This rudder/no rudder business just goes on and on and I would like to propose something- a "Grok Duel" - that might help everyone concerned. It comes from Edward MacNeal, a regular contributor to ETC: The Journal of the International Society for General Semantics. The name comes from Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" and means to "to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the process being observed ....etc." MacNeal felt that most arguments and misunderstandings stemmed from the parties not understanding each other's positions. He developed the "Grok Duel" as an aid in understanding. These rules govern Grok Dueling; 1. Each party takes turns trying to state the other's position to the satisfaction of the other party. Parties may only use positive statements supporting an argument. 2. An unsatisfied party must state at least one particular in which the statement fails. 3. The first party to make a satisfactory statement wins. If the second party then replies with a satisfactory statement, the second party also wins. The opposing sides of this discussion can pick someone to represent them and send him or her their arguments supporting the opposing position, They, in turn, will post the arguments on paddlewise (this will cut down on list traffic). No one else will post to the list on the topic. Jackie will have to use one of her subtle chastisements to stop rogue posters. We could use "Pros and Cons of Rudders and Moveable Skegs VS No Rudder or Moveable Skeg on Sea Kayaks" as a topic. Because this will include a lot of people maybe the first post should include a list of those on each side. When over, Jackie could post the lists on the Paddlewise web site explaining how we created it. I have wanted to test this technique of MacNeal's on the Internet for some time as I believe that the Internet actually inhibits understanding because of its "sound bite nature" and a tendency towards wanting to "win" arguments or make "points". For those interested the article describing Grok Dueling appears in ETC: Volume Fifty-Six Number Two, Summer 1999. If this experiment works I will write to Mr.. MacNeal who may even use Paddlewise as an example of improved understanding in a future article. If we agree to use this technique we should set a start date for I may ask MacNeal to monitor the discussion if he has E-Mail or thinks it worthwhile. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Very interesting idea. Just thinking about this idea I have a couple of thoughts. My concern with this particular topic is that there are so many different points of view. It isn't a clear cut rudder/no rudder argument. I have not heard my own position approached very much here. Being a Quaker, I'm very comfortable with having my point of view enunciated by someone else as long as the idea gets out there. I'm wondering why I am not hearing it. Maybe my newbie point of view is unrealistic. I'm learning a lot from the debate and it is making we rethink my opinions about rudders. My lack of experience is a filter through which I hear and judge. I have to recall how little I know experientially. I have enjoyed the traffic and the ideas. I don't mind this process. I'd guess I'm not the only one out here who is observing without joining either camp. In fact I'd guess that a lot of us are sometimes here an sometimes there. Which camp would I go to if I wanted to join and then who would be the arbiter of when something was correctly enunciated? I like the idea. I'd love to see it in action. Even if it fails to work observation of the process would be instructional. Joan 735769 wrote: > This rudder/no rudder business just goes on and on and I would like to > propose something- a "Grok Duel" - that might help everyone concerned. It > comes from Edward MacNeal, a regular contributor to ETC: The Journal of the > International Society for General Semantics. > > The name comes from Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" and means > to "to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the > process being observed ....etc." > > MacNeal felt that most arguments and misunderstandings stemmed from the > parties not understanding each other's positions. He developed the "Grok > Duel" as an aid in understanding. > > These rules govern Grok Dueling; > > 1. Each party takes turns trying to state the other's position to the > satisfaction of the other party. Parties may only use positive statements > supporting an argument. > > 2. An unsatisfied party must state at least one particular in which the > statement fails. > > 3. The first party to make a satisfactory statement wins. If the second > party then replies with a satisfactory statement, the second party also > wins. > > The opposing sides of this discussion can pick someone to represent them and > send him or her their arguments supporting the opposing position, They, in > turn, will post the arguments on paddlewise (this will cut down on list > traffic). No one else will post to the list on the topic. Jackie will have > to use one of her subtle chastisements to stop rogue posters. > > We could use "Pros and Cons of Rudders and Moveable Skegs VS No Rudder or > Moveable Skeg on Sea Kayaks" as a topic. Because this will include a lot of > people maybe the first post should include a list of those on each side. > When over, Jackie could post the lists on the Paddlewise web site explaining > how we created it. > > I have wanted to test this technique of MacNeal's on the Internet for some > time as I believe that the Internet actually inhibits understanding because > of its "sound bite nature" and a tendency towards wanting to "win" arguments > or make "points". > > For those interested the article describing Grok Dueling appears in ETC: > Volume Fifty-Six Number Two, Summer 1999. > > If this experiment works I will write to Mr.. MacNeal who may even use > Paddlewise as an example of improved understanding in a future article. If > we agree to use this technique we should set a start date for I may ask > MacNeal to monitor the discussion if he has E-Mail or thinks it worthwhile. > > Cheers, > John Winters > Redwing Designs > Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/8/99 5:29:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 735769_at_ican.net writes: << This rudder/no rudder business just goes on and on and I would like to propose something- a "Grok Duel" >> First I think we need to debate the virtues of this "Grok Duel" for a number of months and beat it into the ground until nobody cares anymore :-) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> SNIP< > MacNeal felt that most arguments and misunderstandings stemmed from the > parties not understanding each other's positions. He developed the "Grok > Duel" as an aid in understanding. > > These rules govern Grok Dueling; > > 1. Each party takes turns trying to state the other's position to the > satisfaction of the other party. Parties may only use positive statements > supporting an argument. >MAJOR SNIP< > Might work here?, but it really sounds to me like the ideal of someone on a jap bike, wanting to hang out at a biker bar, who all ride harleys. "it's not that we won't like you as a person, it's just you ain't gon'a drink with us!" :-) Some people just don't get it, and I believe this rudder thing is one of them. James, uses a rudder, but only if I want to..(all I need is air and a smile from my lady) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Juliette, the DADA Oracle, can give some terrific advice as to whether or not you should use a rudder. Just type in your own paddling requirements. You can track her down at: http://www.smalltime.com/nowhere/dada/fortune.html Cheers, Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard wrote; >Juliette, the DADA Oracle, can give some terrific advice as to whether or not >you should use a rudder. Just type in your own paddling requirements. You can >track her down at: > >http://www.smalltime.com/nowhere/dada/fortune.html > Absolutely. Only good advice I have gotten off the net. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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