I'm interested in building a plywood stitch-n-glue CLC Chesapeake 17 kayak in my basement this winter. CLC supplies MAS epoxy with their kits. Any ideas on whether this will be hazardous to my health or my wife's? What if we were pregnant? I was just going to blow a 1 sq. ft. fan out the window, but I could build a plastic sheeting enclosed booth, if recommended. I'm interested in everyone's opinion, but I know that we have some professionals in PW, industrial hygienists, physicians and such. Please don't worry that, if something goes wrong, I would come back and sue you for your casual advice. I understand that free advice is worth every penny you pay for it. Thank you in advance for your considered opinions. -Kevin Zembower -- kevinz_at_charm.net Kevin Zembower *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Kevin, The biggest risk to your wife is losing all contact with you for large blocks of time! Seriously, though, I don't know if there are any known respiratory health risks for curing room-temperature epoxies. Sanding, however, is not real great for your lungs, and varnish fumes may be risky to unborn "future paddlers". The booth isn't a bad idea once you get to the sanding and varnishing (or painting) stage, or you could do those tasks outside in the spring. Remember to wear a dust mask while you're sanding. Shawn Kevin Zembower <kevinz_at_charm.net> wrote: >I'm interested in building a plywood stitch-n-glue CLC Chesapeake 17 kayak >in my basement this winter. CLC supplies MAS epoxy with their kits. Any >ideas on whether this will be hazardous to my health or my wife's? What if >we were pregnant? I was just going to blow a 1 sq. ft. fan out the window, >but I could build a plastic sheeting enclosed booth, if recommended. Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
First, saw dust has a wonderful habit of permeating everywhere, so be sure doors from the basement remain closed. I would emphasize the need to wear a mask when sanding. Be forewarned that if you have a beard or mustache, most masks efficiency are greatly reduced. You can apply vaseline to the rim of the mask and that will improve the mask's efficiency. An exhasut fan would also be a good idea. Finally, using a sander attached to a vacuum also reduces the amount of dust sent into the surrounding air. Now with regard to curing epoxy. I believe you you find warnings to use in a well ventilated area. I would request definitive advice from MAS or whatever maker of epoxy you choose to use. You must also be careful of fumes accumulating inside a booth - I personally would not do this with the booth being very well ventilated. You should also be forewarned that even if the fumes are not particularly hazardeous, their odor can be annoying. Last summer I was playing with some West System Epoxy and some polyesther expoxy. This was outside. The west system did seem to give off obnoxious smells, while the polyesther epoxy reminded me of my father's boat building days. The fumes linger for days. good luck, sid who has spent many hours making sawdust in garages and basements (Embedded image moved "Shawn W. Baker" <baker_at_montana.com> to file: 11/15/99 04:12 PM pic03060.pcx) Please respond to baker_at_montana.com To: Paddlewise <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> cc: Kevin Zembower <kevinz_at_charm.net> (bcc: Sidney Stone/AMS/AMSINC) Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Hazards of indoor kayak building? Hi Kevin, The biggest risk to your wife is losing all contact with you for large blocks of time! Seriously, though, I don't know if there are any known respiratory health risks for curing room-temperature epoxies. Sanding, however, is not real great for your lungs, and varnish fumes may be risky to unborn "future paddlers". The booth isn't a bad idea once you get to the sanding and varnishing (or painting) stage, or you could do those tasks outside in the spring. Remember to wear a dust mask while you're sanding. Shawn Kevin Zembower <kevinz_at_charm.net> wrote: >I'm interested in building a plywood stitch-n-glue CLC Chesapeake 17 kayak >in my basement this winter. CLC supplies MAS epoxy with their kits. Any >ideas on whether this will be hazardous to my health or my wife's? What if >we were pregnant? I was just going to blow a 1 sq. ft. fan out the window, >but I could build a plastic sheeting enclosed booth, if recommended. Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** [demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of pic03060.pcx] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I guess I've never used MAS or West System, but I've used Raka epoxy a great deal. Barely any noticeable smells. Polyester resin, which isn't an epoxy is REALLY stinky stuff! Before you mix it with catalyst, it also gives off a lot of VOC's, and the fumes are flammable. Shawn Sidney_Stone_at_amsinc.com wrote: > fumes are not particularly hazardeous, their odor can be annoying. Last summer > I was playing with some West System Epoxy and some polyesther expoxy. This was > outside. The west system did seem to give off obnoxious smells, while the > polyesther epoxy reminded me of my father's boat building days. The fumes > linger for days. -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
While paddling this weekend I noticed one of those things that gives me the willies. My fibreglass over cedar canoe needs a repair. It appears the exterior gelcoat is scratched deeply in one spot. On the inside of the boat in the same spot one of the cedar strips has a 2-3 cm star-shaped cracked area. While paddling, a tiny amount of water was coming up -- enough just to dampen the wood (which is covered with a thin layer of fibreglass). What is the proper order of things when making a repair like this? Does it matter if I fix the gel coat first or last? I've been told I am supposed to scrape deeply in the wood to remove any water permeated material, and backfill with polyester resin. How exactly do I fix the gel coat? Advice appreciated. jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry Hawkins wrote: > > > What is the proper order of things when making a repair like this? Does it matter if I fix the gel coat first or last? I've been told I am supposed to scrape deeply in the wood to remove any water permeated material, and backfill with polyester resin. How exactly do I fix the gel coat? Advice appreciated. > > jerry. This is a good question for the boatbuilding newsgroup Jerry, but I would assume that the only reason to remove wood is if it is rotten. With cedar, I would think the chances of this is rather remote. Is the original finish epoxy or the polyester resin? I have gathered that epoxy will stick well to to the resin, but resin will not to epoxy. You probably can get more definitive information from dejanews as this subject has been covered multiple times. gel coat last. -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sidney_Stone_at_amsinc.com wrote: [snip] > Now with regard to curing epoxy. I believe you you find warnings to use in a > well ventilated area. I would request definitive advice from MAS or whatever > maker of epoxy you choose to use. [snip] Last summer > I was playing with some West System Epoxy and some polyester epoxy [sic]. > This was outside. The west system did seem to give off obnoxious smells, > while the polyester epoxy [sic] reminded me of my father's boat building > days. The fumes linger for days. Let me put this caveat up front: I'm a mere organic chemist, and yield to Paddlewiser Dana Dickson, who is a genuine industrial hygienist with professional training pertinent to this discussion. I hope Dana picks up on this thread. What you read below stands to be improved on/corrected by Dana. (Thank you, Dana!) A couple things are skewed here: 1. The System Three resins (all epoxy-based) I have used are "low" in odor, except for a distinct ammonia-like smell. Unless the polyamine hardener in West materials is chemically very different (or, impure), it should also be relatively low-odor. OTOH, so-called "five-minute" epoxy hardeners **do** have a very pungent "dog-urine" odor to them. I find them very obnoxious. The hazards with epoxy are primarily related to contact dermatitis (or, if you do not wear a mask while sanding, inhalation reaction), leading in some individuals to **sensitization** and subsequent severe allergic reaction on re-exposure. For *some* of those sensitized folks, even walking into an open boat-building shop causes an immediate reaction. The original poster would be well-advised to separate his sleeping/eating area from the place where he does his epoxy work, for this reason: no one can predict who the "sensitive" individuals are, and who the "insensitive" (less-sensitive?) folks are. BTW, I have committed every epoxy error possible, and I am not sensitized (yet?). YMMV!!! 2. Sidney has confused "epoxy" with "polyester" in his original posting (see my [sic] notations above). AFAIK, there are no "polyester epoxy" resins. I believe his "polyester epoxy" is really polyester/styrene resin or possibly vinylester resin. This is a very understandable error, if for no other reason that some retailers do not distinguish the two. Finally, any polyester/vinyl ester resin should stink up the place big time, and IIRC, the vapors are an acute health hazard in a high enough concentration. Some folks find the odor from polyester/styrene or vinylester materials attractive (??!!). Others are repulsed. Dana, bail me out! Thanks. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn wrote; Remember to wear a dust mask while >you're sanding. If using a nuisance type dust mask ( ya know the ones dat kinda looks like a doctors mask) it would be advisable to use one with two bands that fit around your head. The nuisance dust mask with only one band is not nearly as efficient as the double band. My two cents, Arthur >Kevin Zembower <kevinz_at_charm.net> wrote: >>I'm interested in building a plywood stitch-n-glue CLC Chesapeake 17 kayak >>in my basement this winter. CLC supplies MAS epoxy with their kits. Any >>ideas on whether this will be hazardous to my health or my wife's? What if >>we were pregnant? I was just going to blow a 1 sq. ft. fan out the window, >>but I could build a plastic sheeting enclosed booth, if recommended. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin Zembower wrote: > > I'm interested in building a plywood stitch-n-glue CLC Chesapeake 17 kayak > in my basement this winter. CLC supplies MAS epoxy with their kits. Any > ideas on whether this will be hazardous to my health or my wife's? What if > we were pregnant? I was just going to blow a 1 sq. ft. fan out the window, > but I could build a plastic sheeting enclosed booth, if recommended. > It is supposed to be fairly inert according to the boatbuilding newsgroup and the literature I have read. I don't think it would be useless putting the fan and/or tent in for the particulates when sanding however. -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Nov 15, 19:13, Gabriel L Romeu wrote: } Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Hazards of indoor kayak building? > Kevin Zembower wrote: > > > > I'm interested in building a plywood stitch-n-glue CLC Chesapeake 17 kayak > > in my basement this winter. CLC supplies MAS epoxy with their kits. Any > > ideas on whether this will be hazardous to my health or my wife's? What if > > we were pregnant? I was just going to blow a 1 sq. ft. fan out the window, > > but I could build a plastic sheeting enclosed booth, if recommended. > > > > It is supposed to be fairly inert according to the boatbuilding > newsgroup and the literature I have read. I don't think it would be > useless putting the fan and/or tent in for the particulates when sanding > however. I'd definitely use the fan, at least. I don't know about MAS epoxy, but I would imagine the hazards would be similar to other epoxies. West Systems has a web page on epoxy hazards with their epoxy at http://www.concentric.net/~westsys/safety/safety.shtml which suggests that ventilation is necessary, and especially so for partially cured sanding dust. Note that though epoxy hardens within minutes to hours (depending on the hardener), it does not fully cure for a few weeks at room temperature, longer if it is colder. But basically epoxy seems to be pretty inert, on the scale of things. The risks seem to be more one of sensitization - you don't want to develop an allergy to the stuff. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ruminations on the risks of home boatbuilding and repair: I'm not an expert on this. I do work in the health care field though, and I have had reason to investigate boatbuilding safety risks pretty thoroughly. I've also had a modest amount of personal experience with exposure to many of the things used in home boatbuilding. First - with a few simple precautions and a few pieces of inexpensive protective gear, home boatbuilding and repair can be a very enjoyable and very safe hobby. Very *very* few people will get into trouble if they use good sense. Most of us don't get into trouble even though we don't use good sense often enough. What follows are the things I've been told and have read about the risks involved and the appropriate preventive measures to take. I wish I had gotten these through my thick skull when I built my first boat, but I didn't. To the extent they are followed, they will limit the articles of clothing destroyed, pretty much prevent any ill effects of your health, keep your house cleaner and your wife and dog happier, and make eventual painting and varnishing worlds easier. (Am I perfect about following all of these? Of course not. Am I therefore taking some risks with my own health? I probably am - but just because I'm stupid doesn't mean you have to be.) ---------------------------- RISKS - I've read that you can get away with building one boat without using any precautions at all. I don't believe that. I know for sure it isn't a good idea. My experience with one very popular maker of S&G kits is that the hazard warnings in the instructions were woefully inadequate. All of the epoxies are toxic. All of them. WHETHER THEY HAVE A BAD SMELL OR NOT IS NOT THE POINT! (Sorry for the shouting.) With enough repetitive exposure, almost anyone will develop an allergy to them, manifested by a really bad itching skin rash (similar to poison ivy) which lasts days to weeks after last exposure, and/or significant difficulty breathing. Once you're allergic, each exposure gets worse than the last. If you're careless over a period of time, there can be ill effects on internal organs too. All of the things we mix with epoxy are also toxic. Even "wood flour" and extensive exposure to sawdust can be cancinogenic if we breathe them in. If one uses solvents like acetone the danger is even greater, whether the solvent is beathed in or absorbed through the skin. Perhaps worst of all are the "thixotropics", the thickeners like colloidal silica and phenolic microballoons which, if breathed in, cause (not "can cause") a progressive scar accumulation in your lungs. Even things which aren't poisonous can cause troubles. Pieces of sawn wood and flecks of sawdust, for example, have a nasty hibit of finding their way around the corners of eyeglasses and into an eye. ----------------------- PREVENTIVE MEASURES - Always have the room vented when you're using epoxy or organic solvents. If you can install a vent fan, that's ideal. Have a good shop vacuum in the shop at all times, and use it frequently! Connect it to your sander whenever you're using a power sander (the little "dust collectors" on sanders are more decoration than functional). Wear a vapor-barrier mask (available at most good paint stores - NOT a dust mask!) any time you're working with epoxy resin or using an organic solvent like acetone. Keep the vapor-barrier elements of the mask in an airtight ziplock bag whever they're not in use. Use the vapor barrier when varnishing or painting too, unless you can do that in a well-ventilated outside area. Wear a HEPA filter dust mask when you're sanding or when you're using something like a bandsaw or other bench saw extensively. For very brief exposures to larger particles I use a surgical mask, but a HEPA filter is definitely better. Use vinegar to clean up after your epoxy, not acetone. Wear a tyvek coverall when working with epoxy. If you're generating a lot of sawdust, wash yourself and your clothing before you wander around the rest of the house very much (and/or wear the tyvek at those times too). You'll ruin far fewer items of street clothing that way. When sanding or sawing, wear eye protection, like a pair of impact-resistent goggles, even if you wear glasses normally. It's a nuisance, but it's less of a nuisance than a trip to the emergency department of your hospital, to have a piece of wood or a grain of sawdust dug out of your eye. Wear latex or similar gloves **whenever** working with epoxy, even for a moment. Do not allow epoxy to contact your skin. If it does get on you, do NOT clean it off with acetone. Use vinegar and/or waterless hand cleaner. Undiluted dish soap works fairly well too. Keep a pair of old shoes, preferably with paper shoe covers, in your shop. Wear these in the shop, and take them off as you leave. No doubt there are a dozen other good things which can or should be done, but those above are some of the most important. Do they sound like compulsive rituals? That's okay. I'll happily be compulsive rather than sick or unable to work on my boats any longer. Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I received this and am passing it along to all ya'll down under Dana MEDIA RELEASE – NOVEMBER 16, 1999 MAJOR KAYAK EVENT ON SYDNEY HARBOUR Sydney Harbour will play host to the colourful Manly to Pier One Challenge - a 14km kayak race from Manly Wharf to the new Pier One Parkroyal Hotel – from 8am on Saturday, December 4, 1999. Dubbed the "City to Surf on Water", the Manly to Pier One Challenge will showcase an elite contingent of over 200 Australian competitors and Internationals, featuring our own Olympic hopefuls, Shane Suska and Nathan Baggley in a battle of the paddles. This inaugural one-day event will incorporate surf skiing, sea kayaking and outrigger canoeing. Race categories include single and double surf skiing, one man outrigger canoeing, six man outrigger canoeing, four man kayaking, surf boats, paddleboarding, sea kayaking – representing three divisions; open sea kayaking, long sea kayaking and double short sea kayaking. Divisions include male and female, mixed doubles, under 16s, under 18s, open, over 35s and representing the most popular entrant category, the over 50s. All craft selected for the event are ocean-going craft and competitors agree to abide by the laws of the water as set out by the NSW Waterways, Sydney Ports Authority and Sydney Ferries. An army of 10 craft will provide water safety protection along the route. The course for competitors starts at Manly Wharf, travelling southwest along the northern harbour foreshores, under the Harbour Bridge to Goat Island and across to the finishing line at the recently complete Pier One Parkroyal. Event organisers OnLine Sports Marketing (OSM) in association with the Pier One Parkroyal and Guy Leech have devised this unique race to focus attention on a sport rapidly increasing in popularity. Andrew Loader, General Manager of the Pier One Parkroyal said today, “This is a wonderful opportunity for Sydneysiders to revel in the excitement of a sporting competition with Sydney’s beautiful waterfront landscape as the backdrop. We’re excited to be involved in this landmark event.” OSM’s Managing Director, Adam Bray added, “Our long term goal is to establish this event as Australia’s largest aquatic community fitness event. 1999 will focus on elite competition with community participation rolling out from 2000 onwards.” Entry forms for the Manly to Pier One Challenge are available through NSW Canoeing. For further information please contact: Gretta Lie / OSM Catherine Mills/ 2IC Integrated Communications (02) 9977 7433 / 0412 772 177 (02) 9818 7833/ 0419 290 412 OnLine Sports Marketing PO Box 500 Manly 2095 NSW Australia Tel: + 61 2 9977 7433 Fax: + 61 2 9977 7176 ~ Tracey Brown tracey_at_2ic.com.au Ph:9818 7833 Fax:9818 7844 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> No doubt there are a dozen other good things which can or should be done, but > those above are some of the most important. Do they sound like compulsive > rituals? That's okay. I'll happily be compulsive rather than sick or unable > to work on my boats any longer. > > Bill Hansen I think that this was great advice. After working in a shop pretty much fuul time, safety glasses are pretty much second nature as in wearing a pfd kayaking, dusk masks and ear protection are not much more obtrusive when appropriate. It is not a big investment to get good quality. And when you have the oppurtunity, it is very pleasurable to sand outside but still use the dusk masks. -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with Gabriel Romeu's observation that, in addition to other protections, ear protection (from the noise) is important when using power tools. I use "earmuffs" whenever a power saw , power sander, or vacuum is in use - but I forgot to mention it in my last note. The little ear-canal plugs work reasonably well too, but my ear canals are too narrow for them to fit well. - Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bill Hansen wrote: > I use "earmuffs" whenever a power saw , power sander, or vacuum is in >use - but I forgot to mention it in my last note. The little ear-canal plugs >work reasonably well too, but my ear canals are too narrow for them to fit >well. ....There is another type of plug -- it's a moldable kind of plastic-like stuff called "Flent's Ear Stopples." This stuff will mold into any ear, is easy to remove and replace, and has the same or better noise reduction factor as the little foam plugs. Not only good for workshops, but great for weddings, too! Bob Volin ....who dances only under duress (except for rare occasions), and hates loud music. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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