching the system close to the cockpit might avoid the alignment problem, but the system seems -- at least as I imagine it at this point -- pretty cumbersome. Seems to me that when a tow becomes necessary, one would want to hook up and get going ASAP. But, as I envisage it, you'd have to rig it before you could hook up to the towee. >> Like someone else recently mentioned in this towing thread, I carry a short (15 ft) tow system as a part of my PFD for quick access and deployment, plus a longer line I can clip in to extend the system (to about 60 ft). I have used the short tow a lot for quick emergency tows or casual short-distance towing in mild conditions. I have only used the extension a few times for longer tows in rougher conditions. When I'm leading groups I usually also carry a belt-type system which can be used communally, passing the belt (and towing responsibilities) around the group (usual caveats about training people about towing, accessing conditions, etc.). The reason I'd been looking at the system we're discussing is that I've had problems of hooking the towline on the stern of the Pintail, Gulfstream, Sealution and other Greenland-stern kayaks that I commonly use, *plus* I've always envisioned mounting a workable deck-mounted system on my personal boat. I envision that this system could be left rigged with the bridle on top the boat for quick and/or casual towing (risking some stern hooking for the sake of quick deployment), but could be switched to below-boat use (in maybe 30 seconds) for longer, rougher conditions. << The disconnect would work well (although you'd want to have a small supply of spare slip rings handy).>> The towline would be tied to the ring, just as with all the vest- and belt-mounted systems we've been discussing. If you lose the ring, you've lost the entire rope. <<For reasons of speed and maneuverability, I think it would be preferable to learn how to free the tow line from one's stern, and to learn that it's necessary to check the line at frequent intervals. Given my recent experience, I've practiced this and find little hardship in it.>> In rough conditions I found it to be a PITA, although a good test of balance and bracing abilities. :^) << To work through the problems inherent in towing and rescues in general *well in advance of actual need* is the best way to ensure that they will succeed. Surely the fouling of the tow line is a serious potential problem and a workable mechanical solution would be very welcome. But the mechanics are not the only factors we need to consider. I believe that rescue procedures and equipment solutions should be conceptualized in the context of the conditions under which they are likely to be needed. This must include rough conditions in which the rescuer's abilities and stability may be compromised. Accordingly, towing systems must be easy to deploy, easy to attach, and easy to escape. >> AMEN. And I would add *flexible*. You need to have a system which matches the needs and conditions of the moment, which are constantly changing. I have achieved a fair amount of flexibility by carrying two systems and devising ways of adjusting each to specific needs. But neither system is perfect and all have drawbacks. And so, the search continues. . . Love this brainstorming, Bob -- thanks for your thoughts. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<EL SNIPPO GRANDE .. see previous items in this thread> >Accordingly, towing systems must be easy to deploy, easy to > attach, and easy to escape. >> > >AMEN. And I would add *flexible*. You need to have a system which matches >the needs and conditions of the moment, which are constantly changing. I >have achieved a fair amount of flexibility by carrying two systems and >devising ways of adjusting each to specific needs. But neither system is >perfect and all have drawbacks. And so, the search continues. . . > One (not inexpensive) approach to flexibility is a tow belt system that has two lines: a short one (13 feet) for simple tows in calm conditions, and a long one (> 40 feet) for rougher conditions and big swells. The lines are contained in a bag with two openings, one on the right, one on the left, attached to a canvas belt with an airplane-type quick release buckle. Each line has a carabiner which clips to a d-ring attached to the belt. Thus, each line is quickly available for use as needed. The quick release buckle insures that the tower can escape the tow if needed, or can readily transfer the tow to another paddler, as Harold mentioned. Salamander sells this system. Don't remember the exact name they give it, but there's a "Pro" somewhere in the nomenclature. Bob Volin bobvolin_at_bestweb.net ;-> There cannot be a crisis this week; my schedule is already full. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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