I owe this list a bit of an apology after my weird post late last night on Safety and Novices. The post was really two separate thoughts. The first one: I was genuinely worried about novices and lurkers getting the wrong ideas from some of the posts, especially mine - which tend toward the extreme end of the spectrum. It is a totally valid concern I made. The second thought had to do with the psychology of stress as it relates to things going sideways on a trip or outing. I don't think it came across very well - the whole thing about what happens in your brain when you realize you are up to your neck in do-do. I've interviewed and talked to enough people to have my interest in this topic sparked, and certainly have real life experience with it from my own close calls. Perhaps PW is not the forum for a discussion about it, especially when I can't fully express what I'm trying to wrestle through. At least there are places where one can disseminate information. The BCU coaching periodical covers these issues relating to fear and flight of fight responses. However, even they realize these are not topics for general discussion, and restrict it to their higher-end readers. The problem was my post contained both separate issues combined. I got raked over the coals by back-channel e-mail from one PW'er, and rightly so. This person even thought I was promoting novices to accept the view that determination is all you need. This is the _last_ thing I meant. So sorry if I screwed up by mixing ideas into one post. I truly am in my own strange little world some days, both behind the computer and on the water in high seas - though I did get one positive e-mail from a newbie female lurker, new to PW. And please bear in mind that Dave and I are under tremendous pressure right now. Sea Kayaker Magazine sent us the draft copy of the Storm Island rescue story, and there is a lot of friction right now. Also, both Dave and I, as macho, experienced, and as seemingly cavalier as we are about the incident, are both stressed to the max going over the draft, reliving the memory that imprinted itself on us for 8 hours. My post last night came close after sending off my revisions to the text to SK, and I was in a bad head space too, over my culpability thinking determination, will power and brute strength would get us through the situation of our making on the crossing. I think most of you all know me well enough on this list to know when I'm having one of my "moments". Be patient. I'm trying to develop a new paradigm for the new year, in terms of what I should be doing and saying on Paddlewise with respect to safety. I also have a very bad reputation in town around newbies, as I tend to unwittingly promote the more adventurous type of paddling (this is another reason I selectively only teach in certain situations). I need to address this issue too, and I am man enough to admit it hear. BTW, don't ever be shy in sending me private e-mails. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (bringing you yet another BC moment) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The first one: I was genuinely worried about novices and lurkers getting > the wrong ideas from some of the posts, especially mine - which > tend toward the extreme end of the spectrum. It is a totally valid > concern I made. <snip> > The problem was my post contained both separate issues combined. I got > raked over the coals by back-channel e-mail from one PW'er, and > rightly so. > This person even thought I was promoting novices to accept the view that > determination is all you need. This is the _last_ thing I meant. Doug, I feel your pain (on this issue at least). This happens to me all_the_time in back channel email from members of the local list server. I've been accused of "romanticizing the dangers of sea kayaking" and "setting the wrong example for novice paddlers". It used to bother me greatly (and still does a little) but I think it much more important for people to potentially learn from my mistakes than to die from their own. I'm not NEARLY the extreme kayaker you are. I paddle 99.99% on protected waters where a 3 foot wave is "the big one", yet I constantly get the same types of email you seem to get. There are those that want me to change the events or not post them. What a bunch of crap. I write them the way they happened, and if I did something unsafe, than I think it still needs to be said. Discuss openly what went right and what went wrong, but don't tell me to hide it. Back channel only serves to polarize the two view points. The lesson we give when we do this is not "you can do this too because I did it and I'm still alive", it is "I was in this <explicative> situation, here is what I did right and here is what I did wrong. I hope you can recognize when this is about to happen to you, so you can avoid it altogether. But if you can't this might help save your life." The only alternative Doug is to post the "we went paddling and everything was perfect and done safely the first time" trip reports. THIS is what can get a novice killed. You're not the one that needs to apologize... Woody P.S. Back channel emails can be sent to woodardr_at_dev.null *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, You need to be more like me and not worry so much about what you say on Paddlewise. I enjoyed your listing because I know it came from your heart. I don't give a damn if you combined two subjects. It was some good stuff. Don't try to be like SK Magazine where everything is so over edited that the writing doesn't have any spunk. This is all just another example of sea kayakers being so analytical that they aren't having nearly as much fun as they should. Now everyone rip me up. I love it. Duane Strosaker Sea Kayaking in Southern California with an Attitude for Adventure! <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/pirateseakayaker/index.html">Pirate Sea Kayaker</A> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:13 AM 1/15/00 EST, Strosaker_at_aol.com wrote: >writing doesn't have any spunk. This is all just another example of sea >kayakers being so analytical that they aren't having nearly as much fun as >they should. That does seem to be one of the downsides of the sport, doesn't it? -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug - Don't worry about the one or two e-mails from shoot-from-the-hip types who are basically looking for something they can complain about. Anyone who read the post (of yours) at all carefully would have gotten the correct idea. I agree with that person who observed that "back channel" is often used to press an issue - meaning to press a disagreement. Sometimes it helps to engage the back-channel person. Usually it doesn't help. Keep the good stuff flowing. - Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane, Just as there is no reason for Doug to apologize, there's no reason to rip you up. Although my paddling style is a little different from yours (I don't require nearly as much adrenaline as you) and I usually opt for calmer trips, doesn't mean I can't enjoy reading your posts. Although there are many times that I disagree with you, there are many times that we do agree. The important thing is that you are entitled to paddle whatever boat you wish, in whatever conditions you want and no one has the right to deny you any of those pleasures. As long as you aren't requiring me to do everything you are capable of doing, we'll get along great. As a fellow Southern Californian who also paddles plastic open deck boats and is also a member of CKF with you--I really enjoy reading your posts. KEEP THEM COMING PLEASE!! Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
i don't know about anyone else, but I thought the juxtaposition of the two thoughts made perfect sense, and that, together, they were the lesson to be learned from the post. And it was a valuable and important lesson, and I hope that it was taken to heart not only by those that already believe it, but by those who needed to hear it. On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:59:29 -0800 Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca> writes: > I owe this list a bit of an apology after my weird post late last > night on > Safety and Novices. The post was really two separate thoughts. > > SNIP > > The second thought had to do with the psychology of stress as it > relates to > things going sideways on a trip or outing. I don't think it came > across > very well - the whole thing about what happens in your brain when > you > realize you are up to your neck in do-do. > SNIP > The problem was my post contained both separate issues combined. I > got > raked over the coals by back-channel e-mail from one PW'er, and > rightly so. > This person even thought I was promoting novices to accept the view > that > determination is all you need. This is the _last_ thing I meant. > SNIP > So sorry if I screwed up by mixing ideas into one post. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, when something is as complex as your approach to/relationship with paddling appears to be, there will hardly ever be a simple way to express it. Sometimes -- perhaps this is your experience, too -- I learn what I think only after I have said it. You've certainly helped me as a paddle many times, by prompting me to think carefully and objectively about my own skills and limits. As I am sure that this has been one of your aims in writing, I appreciate it very much. Let me join so many others in thanking you for all your contributions. You are without a doubt one of the primary factors in PaddleWise's excellence. Bob Volin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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