Harold wrote: >> <major snip> In WW boats, the center pillar is usually curved up from the rear of the seat to provide somewhat of a stop >> That is essentially how I get my back support in my sea yak, with the wrap-around glass bulkhead described in an earlier post of mine giving that "back-to-the-wall" point of immobilization from going any further backwards when "standing on the pegs". But, as someone said, make sure you have enough back support so as to prevent injury to your quads. <snip> >>FWIW, the best investment a sea kayaker may ever make is to buy the self-inflating seat and back cushions intended for watersports by the good people of ThermaRest camp mattress fame...Warning -- secure cushions in securely when using in any kayak. A loose cushion can kill. Thanks to Doug for making that point graphically clear on his Victoria misadventure write-up in SK Mag.>> Thanks Harold, you just _had_ to bring that up didn't you, even after I specifically left it out of my recent post-reply regarding different back-bands/seat arrangements I've tried over the last two decades. Well, you are correct, the Thermarest combo of inflating seat and lumbar support items are w-o-n-d-e-r-f-u-l-l-y comfortable. I still miss the ones I took out of my Nordkapp after the incident. The back cushion I used is actually a special-order item from their medical line. It is fairly narrow, and is used as a chair-back lumbar support. I rigged mine like a normal back-band, but partially velcroed it to the aft-of-seat-bulkhead. The seat was also wonderful, but as I found out, unless tied-in securely, is a liability if it dislodges - which is what happened to me if anyone new in PW land missed the gory details.(It got pushed up against the front bulkhead mounted foot pump, which decidedly disadvantaged my self-rescue, just prior to zodiac rendered assistance). I've kept the Thermarest items for use in a home-built wood kayak one day. Whatever back-support people put in, make sure it allows for good torso rotation and doesn't inhibit your reentry and roll, if you depend upon that. Again, _thank's_ Harold! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who found out graphically that crime does pay, and in US funds) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >Now I just paddle a lot and do back exercises at the gym, and don't >need any back support whatsoever. <snip> I can also more easily >adjust trim by sliding back or forward a bit - something not entirely >possible with an arbitrary preset-distance back support. I do have a >slanted, wrap-around aft bulkhead that is padded with 1/4 inch foam, >such that if I lean back, I can get a modicum of support for rest >breaks <snipsnip> ====Interesting! But I find that I use the back band to help me press firmly against the foot pegs, for example when sprinting with the forward stroke, or when sweeping. Doug, how do you compensate for the absence of the back support when you need to "stand on the pegs?" Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Anyway, to your question: with the slanted wrap-around bulkhead I have just >behind my foam seat, I am able to, by changing the angle of my feet on the >Seaward pivoting/rudder foot control pads, push myself back an inch and >engage my lower low back and get the support for a more correct paddle >motion technique using one's legs for pumping. === Makes good sense to me, thanks for the clarification. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Speaking of outfitting, last night I went and borrowed a WW kayak to use in some up-coming pool rolling sessions (I didn't want to take up the entire pool with my 17 1/2 footer) and I noticed that it doesn't have any sort of back rest. I know zero about WW boats so is this normal? The seat curls up about an inch in the back and there is a slanting column behind the seat but it's a bit far back to be supportive. It's a really snug fit on the thighs and hips so I'm thinking it's not issue. What do you think? It's an old Perception Mirage if that helps. Thanks, Joe *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe Brzoza wrote: > > Speaking of outfitting, last night I went and borrowed a WW kayak to use in > some up-coming pool rolling sessions (I didn't want to take up the entire > pool with my 17 1/2 footer) and I noticed that it doesn't have any sort of > back rest. I know zero about WW boats so is this normal? The seat curls up > about an inch in the back and there is a slanting column behind the seat but > it's a bit far back to be supportive. > > It's a really snug fit on the thighs and hips so I'm thinking it's not > issue. What do you think? > > It's an old Perception Mirage if that helps. WW boats didn't used to come with backbands, but some (eg, Pyranha) do now, and most people I know add one. Without some back support, your quads are supporting your upper body, and if I paddle like that they're screaming the next day. Actually, they're screaming after about 2 miles. If you're just pool rolling with it, it doesn't matter much, but you might want to add a backband. Doesn't have to be fancy; my son used to us 2" webbing in his WW boat. I would suggest you outfit it to as much back support as your SK, so that you don't learn a wayback lean roll that you can't do in your "real" boat. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/19/00 8:42:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, joebr_at_burton.com writes: > I went and borrowed a WW kayak to use in > some up-coming pool rolling sessions (I didn't want to take up the entire > pool with my 17 1/2 footer) and I noticed that it doesn't have any sort of > back rest. I know zero about WW boats so is this normal? Yes, it always has been, but that is changing. I, like most WW paddlers I know, only miss the backrest when we are not actively paddling. The effectiveness of the aggressive thigh braces and hip pads allows you to hold yourself upright and in paddling position, and to transfer power to the footpegs without the need for a backrest. In teaching sea kayaking, where I use different boats all the time, none of which are customized to fit, I initially had to be very careful to adjust the seat back or back band (my preference) and the foot pegs each time I got into a different boat. These days, I almost always forget to fiddle with the back and find that I can paddle just fine with my backside sometimes totally unsupported. If the boat is too tall in the foredeck for me, without proper thigh braces, then the back adjustment becomes more important for comfort. In WW boats, the center pillar is usually curved up from the rear of the seat to provide somewhat of a stop, similar to the foam someone recently described installing in his touring boat. Some people install after-market backbands to provide lower back (actually hip) support, and some boats now come with removable foam bolsters which provide support. FWIW, the best investment a sea kayaker may ever make is to buy the self-inflating seat and back cushions intended for watersports by the good people of ThermaRest camp mattress fame. I can install those two items in most any boat and have instant customization which is pretty close to as good as it gets. I still lack hip support in some boats, but the seat cushion can raise or lower me to adjust thigh bracing, elbow/coaming clearance, lateral stability, and thigh support/tush-cush. The back cushion, in its gripper-rubber adjustable-strapped slipcover, can be mounted on the seat back or backband to perfectly fill in the lumbar region of the back, providing marvelous support and fit. Warning -- secure cushions in securely when using in any kayak. A loose cushion can kill. Thanks to Doug for making that point graphically clear on his Victoria misadventure write-up in SK Mag. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/19/00 11:09:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, dlloyd_at_telus.net writes: Harold wrote: >> <major snip>> . A loose cushion can kill. Thanks to >> Doug for making that point graphically clear on his Victoria misadventure >> write-up in SK Mag.>> > Thanks Harold, you just _had_ to bring that up didn't you, even after I > specifically left it out of my recent post-reply Yup, Doug -- once the knife's in, it's my job to twist it. <G> Actually, this is an excellent time for me to add my vote of appreciation (among those which recently came out on this list) to you for your habit of blatantly confessing to every mistake made in kayaking. Your articles and postings are valuable memory aids for me -- reminding me of all the mistakes I have made, many I have foreseen as glaring possibilities, and a few that I haven't even thought of yet. I know that you've felt a little shell-shocked recently, but believe me when I say that the appreciation couched in all my poorly-stated sarcastic humor is real. Thanks for the good work. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Back-channel, I was contacted about more info on the Cascade Designs seats I recommended for outfitting. When I checked for the correct names, I found that the product line can be confusing. Therm-a-Rest offers a sport seat which is best used for stadium seating and the like. I don't recommend that one. The one I use is called the "Touring Seat" and is offered under the Sealine product line. It is built more appropriately for paddling and also has loops around its perimeter for tying into the boat. I just use a length of nylon cord, tie it to one loop, run it under the seat corners, threading it through all the other loops to hold the cushion to the seat bottom, then I tie the cord off on the first loop. Easy to do, easy to remove. The lumbar cushion (about 7 x 15 inches) is called the "Back Rest" and is sold in the Therm-a-Rest product line. Cascade Designs offers (or offered - I can't find it in any on-line catalogs) a slipcover for the Back Rest which has a wicking layer on the front side, nylon back, and a strap with side-release buckle to enable you to mount the cushion around a chair, airline seat back or whatever. Where the strap mounts to the ends of the slipcover, it Y's out to give two points of contact on each side. I use the pad in various boats by threading the strap around the seat-back or backband strap, running the loose ends back through opening formed by the arms of the "Y", then fasten the buckle behind the backband pad. If I was using the Back Rest in only one boat, I would probably make a custom cover for the backband/seatback which would accept the cushion and close with Velcro. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe Brzoza wrote: > > Speaking of outfitting, last night I went and borrowed a WW kayak to use in > some up-coming pool rolling sessions (I didn't want to take up the entire > pool with my 17 1/2 footer) and I noticed that it doesn't have any sort of > back rest. I know zero about WW boats so is this normal? Steve Cramer wrote: >WW boats didn't used to come with backbands, but some (eg, Pyranha) do >now, and most people I know add one. Without some back support, your >quads are supporting your upper body, and if I paddle like that they're >screaming the next day. Actually, they're screaming after about 2 miles. >If you're just pool rolling with it, it doesn't matter much, but you >might want to add a backband. Doesn't have to be fancy; my son used to >us 2" webbing in his WW boat. I would suggest you outfit it to as much >back support as your SK, so that you don't learn a wayback lean roll >that you can't do in your "real" boat. I just thought I'd follow up on my first pool session. With about a 1/2 hour of 1 on 1 instruction I was able to pull off my first ever roll - a C to C roll (I hope Derek H. isn't reading). It must have been obvious that I was a newbie so another participant offered me some assistance - to which I was greatly appreciative. Afterwards I was told by another of her credentials and multiple certifications and that I was lucky to get such "world class" instruction. So I continued to practice for the next hour and a half, only stopping to occasionally empty the kayak of water - I was using a coated nylon touring skirt. I can't say that I have a bomb-proof roll right yet but I can nail it by the second or third try. Next week I'll work on my off-side and maybe try a different type of roll - perhaps the Pawletta (sp?). A few things I'll do different: 1.) Add a backband of some sort. 2.) Stretch out before hand. 3.) Add minicell at knee and heel contact points (and wear booties) My quads and hamstrings hurt so bad today I can barely walk! I should have listened to Steve. And my knees are bruised from jamming them into the deck. So we'll have to fix that for next time. I'll offer one last tip to anyone trying to learn how to roll, SNAP that hip. The books I have read haven't really emphasized how powerful that movement must be. I first started out just kind of rolling my hip over and that didn't work worth beans. Once my instructor got it through my head to really thrust my hip it became much easier. So easy that I had to learn to brace on the other side or I'd go right over again. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:07 PDT