I apologize if this thread has been visited as I realize there's a lot of info on folding boats and this is a very long e-mail. I'm planning to buy a folding boat to complement my hardshell. I'm just not sure what would be the best model to buy as trying out a boat will most likely be impossible since most of these boats would be special ordered in my area and unfortunately I don't know anyone with these particular models of folding boats. One decision I've made is that I would like to get a Feathercraft, now just what model, although I think right now I'm leaning toward the Khatsalano S. I've got the literature from Feathercraft and also Ralph's book. I'll give you a bit of history of my experience and boat use as that will make a difference. Experience: - have paddled sprint racing flatwater kayaks & canoes, so balance is pretty good. I'm not sure what the kayak beam is across but probably 18 inches or less, rounded hull. Have paddled about 10-15 years. - currently paddle a Current Designs GTS, 22 inches. Unfortunately, bought the high volume and is a bit too big for me and haven't bothered to customize it yet, so not the best feel for the boat. I usually sit on a thermarest seat cushion so I can be higher up. - previously owned a Current Designs SS, 22 inches, smaller fitting boat, fit like a glove and it was nice to play around with -- but I sold it so I could get more storage - roll, I'd say is kind of non-existent since I haven't bothered to try with the GTS since I'm moving around too much in the boat. With the SS, could roll but not bomb proof. I've never put much effort in rolling since I don't think it's that important -- if it looks like I can't handle it, I don't bother going out. I do know how to do self-rescues, etc. Could probably pick up the roll if I really wanted to, although maybe not bombproof. - paddle mostly around the Great Lakes, Georgian Bay area, so really not used to ocean paddling, tides, currents, etc., but have paddled many times on the east & west coast, Mexico and other places on vacation Classification of experience: I don't know, maybe intermediate??? I guess good bracing -- more or less second nature because of the sprint kayaks. I don't really think that much if I'm going to perform a high or low brace, just do it naturally as the need arises. Paddle style: more vertical stroke. Usually use a paddle about 215 but sometimes will use my scoop paddle which is even shorter. I would probably end up buying a four-piece paddle at 220, though, so I can stuff it in the backpack. Uses for the Folding boat: - plan to take it on vacation with me. Would probably use my hardshell when I'm at home, and take the folding when it's more convenient or as an extra for someone else to paddle -- whichever boat they feel more comfortable with. - would like to do trips of two weeks in length, possibly more -- and this would include the arctic - I tend to like to take the kitchen sink, but am a very efficient packer, although I can skimp if I have to - would probably have a deck bag on top, and large camera case on back, extra paddles, whatever, if I was on an expedition so that may prevent rolling if I did develop a half decent roll anyway - usually would paddle with someone else, but occasionally on my own, likely daytrips in that case - not really interested in going out in big surf - I definitely would like to feel comfortable, not having to worry if I'm going to dump in freezing cold water (I do have a drysuit, but still would like to stay on top). Paddling in cold water is something I'd be in more than not so I need to have a certain comfort level. Choices: Expedition K1 -- pros -- lots of storage room, very stable cons -- is the boat too big for me -- I'm 5 foot 3 inches and a small to medium build. 25 inch beam sounds pretty big to me and I'm afraid I might swim in it. Khatsalano -- 22 inches -- too advanced??? Khatsalano S -- 23.5 inches -- Is there enough room for a two-week arctic kayak expedition, also assuming if I was doing a trip, there'd be at least someone else so we're sharing some of the gear. Right amount of stability that I will reach a certain comfort level -- I don't have to do headstands in the boat! Your thoughts are appreciated. thanks. wendy *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wendy Ogaki wrote: > > I'm planning to buy a folding boat to complement my hardshell. I'm just not > sure what would be the best model to buy as trying out a boat will most > likely be impossible since most of these boats would be special ordered in > my area and unfortunately I don't know anyone with these particular models > of folding boats. One decision I've made is that I would like to get a > Feathercraft, now just what model, although I think right now I'm leaning > toward the Khatsalano S. I've got the literature from Feathercraft and also > Ralph's book. > > I'll give you a bit of history of my experience and boat use as that will > make a difference. > > Experience: > > - have paddled sprint racing flatwater kayaks & canoes, so balance is pretty > good. I'm not sure what the kayak beam is across but probably 18 inches or > less, rounded hull. Have paddled about 10-15 years. Don't even think about buying the Khats S. It'll feel like driving a bus (other than the speed). I personally feel the Khats S was designed for folks who shouldn't be in a skinny boat to begin with, overly relying on the sponsons to keep them from tipping over, but in a boat that with sponsons inflated would be a difficult boat to roll back up. How many Khatsalanos do you see come up for resale compared to the high number of Khats Ss? Food for thought. Even the Khats (standard) will feel big in terms of boat fit and overly stable for you (without the sponsons inflated). At 5'3", you'll find the rear deck very high for layback rolls (for when you do decide to work on skill building). I personally feel Doug Simpson, head of F-craft should try his hand at a Khatsalano Sport model with about a 20~21" beam and lower deck for easier layback. Pick up some of the lost volume by adding another half foot or so in length - maybe split the bow float bag to fit around the bow keel frame to add more bow volume. But keep it designed from the outset for paddlers in the 120~170 lb. range. I have too many friends in that weight range interested in my Khats but who feel the boat is on the large side for them. Any PaddleWisers want to add their two cents to this - or challenge it? I might forward the results on to Doug. > Paddle style: more vertical stroke. Usually use a paddle about 215 but > sometimes will use my scoop paddle which is even shorter. I would probably > end up buying a four-piece paddle at 220, though, so I can stuff it in the > backpack. You should be able to get one (maybe two) two piece paddle(s) at the 216~218 cm length inside the backpack (which comes w/ blade pockets on the sides - outside). No real need to pick up a new paddle with less blade area and more joints just to travel with your boat. F-craft also sells a larger, looser soft case which is supposed to be better for airline travel (my backpack-& Khats in it-took a real beating). > Uses for the Folding boat: > - plan to take it on vacation with me. Would probably use my hardshell when > I'm at home, and take the folding when it's more convenient or as an extra > for someone else to paddle -- whichever boat they feel more comfortable > with. Having a hardshell in addition to your Khats will work out well in order to break the boat down for maintenance regularly w/o putting a crimp in your regular/local paddling plans. > - would like to do trips of two weeks in length, possibly more -- and this > would include the arctic > - I tend to like to take the kitchen sink, but am a very efficient packer, > although I can skimp if I have to > - would probably have a deck bag on top, and large camera case on back, > extra paddles, whatever, if I was on an expedition so that may prevent > rolling if I did develop a half decent roll anyway Not necessarily. Start out rolling with the local whitewater group and work on & offside proficiency in a basic C2C roll and you should be in good standing for expeditioning. Aim to eventually Reenter & Roll. > - usually would paddle with someone else, but occasionally on my own, likely > daytrips in that case > - not really interested in going out in big surf Word of advice; breaking surf will quickly strip years off your Khats - it certainly has mine. On the upside, the standard Khats is one beautiful craft to paddle in big conditions (storm paddling) and will survive some amount of surf abuse if you do get stuck on the outside with dark approaching. > - I definitely would like to feel comfortable, not having to worry if I'm > going to dump in freezing cold water (I do have a drysuit, but still would > like to stay on top). Paddling in cold water is something I'd be in more > than not so I need to have a certain comfort level. Unless you paddle a Klepper, you may eventually end up in the water. Learn to roll. > Choices: > > Expedition K1 -- pros -- lots of storage room, very stable > cons -- is the boat too big for me -- I'm 5 foot 3 inches and a small to > medium build. 25 inch beam sounds pretty big to me and I'm afraid I might > swim in it. You will swim in it, but if you reeally want the added stability, then keep the K1 in mind. It definitely has the cargo space for your kitchen sink! > Khatsalano -- 22 inches -- too advanced??? Best boat for you. Not at all advanced for you. Will be the most fun - day in, day out. Good camping ability with 1~2 week capability. Just learn to roll, please. > Khatsalano S -- 23.5 inches -- Is there enough room for a two-week arctic > kayak expedition, also assuming if I was doing a trip, there'd be at least > someone else so we're sharing some of the gear. Right amount of stability > that I will reach a certain comfort level -- I don't have to do headstands > in the boat! Good stable platform for stand up photography. Feel free to contact me with questions regarding my Khats and its set-up, etc. Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As you can see from Vince's answer, there are paddlers and there are paddlers. Vince is a more skilled one and will look at the varying forms of the Khats in a different way then someone coming from the other side might. A few of my own comments: Vince Dalrymple wrote: > > Wendy Ogaki wrote: > > > > I'm planning to buy a folding boat to complement my hardshell. I'm just not > > sure what would be the best model to buy as trying out a boat will most > > likely be impossible since most of these boats would be special ordered in > > my area and unfortunately I don't know anyone with these particular models > > of folding boats. One decision I've made is that I would like to get a > > Feathercraft, now just what model, although I think right now I'm leaning > > toward the Khatsalano S. > > Experience: > > > > - have paddled sprint racing flatwater kayaks & canoes, so balance is pretty > > good. I'm not sure what the kayak beam is across but probably 18 inches or > > less, rounded hull. Have paddled about 10-15 years. > Don't even think about buying the Khats S. It'll feel like driving a > bus (other than the speed). I personally feel the Khats S was designed > for folks who shouldn't be in a skinny boat to begin with, overly > relying on the sponsons to keep them from tipping over, but in a boat > that with sponsons inflated would be a difficult boat to roll back up. > How many Khatsalanos do you see come up for resale compared to the high > number of Khats Ss? Food for thought. Given your background, Vince is absolutely right. If you have the balancing skills to go in a skinny boat, then by all means go for the skinnier version of the Khats. I would agree with Vince only in part. _Both_ versions, the standard (in which you can elect to inflate or not inflate the smallish built-in sponsons, is in itself a compromise boat that was redesigned up from the non-sponsoned version because paddlers seem to want something very skinny but couldn't handle it) and the Khats-S in which you must use the sponsons all the time (these are medium sized), are meant to give a measure of training wheels to a skinny boat. One is just more training wheels than the other. As for who has a right to be in a skinny boat, I don't see how anyone should be denied going skinny or seemingly skinny. A boat like the Khats-S actually bridges a lot of worlds quite nicely. It is not a barge or bus. As for the numbers of Khats Standard vs. Khat-S's for resale, the numbers reflect to some degree the number of sales of one versus the other. But it is true that some paddlers who bought the Khats-S as an excursion into the realm of skinny, found that it wasn't to their liking nor did it make them better paddlers. Something akin to this happened in the late 1980s when many a paddler was conned into buying a Nordkapp as a boat to grow into and it did not turn out to be that easy. The glut of used Nordkapps on the market was astounding but a blessing to good paddlers who could get used ones for a song from sellers desperate to get rid of them. I know of one determined paddler here who went out some 50 times with his Nordkapp until he finally felt one with it and confident and comfortable. In the Khats-S I have known people who really wanted it no matter what and opted eventually to put in ballast for the security it gave them. > > Even the Khats (standard) will feel big in terms of boat fit and overly > stable for you (without the sponsons inflated). At 5'3", you'll find > the rear deck very high for layback rolls (for when you do decide to > work on skill building). The trouble in the Khats is not so much the high rear deck but rather the high seatback. It is relatively easy to resolve this...cut down the plastic board used for back support within the seatback cushion. It is something I am recommending this fix in my next issue for those who want to roll any of the Feathercrafts with a sweep, layback roll. > > I personally feel Doug Simpson, head of F-craft should try his hand at a > Khatsalano Sport model with about a 20~21" beam and lower deck for > easier layback. Pick up some of the lost volume by adding another half > foot or so in length - maybe split the bow float bag to fit around the > bow keel frame to add more bow volume. But keep it designed from the > outset for paddlers > in the 120~170 lb. range. I have too many friends in that weight range > interested in my Khats but who feel the boat is on the large side for > them. Any PaddleWisers want to add their two cents to this - or > challenge it? I might forward the results on to Doug. If you are forwarding requests to Doug ask him for me and a lot of others to make a longer version of the K-Light. The world is waiting for a 15 foot K-Light. It would blow the socks over any other conventional folding single. Adding two feet would still give us a 40 pound nice single for the way most of us paddle, i.e. not like Doug (...Lloyd not Simpson) or Vince, the hurricane chasers respectively (and respected) of the West and East Coasts :-) Incidentally, at your weight and need for stability, you may want to opt for the K-Light even at its present 13 foot length. It is a speedy enough boat, very agile and sporty feeling and accelerates well. Sometimes smaller paddlers actually can do better in a smaller boat than a longer boat. At least give it a try. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wendy, I'm no expert but I have paddled both of these boats and own a 99 K1. I'm just 4 inches taller than you and it fits me fine. It sounds to me like you are a dry paddler on the whole, as am I. The Khatsalano is more the wet paddler's boat. It sits lower in the water and you tend to get a good deal wetter. It probably rolls easier that the K1 but I couldn't say. They are both fast. If you are serious about being 2 weeks out and potentially in the arctic it seems to me the K1 is the boat for you. If you go with the Khatsalano I'd really recommend the S. I think you'd survive long days on the water much less fatigued. I went through the same drill before I decided and it took me nearly a year. Don't waste that kind of time. Get one of them and start enjoying it. Andy C. Anderson Johnson email: carljohn_at_usc.edu -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Wendy Ogaki Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 9:33 PM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Feathercraft Khatsalano, S and Expedition K1 I apologize if this thread has been visited as I realize there's a lot of info on folding boats and this is a very long e-mail. I'm planning to buy a folding boat to complement my hardshell. I'm just not sure what would be the best model to buy as trying out a boat will most likely be impossible since most of these boats would be special ordered in my area and unfortunately I don't know anyone with these particular models of folding boats. One decision I've made is that I would like to get a Feathercraft, now just what model, although I think right now I'm leaning toward the Khatsalano S. I've got the literature from Feathercraft and also Ralph's book. I'll give you a bit of history of my experience and boat use as that will make a difference. Experience: - have paddled sprint racing flatwater kayaks & canoes, so balance is pretty good. I'm not sure what the kayak beam is across but probably 18 inches or less, rounded hull. Have paddled about 10-15 years. - currently paddle a Current Designs GTS, 22 inches. Unfortunately, bought the high volume and is a bit too big for me and haven't bothered to customize it yet, so not the best feel for the boat. I usually sit on a thermarest seat cushion so I can be higher up. - previously owned a Current Designs SS, 22 inches, smaller fitting boat, fit like a glove and it was nice to play around with -- but I sold it so I could get more storage - roll, I'd say is kind of non-existent since I haven't bothered to try with the GTS since I'm moving around too much in the boat. With the SS, could roll but not bomb proof. I've never put much effort in rolling since I don't think it's that important -- if it looks like I can't handle it, I don't bother going out. I do know how to do self-rescues, etc. Could probably pick up the roll if I really wanted to, although maybe not bombproof. - paddle mostly around the Great Lakes, Georgian Bay area, so really not used to ocean paddling, tides, currents, etc., but have paddled many times on the east & west coast, Mexico and other places on vacation Classification of experience: I don't know, maybe intermediate??? I guess good bracing -- more or less second nature because of the sprint kayaks. I don't really think that much if I'm going to perform a high or low brace, just do it naturally as the need arises. Paddle style: more vertical stroke. Usually use a paddle about 215 but sometimes will use my scoop paddle which is even shorter. I would probably end up buying a four-piece paddle at 220, though, so I can stuff it in the backpack. Uses for the Folding boat: - plan to take it on vacation with me. Would probably use my hardshell when I'm at home, and take the folding when it's more convenient or as an extra for someone else to paddle -- whichever boat they feel more comfortable with. - would like to do trips of two weeks in length, possibly more -- and this would include the arctic - I tend to like to take the kitchen sink, but am a very efficient packer, although I can skimp if I have to - would probably have a deck bag on top, and large camera case on back, extra paddles, whatever, if I was on an expedition so that may prevent rolling if I did develop a half decent roll anyway - usually would paddle with someone else, but occasionally on my own, likely daytrips in that case - not really interested in going out in big surf - I definitely would like to feel comfortable, not having to worry if I'm going to dump in freezing cold water (I do have a drysuit, but still would like to stay on top). Paddling in cold water is something I'd be in more than not so I need to have a certain comfort level. Choices: Expedition K1 -- pros -- lots of storage room, very stable cons -- is the boat too big for me -- I'm 5 foot 3 inches and a small to medium build. 25 inch beam sounds pretty big to me and I'm afraid I might swim in it. Khatsalano -- 22 inches -- too advanced??? Khatsalano S -- 23.5 inches -- Is there enough room for a two-week arctic kayak expedition, also assuming if I was doing a trip, there'd be at least someone else so we're sharing some of the gear. Right amount of stability that I will reach a certain comfort level -- I don't have to do headstands in the boat! Your thoughts are appreciated. thanks. wendy *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Andy Johnson wrote: > > The Khatsalano is more the wet paddler's boat. It sits lower in the water and you > tend to get a good deal wetter. Andy is dead on, here. A few notes out of my mental logbook: While paddling a particular section of coast on that island trip (mentioned in my last post)I was running with the boat fully loaded with a very fast current / very long wavelength swell (up to about 4') pushing from behind. Sprinting to catch the waves left the bow submerged, often for very long periods throwing water off the front hatch (have since come up with a device to prevent this). And once caught and adjusted up onto the wave's shoulder, an awful lot of time was spent leaned _well_back_ in stern ruddering position (longest, fastest rides I've yet experienced), often throwing the brakes out to keep from running that outta control bus into the wave ahead with enough force to really bury the bow which could lead to a pearling broach and quick capsize. As the morning wore on and a couple minor points were rounded taking me out of the main current running up the coast, the tail wind picked up setting up a shorter, (still) fast chop steepening up to about 2'. Sprinting the loaded boat fast enough to catch that shorter stuff took too much energy and so resigned myself to a somewhat slower pace than it was running. Not so bad at first while it was in the 1' range and washing up the rear deck without incident, but became a steady nuisance as it rose to about the 2' level, mixing with occasional swells to become larger still. These would wash up the rear deck intact (moving the spare paddle and paddle float around), then break over my back, neck and shoulders. After about a half hour~hour of this, I decided enough was enough and put in for a break. > They are > both fast. If you are serious about being 2 weeks out and potentially in the > arctic it seems to me the K1 is the boat for you. If you go with the > Khatsalano I'd really recommend the S. I think you'd survive long days on > the water much less fatigued. Ageed. Both the Khats and K1 are very good boats. Still differ from most on the Khats S, though. Choose one and go paddle, Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry if this gets confusing, folks. Accidently sent this just to Ralph last night, so it is out of order - but hopefully not out of line. ;-) Vince Dalrymple wrote: > > ralph diaz wrote: > > > > I would agree with Vince only in part. > > _Both_ versions, the standard (in which you can elect to inflate or not > > inflate the smallish built-in sponsons, is in itself a compromise boat > > that was redesigned up from the non-sponsoned version because paddlers > > seem to want something very skinny but couldn't handle it) > > Not so much the stability, Ralph, as getting used to a v-bottom hard > chine design. > Ken Fink "tested" me in the original Khats (and expected a quick > capsize, I think), and the trick was to not fight for a vertical rest > position, but to just let the craft settle over on a chine 'til getting > under way. > > One of the few times I actually preferred having the sponsons on the > current Khats inflated (in retrospect) was a swim support - spray skirt > open, gallon jug of water in one hand, cup and lg. Gu bottle in the > other, paddle somewhere, and my swimmer grabbing hold of the gunwale for > some support during the quick breaks. Ever feel like a bartender on a > unicycle with your customers pulling on your coat tails for service?? > > Another was a solo paddle to go 3~4 days at a time unsupported around a > fairly rugged but populated island. Weighed down with extra water, > heavy camp gear and clothes, etc., the water line was within an inch or > two of the rear deck - and this was with the bow, stern, and sponsons as > inflated as possible given that amount of cramming. > > Other than those few times, the sponsons have stayed only about 1/4 > inflated - helps tension the skin to run about 1/2~1 kt. faster. Any > more inflated and they become a noticeable hindrance to rolling. > > > and the Khats-S in which you must use the sponsons all the time (these are > > medium sized), are meant to give a measure of training wheels to a > > skinny boat. One is just more training wheels than the other. > > The price paid for those training wheels comes in the form of difficulty > righting the boat if it should go over. The same force that once kept > you upright is now working against you to keep you inverted and the flat > Greenland style deck will not help matters any. I have yet to try > rolling with a full camp load (sponsons fully inflated), but presume it > might be easier than without such a load. I did experiment with keel > ballast, though. Better kept in round hull, round deck boats. With its > flat deck and some air in the sponsons, the Khats becomes very difficult > to initiate the roll (up to the 90 degree mark). The only benefit > (besides the obvious force against initial capsize) was easier roll > finish. > > > As for who has a right to be in a skinny boat, I don't see how anyone should be > > denied going skinny or seemingly skinny. A boat like the Khats-S > > actually bridges a lot of worlds quite nicely. It is not a barge or > > bus. > > There are enough Khats Ss circulating around that no one will be denied > a "skinny boat" anytime soon, even if Doug stopped making them today. > And what does the Khats S do better for the stability minded paddler > that the K1 or an elongated K-Light couldn't do (besides cruising speed) > and without giving them the performance that might get them into trouble > WHEN they actually do capsize? > > > As for the numbers of Khats Standard vs. Khat-S's for resale, the > > numbers reflect to some degree the number of sales of one versus the > > other. But it is true that some paddlers who bought the Khats-S as an > > excursion into the realm of skinny, found that it wasn't to their liking > > nor did it make them better paddlers. > > And big sponsons or heavy keel ballasts on flat decked boats with big > sponsons are no magic bullet. Skills are the answer - no magic here; > just hard work and experience. > > > Something akin to this happened in the late 1980s when many a paddler was conned > into buying a Nordkapp as a boat to grow into and it did not turn out to be that > easy. The glut of used Nordkapps on the market was astounding but a blessing to > > good paddlers who could get used ones for a song from sellers desperate > > to get rid of them. I know of one determined paddler here who went out > > some 50 times with his Nordkapp until he finally felt one with it and > > confident and comfortable. In the Khats-S I have known people who > > really wanted it no matter what and opted eventually to put in ballast > > for the security it gave them. > > > The trouble in the Khats is not so much the high rear deck but rather > > the high seatback. It is relatively easy to resolve this...cut down the > > plastic board used for back support within the seatback cushion. > > Mine has been ground down to just under the coaming for about a year > now. The coaming takes the brunt of the weight during layback rolling. > The deck is too high to effectively layback onto without raising the > butt out of the seat by several inches - doable but painful and too > unstable to finish a hand roll. > > > It is something I am recommending this fix in my next issue for those who want > > to roll any of the Feathercrafts with a sweep, layback roll. > > > If you are forwarding requests to Doug ask him for me and a lot of > > others to make a longer version of the K-Light. The world is waiting > > for a 15 foot K-Light. It would blow the socks over any other > > conventional folding single. Adding two feet would still give us a 40 > > pound nice single for the way most of us paddle, i.e. not like Doug > > (...Lloyd not Simpson) or Vince, the hurricane chasers respectively (and > > respected) of the West and East Coasts :-) > > > > Incidentally, at your weight and need for stability, you may want to opt > > for the K-Light even at its present 13 foot length. It is a speedy > > enough boat, very agile and sporty feeling and accelerates well. > > Sometimes smaller paddlers actually can do better in a smaller boat than > > a longer boat. At least give it a try. > > Good point, Ralph. Not having paddled the K-Light, I don't know its > tracking capabilities and weathercocking liabilities. If you do find a > way to test the various F-crafts out, Wendy, try them with (& w/o) > F-craft's removable skeg, making runs on most headings to and from the > wind. > > Something I forgot to address in the last e-mail to Wendy (and list) is > the ease with which the K1 and esp. the K-Light set up due to their > simplicity, especially when compared to the Khatsalano, a boat which > wears me out just putting together (which explains it being on my car > rather than in it). > > All the best to all, > > Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Vince Dalrymple wrote: > > Not so much the stability, Ralph, as getting used to a v-bottom hard > > chine design. > > Ken Fink "tested" me in the original Khats (and expected a quick > > capsize, I think), and the trick was to not fight for a vertical rest > > position, but to just let the craft settle over on a chine 'til getting > > under way. I have found that all of the Khats that I have tried out do that, the prototype (then called the Kitsalano, which is the name of a section of Vancouver named after a chieftain, Khatsalano), the plain Khats and the Khats with the largest sponsons. I found it absolutely disconcerting in the Kits prototype and actually climbed out and got into a hardshell rather than paddle it. After 15 minutes, even the factory guy who was in the Kits decided we should turn back from the rough conditions we were beginning to enter. The Khats family likes to fall over on to a chine when you stop; in which direction depends on your skeletonal structure I guess. I bet a chiropractor could use having people sit in a Khats to determine the natural alignment of their spine :-) > > The price paid for those training wheels comes in the form of difficulty > > righting the boat if it should go over. The same force that once kept > > you upright is now working against you to keep you inverted and the flat > > Greenland style deck will not help matters any. I have yet to try > > rolling with a full camp load (sponsons fully inflated), but presume it > > might be easier than without such a load. I did experiment with keel > > ballast, though. Better kept in round hull, round deck boats. With its > > flat deck and some air in the sponsons, the Khats becomes very difficult > > to initiate the roll (up to the 90 degree mark). The only benefit > > (besides the obvious force against initial capsize) was easier roll > > finish. I have not attempted to roll a Khats but my understanding is that for marginal rollers (Vince, I am not implying that you are :-)) it is a more difficult boat to roll than would seem evident by its sleek look. My understanding also from Ken Fink is that you need to not rush the roll in a foldable; he feels foldables move slower through their rotation in a roll and you need to avoid getting out ahead of yourself. Let the boat come around and it will. Diaz to Wendy: > > > Incidentally, at your weight and need for stability, you may want to opt > > > for the K-Light even at its present 13 foot length. It is a speedy > > > enough boat, very agile and sporty feeling and accelerates well. > > > Sometimes smaller paddlers actually can do better in a smaller boat than > > > a longer boat. At least give it a try. > > > > Good point, Ralph. Not having paddled the K-Light, I don't know its > > tracking capabilities and weathercocking liabilities. If you do find a > > way to test the various F-crafts out, Wendy, try them with (& w/o) > > F-craft's removable skeg, making runs on most headings to and from the > > wind. The K-Light is a delight to paddle, a nice mix of tracking and turning. I don't find it weathercocks. > > > > Something I forgot to address in the last e-mail to Wendy (and list) is > > the ease with which the K1 and esp. the K-Light set up due to their > > simplicity, especially when compared to the Khatsalano, a boat which > > wears me out just putting together (which explains it being on my car > > rather than in it). Amen. The Khats takes a lot of assembly. Just when you think you are finished, you need to do the secondary or upper buttressing frame insertions and connections. The K-Light is fairly easy, although some individual ones take somewhat more, and the K-1 is vastly improved in assembly time since the major revisions to that model in 1998. The K-1 is usually the better choice for most paddlers than the Khats although people do like and want to be associated with the looks of the latter. I have talked several paddlers out of opting for the Khats and instead go for the K-1. They thank me every time we meet. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Flory wrote: > > plus 3~4 gallons worth of > > weight. > > 1 pt. of fresh water is a pound, gallon is 8 lbs. so 3-4 gallons is 24-32 lbs. Thanks, Dave. HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote: > Vince, I suspect that you had the boat really > heavily loaded. Can you tell us what the weight of paddler and gear > was during that trip? My weight (at the time) was 165 lb. The boat weighed in at 47 lb. The gear load minus the boat which I packed over to Japan was in the range of 40 lb. To that was added about 3~4 lb. of food, 3~4 gallons of water/beverages (24~32 lb.as stated by Dave Flory), about 2~3 lb. worth of camp stove, fuel, and camera. Don't remember the other odds & ends added there. About 250 lb. total weight for that trip. BTW, the 3 gal. water bag was strapped between the chine bars to the keel as ballast. Also, my paddle jacket and hat were shoved in opposite the bilge pump along the sides of the seat in the cockpit, I think. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vince Dalrymple wrote: > > Ken Fink "tested" me in the original Khats (and expected a quick > > capsize, I think), and the trick was to not fight for a vertical > > rest position, but to just let the craft settle over on a chine 'til > > getting under way. HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote: > I personally didn't feel the Khats S tipping hard onto one chine the > way Vince describes, though I know what he is saying -- I felt the same > thing with the Nordcapp and could never warm to the boat because of that > feel. I was referring to the original no-sponson Khats (what Ralph referred to as their prototype). My standard (small sponson) Khatsalano sits pretty flat with almost no air in the sponsons. The Khats S would only sit flatter still. This was my first time in the Khatsalano series and may have been my first time in a hard chine design. Paddling the standard Khats (sm. sponsons) immediately afterwards, it felt as though the (no sponson) prototype original Khats was slightly narrower with a more pronounced v-bottom. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wendy, _If_ you decide on the Khats and are currently comfortable paddling w/o a rudder, you might want to consider ordering the boat "clean"(rudderless). The Khats has almost no use for a rudder for a paddler of my size and weight (180 lb. _at_ 6'), and would still have little use for a rudder (as opposed to the removable skeg) for a paddler of your size and weight (going out on a limb here - i.e.., guessing). The up sides to the rudder are: you don't need a partner to deploy it, and you don't need an extra "rip chord" strung down the rear deck to pull it off yourself for surf or shallows landings. The down sides to rudder are: an extra $150 (someone correct me if I'm high), the windage when not deployed, the annoying tendency for the rudder pedal knobs to slip loose (and eventually off), always having to keep track of the rudder cables when assembling the boat (not to allow them to slip up around the gunwale bars or get caught on the stern section while assembling), the rudder (or "V"-stabilizing piece on the rear deck if rudder is removed) constantly tangling lines off the stern such as during tows, and the possibility of leakage where the rudder lines punch through the rear deck. And, as I'm sure you well know, it does add drag. My advice (for what it's worth); go with with F-craft's removable skeg. It's cheap and effective in most windy condition situations. Admittedly, I still need to work out some bugs on fore/aft skeg placement after a windy paddle a couple of weeks ago. BTW, if you have the time and inclination to travel to Maine in order to try both Khats, the K1, and the K-Light back to back in various sea states of your choosing, you might want to consider getting in contact with Ken Fink, Poseidon Kayak Imports at www.nvo.com/poseidonkayaks (800) 206-3780. He's a good friend and eminently knowledgeable and experienced paddler/racer. Even if you can't get to Maine, do contact him regarding your F-craft questions. Just my 3 or 4 cents worth, Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Correction: The 3 gal. water bag was strapped directly behind the seat between the chine bars to the keel as ballast. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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