In a message dated 1/6/00 6:54:15 PM, evan_at_eeaston.com writes: << Wow, this could get very expensive. I think it would be very difficult to get quantitatively useful results>> I disagree, even if the results are only "in the ballpark" then that's infinitely better than we have today. I suspect we can do much better than that. It won't be perfect but what is? <<To really understand the durability of a boat you have to use _many_ copies of the same boat and do _many_ tests like:And then you'd have to repeat it all many times to prove that a particular failure wasn't the result of a boat that was contributing to the low end of the mean-time-to-failure curve.>> How many is many? Yes, we would have to follow your description to work data out to the nth degree but who said we needed that kind of accuracy? Again, I say, any information is better than none. I agree with the details of your argument but not the spirit. <<Very expensive.>> If done as you have described, yes. <<If this sounds extreme, then consider the way that cars's safety is determined (that is fully assembled cars). You crash them and . .>> Kayaks have very little in common with cars. Do you group them together because they're both vehicles? Because we sit in them both? Again the details of your argument are coherent, in that limited scope, but the premise is way off. <<So, what's my point? I don't really know, I'm just blathering. Maybe the points are: - When (and if) anyone ever devises a durability test, be skeptical about its ability to answer the question, "should I buy boat X instead of boat Y." - It can only be good for us (consumers) to get the word out about the problems we encounter; this is much like the paddler safety incident articles in Sea Kayaker and those in other magazines like Flying. >> A durability test would be, as you know, and indication of relative durability and by no means should it be misconstrued as a recommendation for one boat over another. Please try to remember the origins of this thread, the British boat's strength vs weight. I asked the group about the durability of the NDK Explorer because I have a north american boat, with which I'm dissatisfied. I agree that the anecdotal data should be freely shared and disseminated throughout our community. But this thread is about information that is not otherwise available nor otherwise attainable. << Smart people learn from failures.>> So true, and the smartest people learn from the smart people's failures. Evan, you obviously have a keen insight for the testing issues. Why not help design tests that have real-World value and can be conducted at a reasonable expense. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I disagree, even if the results are only "in the ballpark" > then that's infinitely better than we have today. I > suspect we can do much better than > that. It won't be perfect but what is? It might be useful to you and I, but could be disastrous to a manufacturer. After only a few tests if it showed your competitor to be 10% stronger, this could drastically impact your sales, especially once your competitor got hold of the results. With a ~30% variance between panels, it could probably easily be shown either of two kayaks was superior. > A durability test would be, as you know, and indication of relative > durability and by no means should it be misconstrued as a > recommendation for > one boat over another. Please try to remember the origins of > this thread, > the British boat's strength vs weight. I asked the group about the > durability of the NDK Explorer because I have a north american boat, with > which I'm dissatisfied. Just a thought: Would it be prohibitive to lay up an extra layer of glass inside your current north American boat? The extra layer of glass should make your boat far superior than the extra epoxy of a hand laid up boat. Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Kayaks have very little in common with cars. Do you group them together > because they're both vehicles? Because we sit in them both? Again the > details of your argument are coherent, in that limited scope, but the premise > is way off. I chose cars because they are an example of something: - people care about the quality of - are fairly expensive (to test and destroy) - whose quality as an assembled produce cannot necessarily be determined by the quality of its parts > Evan, you obviously have a keen insight for the testing issues. Why not > help design tests that have real-World value and can be conducted at a > reasonable expense. I'll sleep on this one. I have no engineering experience, but I want to put my money in the right boat. In fact, I'm considering buying an Explorer myself. It durability is pretty apparent (anecdotally). However, when it's time to buy the wife's boat (she's very concerned about its weight) it would be nice to know more on this topic so maybe we'd could get her a lighter boat.. Evan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> How many is many? Good question. It depends :-) > Yes, we would have to follow your description to work > data out to the nth degree but who said we needed that kind of accuracy? > Again, I say, any information is better than none. I agree with the details > of your argument but not the spirit. I (in my sometimes cynical way) was trying to impart that, some information isn't always better than none. Information is easily misused*. I was not trying to discourage discussion of whether heavier is better, just infuse some healthy skepticism. Evan * Here are couple of entertaining, quick-reading, small books on how numbers can be misued: John Allen Paulos, "Innumeracy" Darrell Huff, "How to Lie with Statistics" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Just a thought: Would it be prohibitive to lay up an extra layer of glass inside your current north American boat? The extra layer of glass should make your boat far superior than the extra epoxy of a hand laid up boat. Woody >> *************************************************************************** You could probably order the boat with extra glass. I bought my old Sealution second-hand, and the previous owner had ordered it with a reinforced deck. The deck was definitely stiffer than that of the production Sealution, which I thought was way too flimsy. As for Romanys, I inadvertently gave my Romany Explorer a couple of stress tests while the kayak was strapped on the car by filling the fore and aft compartments with water to check for leaks. Some time after, I noticed four slight dimplings in the hull where it comes into contact with the rack, and a slight stress crack in the gelcoat on the foredeck, but that's all, and I really don't know whether they were caused by my tests or not. I certainly didn't hear any groans or cracking sounds during the tests. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Chuck Holst wrote: > As for Romanys, I inadvertently gave my Romany Explorer a couple of stress > tests while the kayak was strapped on the car by filling the fore and aft > compartments with water to check for leaks. Some time after, I noticed four > slight dimplings in the hull where it comes into contact with the rack, and > a slight stress crack in the gelcoat on the foredeck, but that's all, and I > really don't know whether they were caused by my tests or not. I certainly > didn't hear any groans or cracking sounds during the tests. which part was inadvertant??!! mark -- #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.jacknjillz.com/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner. - English Proverb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Chuck Holst wrote: > As for Romanys, I inadvertently gave my Romany Explorer a couple of stress > tests while the kayak was strapped on the car by filling the fore and aft > compartments with water to check for leaks. Some time after, I noticed four > slight dimplings in the hull where it comes into contact with the rack, and > a slight stress crack in the gelcoat on the foredeck, but that's all, and I > really don't know whether they were caused by my tests or not. I certainly > didn't hear any groans or cracking sounds during the tests. which part was inadvertant??!! mark >> Giving it a stress test. I didn't think about the possibility of the weight of the water damaging the kayak until well afterwards. I guess I just had a lot of confidence in the sturdiness of Romanys. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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