Hand Holders, Whatever happened to just giving a few pointers on the beach and then sending the kayakers into the surf? Nothing beats learning by trial and error, and just plain spending time on the water. But I guess you have some who want to be held by the hand, and then you have some who just want get out there and do it. Those who want to be held by the hand will never become skilled kayakers, because they don't have the guts it takes to learn this sport. It is amazing how anal, methodical, and even sterile sea kayak instruction has become. Has it gone too far? I can't help but think that the real purpose of this kind of instruction is to show the students how experienced and knowledgeable the instructor is rather than to help the students gain experience and knowledge. Come on, after talking on the beach for a few minutes, it is time to just get in the water and do it! Duane Strosaker Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane Strosaker wrote: >Hand Holders, > >Whatever happened to just giving a few pointers on the beach and then sending >the kayakers into the surf? <SNIP> Those who want to be held by the hand will never become skilled >kayakers, because they don't have the guts it takes to learn this sport. It >is amazing how anal, methodical, and even sterile sea kayak instruction has >become. Has it gone too far? Duane (and others who might agree): Every teacher knows that there are many successful approaches to learning. What worked for you might have presented an impossible hurdle to others. Just the same, the methodical approach that is demonstrably effective for many paddlers is one that might turn others away from the sport before they give it a chance. Successful teachers try to understand each student at least as well as they do their subject. As someone said in a recent post on a completely different subject: different cultures have different ways of respecting people. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane Strosaker wrote; > Hand Holders, > > Whatever happened to just giving a few pointers on the beach and then sending > the kayakers into the surf? Nothing beats learning by trial and error, A little basic this comment, but broadly fair enough for most. However I've come across paddlers for whom the sort of instruction outlined by doug would be perfect. They're perfectly happy at sea, but, for their own reasons, just freak out at the idea of even mild surf, thereby limiting their paddling. I thought the step by step progress potentially a good idea for such people. This will enable them to learn, in the words of one NSW paddler, that 'it doesn't matter' to go over in surf and to be unable to roll up, nothing is going to happen, you'll just get wet and maybe a bit tumbled if its big enough to 'washing machine' you. nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I enjoyed and learned from Doug's post on his surfing class. In fact, I'd love to take that class! (Doug why don't you visit the East Coast?) Since Doug explained it so well, I will know what to look for when I discuss possible class offerings with instructors. His is the kind of step by step approach that would help me and encourage me to go further than "Get out there and do it". I was sorry to hear that wanting to hold hands with Doug Lloyd means that I will never become a skilled kayaker --- NOT! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/23/99 7:15:26 PM, Strosaker_at_aol.com writes: << Hand Holders, Whatever happened to just giving a few pointers on the beach and then sending the kayakers into the surf? Nothing beats learning by trial and error, and just plain spending time on the water. But I guess you have some who want to be held by the hand, and then you have some who just want get out there and do it. Those who want to be held by the hand will never become skilled kayakers, because they don't have the guts it takes to learn this sport. It is amazing how anal, methodical, and even sterile sea kayak instruction has become. Has it gone too far? I can't help but think that the real purpose of this kind of instruction is to show the students how experienced and knowledgeable the instructor is rather than to help the students gain experience and knowledge. Come on, after talking on the beach for a few minutes, it is time to just get in the water and do it! Duane Strosaker Southern California>> Someone recently asked what was wrong with being macho. Sorry Duane, but this is what is wrong with macho. Trial and error is offered in Doug's class in a safe, sort of, setting. For new paddlers or at least ones who have not experienced surf, like me, this sounds exactly like what they need to learn without doing it the hard way. I'm not a believer that learning the hard way is the best. It is fine and dandy for me to stick you on a horse after an hour or so of experience and tell you, just go for the 3' jump. The horse knows how. The point is, I'm am instructor. I'm teaching people how to do something they want to learn how to do safely. You might survive and learn from falling on your head but then you might not. Certainly, if you have any common sense, you will find a teacher who will give you the hand holding you need to gain the skills and confidence in those skills that you paid for. I seriously don't want teachers who put my life at risk because they won't come show me and coach me as I learn. I want that instructor's rear end up on that horse and over that 3' jump, showing me how to do it, not just a lot of talk where it is safe and dry. I think Doug's piece is great, thought I did ask myself if I had the courage to go this far this soon in my paddling experience. I'll go seek out Doug any day of the week but I will certainly avoid any teacher from your school of, "throw the kid in the water. He'll learn to swim." I believe that it is wiser to avoid the teacher who would talk up their skills as a paddler rather than show their skills as a teacher. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Strosaker_at_aol.com wrote: > Whatever happened to just giving a few pointers on the beach and then sending > the kayakers into the surf? Nothing beats learning by trial and error, and > just plain spending time on the water. That works for people who are already savvy about surf. It does not, for folks who are clueless enough they need to "learn" why they need to position themselves on the up-wave side of their yaks. Like you, I grew up in a SoCal beach town, and learned a lot of the stuff Doug was teaching his folks by the age of eight. Even so, I managed to clonk myself with my first surfboard's skeg across the ear, second day I had it, at age 13 -- by coming up too soon. If it had occurred in deep water, I probably would not have survived it. As it was, I staggered up the hill to my parents shop with blood streaming down my neck. Scared the *#_at_$ out of my Mom, but Boy! was I proud of that scar! (Can't find it anymore, dang it!) I think it's OK to steer folks away from the really unnecessary "hard knocks" so they can spend their cranial cushions on more sophisticated hard knocks. They'll get their object lessons in the power of surf soon enough. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR (poorly self-taught ex-skier, ex-surfer, ex-climber, you name it -- and I have the bruises and breaks to prove it) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane Strosaker wrote: >Hand Holders, > >Whatever happened to just giving a few pointers on the beach and then sending >the kayakers into the surf? <SNIP> Those who want to be held by the hand will never become skilled >kayakers, because they don't have the guts it takes to learn this sport. It >is amazing how anal, methodical, and even sterile sea kayak instruction has >become. Has it gone too far? Bob Volin replied .... Duane (and others who might agree): Every teacher knows that there are many successful approaches to learning. What worked for you might have presented an impossible hurdle to others. Just the same, the methodical approach that is demonstrably effective for many paddlers is one that might turn others away from the sport before they give it a chance. Successful teachers try to understand each student at least as well as they do their subject. As someone said in a recent post on a completely different subject: different cultures have different ways of respecting people. Bob.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a difference between hand holding and a methodical approach, step by step approach. It is the teachers job and responsibility to develop and execute the curiculum which works, and htis comes from practice, trial and error, and receiving feedback. The teacher must also know how to push/nudge their pupils and encourage risks taking. I personally find teaching and coaching and interesting challenge, since I must figure out what will work best with each individual. I need to take what has become second nature for me, and translate that into words and actions which others can understand and execute. Sometimes we do not fully appreciate the effort that goes into learning how to coach/teach. Finally, I agree that overly agressive hand holding will not take the place of self initiative. I did not, however, view Doug's description as hand holding, but instead an approach which works for him. But in the end, it would be interesting to hear feedback from his students. sid who is suffering from paddle withdrawal as winter sets in *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I hope joan doesn't take this the wrong way, but there is a general point to make here about surf skills and approaching the surf I liked doug's post for certain types of learners, I thought Duane's comment a bit heavy-handed, though something like his version can be fine for many paddlers. Some people i've taught can't wait to get out, get trashed, wash up and do it again, and again, until they master it. Many australians, like me, grew up getting munched in the surf trying to bodysurf etc. But not all.... but Joan wrote > I think Doug's piece is great, thought I did ask myself if I had the > courage to go this far this soon in my paddling experience. This, however, is an attitude to surf I wouldn't encourage. I'm not sure what sort of water joan paddles but I'd see surf skills as a very good place to START developing sea paddling skills after a little gentle, flattish water, safe launching/landing paddling. Getting into the surf, shouldn't be seen as 'out there', something to do once you've got some experience. In sea kayaking surf is going to confront you sooner or later. In australia, sooner. How can you know what your landing point will be like? There was an article in sea kayaker some years ago about some paddlers who got in trouble late in the day (evening?). From memory they were describing having trouble when unexpectedly having to cope with three-four foot surf (am I right in this?), among other issues, I think. A little surfing tuition and practice would have enabled them cope with this surf with ease, it would not have been an issue. They might have even been disappointed at the lack of surf for a fun end of day run in to the beach. Moreover surf skills are not just for the surf. The skills of leaning, bracing, hip use, coping with breaking waves coming from every which way, and using subtle adjustments of body and paddle to guide the boat on a wave and stay upright are all potentially useful away from the surf on the open water if wind and waves come up, and you find yourself in breaking water, or suddenly on a breaking bombora (waves on a slightly submerged rock), or perhaps caught in a wave in a gauntlet or in a cave. Surf-learnt skills will help you stay upright, help you to stay calmer because you know you can cope, and, in some circumstance, may even help you to use the wave/boat dynamics to manoeuver your boat to help get out of the situation. If following seas come up surf-enhanced skills will assist you in catching them out on open water - Yee haa! You can have fun and get home fast. nick who should get back to work on his thesis so he feels happy about going to the coast this weekend for the first time in 3 months. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<< Whatever happened to just giving a few pointers on the beach and then sending the kayakers into the surf? >> OK, Duane, I have to take issue with this. I did learn as you suggest. When I took up sea kayaking it was a very little known sport in So. Cal.. There weren't any instructors, or even books available. I got a boat and went out and did it. Of course I grew up on the beach, and in the surf. I was a lot younger then, and healed a whole lot faster then I seem to nowadays. Now I teach kayak surf technique. First of all let me say that the company I work for is not eager to pay out on countless insurance claims for injured paddlers. Like it or not, we live in an age of litigation. It is MY JOB to keep these people safe from injury. Furthermore, not every person who comes through my class is interested in becoming a gung-ho cowabunga surfer. The purpose of the class is to teach people how to SAFELY negotiate the surf. That is, how to launch and land through it, not necessarily how to surf waves. I have had people in my classes who were terrified of the waves. It was MY JOB to get them out there in the smaller stuff to give them a sense of self confidence. These people will probably never go surfing. But at least for one day they were able to climb and conquer the mountain. Even if it was just a small hill to you and me. So what's wrong with that? One of the best kayak surfers I know went through my class. I think I'm pretty darn good, but he's better. I can't take credit for his skill, but I did introduce him to the sport. So it takes all kinds, and I have to be prepared for whoever shows up in my class. Duane, I know your probably just trying to cause trouble on this list with this post of yours, which is something I also enjoy doing from time to time. But you've touched a nerve here. I don't have any problem at all with you being macho, just as long as you don't take anybody down with you. cya, Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:43 PM 11/23/99 EST, Duane couldn't contain himself and wrote: >Hand Holders, > >Whatever happened to just giving a few pointers on the beach and then sending >the kayakers into the surf? I got a lot of private e-mails on my post, all supportive and agreeable. One PW'er even asked permission to forward my post to what I assume were his instructor friends. I gave permission and was also _very_ careful to point out that the type and style of surf course being put on was specifically earmarked as "atypical". It was designed to meet the needs and requirements of those who normally *avoid* surf with their *sea kayaks*. The type of situation you mention as normal teaching is much more typical here and commonplace in most localities where surf is present. I made that fairly apparent in my first post, I thought, but obviously it didn't sink in with you, or perhaps you philosophically want to rule out certain individuals from a learning environment that would further facilitate the goals and objectives of our local paddling club. (Gee, I'd hate to let you "have at it" at a meeting of one of the disabled-paddler's clubs). >Nothing beats learning by trial and error, and >just plain spending time on the water. I TOTALLY agree. And now the folks who "got their feet wet" can progress and find out what level of activity they wish to pursue, but do so with a basic primer. At the very least, they will not be such a liability on longer, exposed coast trips. Their confidence levels have gone way up. Their growth as paddlers in terms of knowledge and abilities have been given a good spring-board jump. I teach avocational woodworking, and I am very zealous about breaking down initial skills into learnable segments and having them learn the basics thoroughly. I became unabashed about this after one of my students lost three fingers to the dado blade (surgical restoration impossible) and I was sued up the ying-yang. There is a balance. For teaching kayak surfing, you could sit everyone down on the beach and spend hours doing silly things with the paddle in the sand. That is too much. Pointing their bows into the waves and saying bye-bye is too little. BTW, I learned to surf (and woodwork) on my own, no instruction. >But I guess you have some who want to >be held by the hand, and then you have some who just want get out there and >do it. Those who want to be held by the hand will never become skilled >kayakers, because they don't have the guts it takes to learn this sport. Hello Duane, anyone home? This is the late nineties lad. You can't say what "this sport" is anymore. It is whatever people want it to be. Lake paddling, estuary paddling. Sheltered trips once a year, augmented by a "mother ship". Or it can be full-on exposed coast paddling on multi day trips. It can also be just weekend surf-kayaking. Perhaps you have the "guts" and are a fully capable TOKM (trained ocean kayaking machine), or maybe you were just plain tok'n too much weed when you posted your reply. If this is truly your attitude (that people should be pushed in over their heads and let loose) perhaps it is you who are a bit sheltered given the day and age we live in. > It >is amazing how anal, methodical, and even sterile sea kayak instruction has >become. Has it gone too far? I can't help but think that the real purpose >of this kind of instruction is to show the students how experienced and >knowledgeable the instructor is rather than to help the students gain >experience and knowledge. Well yes. You do have a point, and I have seen it. It is also really big business now, all codified and regulated in many countries, once "grandfathering" is completed and everyone buys into it. However, you don't know Dave or myself, so incorrectly contextualizing us in your comments by assumption is rather fallacious. Funny. For once I thought we had finally put on a real good course for a select group of friendly paddlers wanting to better their skills in a non-threatening way. Dave and I planned the course out way ahead of time. We sat down for coffee, went over all the things we needed to do to put on a safe, enjoyable course, and now we are anal and sterile by your implication. Just great. Dave usually just sends students out into the middle distance, leaves them alone, and no one wants to ever go on a course with him again. In the past, we have gone out in our own boats and put on a show of skill and mastery to suitably impress one and all. This time we froze our balls to stay in the frigid water and wind and breaking seas - not to show StarKist our good taste, but to maximize facilitation with the finer points, one-on-one, while ensuring the safety of our charges. Man, you just can't win! >Come on, after talking on the beach for a few >minutes, it is time to just get in the water and do it! > Been there, done that. Will do it again too - when and where appropriate. Why are you on this list Duane? Do you have an excess of testosterone and can't wait to kick sand in the face of someone that espouses a more sensitive, end-to-end methodology were they felt that was the correct approach for a given situation? Aren't you the same guy who posted a "What's wrong with being macho?" post last week or so? Perhaps you are a true testosterone-addled surfer dude who just can't countenance our enlightened approach (student concurrence on that point). Fine. You have a right to that view. Many will appreciate the "guts n' glory" attribution you subscribe to, but other than during my solo pursuits, I run with a mixed crowd of both men and women of varying competencies and learning styles. In my opinion, your implicit he-man attitudinizing can be a turn-off, if not out-and-out dangerous for certain situations. Dave and I almost lost a friend last April on a "macho" trip. Yeap, our lack of sensitivity, our male inability to effectively communicate fears and concerns, and our "just do it" burliness also almost got us *all* killed - not to mention costing the air force and coast guard a fortune. The three of us came away from that experience deeply changed men and devoted to being more sensitive, both at home and in the club environment. It was a break-through for us. The comment at our post-mortem meeting (done once some of the emotions had evaporated) was, "Well guys, I think the days of the macho kayaker are over". And as far as relating the above incident to surfing, the third member of our team complicated matters tremendously - in my mind - because he didn't want to go near surf, which was part of the reason we pushed for the dangerous crossing. I wish he had taken a "hand holders" surf course prior to our trip. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (Happily holding hands when needed, letting go when not) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message Duane Strosaker writes: >But I guess you have some who want to >be held by the hand, and then you have some who just want get out there and >do it. Those who want to be held by the hand will never become skilled >kayakers, because they don't have the guts it takes to learn this sport. I love it when Duane posts to the list. He gives me the confidence to feel that I can say anything and somehow it will not seem stupid. Thanks for helping to increase my "comfort zone" Duane. I believe that was the method employed by "Team Double D." One of the characteristics of a good instructor is being able to recognize a students fears and increase their "comfort zone" till they are fears no more. When a student is comfortable in their environment, attention is more focused and learning (and teaching) is much less stressful. If that means walking someone through the surf fifty times, then, walk someone through the surf fifty times. I would be willing to wager that someone had to teach Richard Petty how to drive. We all have different expectations from kayaking and will all attain different levels of proficiency. Once again, thanks Duane. Bruce (A quietwater paddler and Damn proud of it!) WEO www.wholeearthoutfitters.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hand Holders, I have really enjoyed reading the response to my post, and I was not surprised by the type of response I received either. This list has been rather boring lately and needed some riling up, and I guess that is just what I did. I still stand behind my original post, but I think way too much was read into it. I think it is great that Doug and Dave did this clinic, and I am a fan of Doug's postings on this list. I just wanted to give my own perspective. I have no apologies for not being Paddlewise and sea kayaking "politically correct." Duane Strosaker Southern California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Some of the responses to Duane's post have addressed the issue of how and why it's important to learn surf techniques, but I'd like to share some thoughts on the process of learning new motor skills (which only partly apply to surf, but address some of Duane's comments): Others posters alluded to differrent learning styles - one way of classifying learning styles is to divide learning styles into four groups: Doers, Feelers, Watchers, and Thinkers. These categories are not mutually exclusive, but rather describe how people learn *new* motor skills - and how an instructor can best help people learn new skills. I'll certainly agree that after the skill is learned, there is no substitute for practice, practice, and more practice, which internalizes the skill so that it becomes instinctive. (and also provides the basis for expanding that skill into new applications - e.g. transferring a flatwater or rolling wave brace into a surfing situation) >From Duane's post, it's evident that he is a Doer, can't stand to listen to any extensive instruction, and is chomping at the bit to just get out and *do* any new activity. Duane, accept that others do not learn the same way as you do. Duane wrote: > Those who want to be held by the hand will never become skilled > kayakers, because they don't have the guts it takes to learn this sport. > Disagree. In the (WW) classes I've taught, I've had two students in particular who were *deathly* afraid of getting their heads wet - in or out of a boat. Don't ask me why they were even taking a kayaking class. One dropped out of the class after I did some 'hand-holding' and finally got the student to tip over and do a wet exit. That student never asked for a refund of a portion of the course fee, and I suspect was perfectly happy having gained a new skill (diminutive as it may seem for most other people), while at the same time realizing that this sport was not for him/her. The other student overcame the fear - again with a significant amount of 'hand-holding' - and has gone on to become an accomplished kayaker. > amazing how anal, methodical, and even sterile sea kayak instruction has > become. Has it gone too far? I can't help but think that the real purpose > of this kind of instruction is to show the students how experienced and > knowledgeable the instructor is rather than to help the students gain > experience and knowledge. > I'll agree that some instructors like to show the world how good they are, as do many non-instructors - by 'showing off' their skills. I'd venture a guess, however, that many instructors always ask for feedback after a class, and try their damnest to address most reasonable student comments/critiques in subsequent clinics. It's pretty amazing how the student comments sometimes differ so greatly - one sometimes wonders whether the students were in the same class/clinic :-) But this also further substantiates the notion that there are different learning styles and personal expectations of what kayaking is all about. But if the same comment is seen in the critiques of a majority of the students, then it's time for the instructor to take note. In my estimation, good instructors can, after working with students for a while, pick out the learning style(s) of that student, and can also explain the same thing three or four or six different ways - each geared toward a particular learning style, or just using different words that might help provide the "Aha!" moment for the student. Good paddlers do not necessarily make good instructors, and good instructors are not necessarily the best paddlers. To echo the sentiment of others, I thought that Doug's surf instruction was well thought out, and provided the skills broken down into bite-sized and easily digestable segments. Doug - Thanks for sharing! The other comments about limiting liability - particularly for folks who teach for a business entity - are important to consider. For such folks, it is very important that new skills be taught in a logical and standardized progression, which provides the best defense against a lawsuit. Regards, Erik Sprenne (at the southern end of Lake Michigan) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:25:33 -0800 >To: Strosaker_at_aol.com >From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Under The Waves-Hand Holders > >At 11:02 AM 11/24/99 EST, Duane wrote nicely: >>Hand Holders, >> >>I have really enjoyed reading the response to my post, and I was not >>surprised by the type of response I received either. This list has been >>rather boring lately and needed some riling up, and I guess that is just what >>I did. I still stand behind my original post, but I think way too much was >>read into it. > >I knew that was what you were up to Duane-the-Pain. And I knew you wouldn't mind me taking a little liberty and indulgence with my response - you wanted more liveness, so I tried to oblige. Hope I didn't disappoint you. I didn't read way too much into your original post - just having some fun. I too hate the long-winded instruction style, and that is why I have not pursued BCU, ACA, or CRCA instructor certification, "cause I know it could get boooooring real fast, though I do like exposure to skilled paddlers like Nigel Foster and Mike McLure, for example. Rather, I put on and/or assist with specific clinics of MY choice and liking. I do respect those who pursue their instructors certification. It is real dedication and patience. > >> >>I think it is great that Doug and Dave did this clinic, and I am a fan of >>Doug's postings on this list. I just wanted to give my own perspective. I >>have no apologies for not being Paddlewise and sea kayaking "politically >>correct." > >No need to not offer an apology :-) > >I have to be politically correct as possible as I work in a large Government office run mostly by women. We actually take courses on politically correct language and actions. We were actually told the threshold point for looking at a women the wrong way, after which point it becomes harassment. > >Some of my comments - fun stuff aside - were intended for a wider audience than you. I do feel strongly that being overly macho has attendant problems. You should read some of the Australian kayaking club newsletters. Australian male kayakers seem very aggressive and make rude comments in print about fragile female egos and women who can't keep up with their superior paddle pace. On second thought, maybe you should move down there! Just kidding Duane. > >BC'in Ya >Doug Lloyd > > >>Duane Strosaker >>Southern California >> >> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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