In a message dated 3/30/00 7:44:24 PM, jaf30_at_cornell.edu writes: << >"Steven W. Jarvis" wrote: >>I finally quit raising my head, but I'm still having problems with my >paddle position. > >Then Mike wrote: >>On the paddle dive issue there are usually two causes. The first is >putting too much weight on >the paddle. The second cause is blade angle. > >Then Joe Brzoza wrote: >Here's a third cause: When setting up and sweeping you may not be keeping >the blade at the surface of the water. > > Then John Fereira wrote: Actually, that's related to number 2. If the blade is at the wrong angle at the beginning of a sweep it's not going to stay at the surface. >> Normally I try to stay out of these kinds of threads, but since Mike Is a friend, I would like to toss in my 2 cents. IMHO, Paddle dive is caused by a combination of weight on the paddle and the angle of the paddle. With no weight a flat blade will not dive. With too much weight, even the correct angled paddle will dive. With or without weight a diving angled blade will dive. In my experience students of the roll tend to pull down on the paddle rather than pull themselves up by their knees followed by the hip rotation. There are thousands of ways to screw up a roll and significantly fewer ways to do one correctly. The Screw Roll sweep should not lift the paddler but rather move him/her into position for the hip rotation. Screw Rollers will improve their roll by learning and emulating a C to C roll that forces you to get into the proper position without the added lift of the sweep. Try to sweep with the paddle out of the water and you will get the idea. The real power of the roll comes from buoyancy of the torso versus inertial as the hips pull the boat beneath the paddler. Over-reliance on a paddle is the crutch that stops most people from ever developing that bombproof Combat Roll. I still think that the Screw roll is most appropriate roll for a sea kayaker at sea, but the C to C is the roll to practice and learn from Thanks for letting me ramble. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Steven W. Jarvis" wrote: >I finally quit raising my head, but I'm still having problems with my paddle position. Then Mike Wrote: >On the paddle dive issue there are usually two causes. The first is putting too much weight on >the paddle. The second cause is blade angle. Here's a third cause: When setting up and sweeping you may not be keeping the blade at the surface of the water. I see a lot of beginners start pulling down on the blade before it gets to the "perpendicular to the boat position", so when it comes time to start the pull and hip flick the blade is already 2 feet under water. So stretch out there with that arm and keep that blade up until ready. Hope this helps. Joe *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:29 PM 3/30/00 -0500, Joe Brzoza wrote: >"Steven W. Jarvis" wrote: >>I finally quit raising my head, but I'm still having problems with my >paddle position. > >Then Mike Wrote: >>On the paddle dive issue there are usually two causes. The first is >putting too much weight on >the paddle. The second cause is blade angle. > >Here's a third cause: When setting up and sweeping you may not be keeping >the blade at the surface of the water. Actually, that's related to number 2. If the blade is at the wrong angle at the beginning of a sweep it's not going to stay at the surface. I had that problem when I was first learning how to roll. The fix was simple. As soon as I made sure that I cocked my right wrist forward (my control hand) the paddle blade would keep a climbing angle to the surface and stay near the surface when I hip snapped. Lately I've been practice going over on my right side and letting the paddle dive and then sculling it back to the surface by controlling the blade angle. Eventually, I hope to be able to fall over to the left and start a sculling motion until I come all the way around and end up in a deep sculling brace. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I want to add a bit to Mikes comments about starting with the paddle high ,and Steves comment about "finally quitting that bad habit of raising his head". Actually I think we do our students a disservice by going on and on about not raising their heads. In a C to C roll your head and torso must move together to get a good hip snap. Watch the video Grace Under Pressure where they talk about abandoning your tuck to initiate the roll. Your head leads your torso. If you want to effectively bend your body and paddle up to the surface you should raise your head up along with it (start of the roll). I try to starty with my hands and paddle all the way on the surface and just the tip of my forehead just peeking above the water. As you complete the roll and finish your hipsnap you are bending your whole upper body from the waist up downward while hanging from the paddle. You not only "don't lift" your head, but it should be deeper in water than you hands and shoulders. A good downward C ends with your body exiting the water back-shoulders-hands-head. Don't for get the other C! You want the head shoulders and all the rest cranked upward at the start of the roll. Just make sure you don't lift your head clean out of the water at the start since the weight will make you loose a little ground in your battle to start with the paddle on the surface. Joe Brzoza wrote: > "Steven W. Jarvis" wrote: > >I finally quit raising my head, but I'm still having problems with my > paddle position. > > Then Mike Wrote: > >On the paddle dive issue there are usually two causes. The first is > putting too much weight on >the paddle. The second cause is blade angle. > > Here's a third cause: When setting up and sweeping you may not be keeping > the blade at the surface of the water. I see a lot of beginners start > pulling down on the blade before it gets to the "perpendicular to the boat > position", so when it comes time to start the pull and hip flick the blade > is already 2 feet under water. So stretch out there with that arm and keep > that blade up until ready. > > Hope this helps. > > Joe > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This may have been mentioned and I missed it but there is also another cause of paddle dive that I see often. And that is lifting up with the trailing hand. When the trailing hand pushes up the leading blade dives. I (with the help of some great instructors) taught the third and final pool sessinon of an advanced class last night. 7 out of 7 students were rolling reliably by the end of the night. It was great! Lots of happy students and instructors. It was all summed up for me this morning when I recieved a single word email from a student "WAHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!". Cheers, -- Rob Cookson 3 Hats Design INTERNET PRINT ILLUSTRATION 5201 15 Ave NW Suite 220 Seattle, WA 98107 206.851.8202 direct line 206.784.1641 main office phone 206.784.2231 main office fax mailto:rob_at_3hats.com http://www.3hats.com > ********* *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am planning to build a skin on frame greenland styled boat in the near future. I am a reasonably accomplished woodworker, so I have no trepidation there. However, I am a little concerned with my sewing ability. Are there any tips or tricks that anyone knows for the skinning operation? Also, for those of you who paddle one regularly, how is the skin maintained and repaired? Direction to any sources would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Daniel -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "When all is said and done, more is said than done." Daniel Key dtheman_at_u.washington.edu (206) 527-2915 http://students.washington.edu/dtheman -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Have you looked at George Putz's book? "D. Key" wrote: > I am planning to build a skin on frame greenland styled boat in the > near future. I am a reasonably accomplished woodworker, so I have no > trepidation there. However, I am a little concerned with my sewing > ability. Are there any tips or tricks that anyone knows for the skinning > operation? Also, for those of you who paddle one regularly, how is the > skin maintained and repaired? Direction to any sources would be greatly > appreciated. > Thanks, > Daniel > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > "When all is said and done, more is said than done." > Daniel Key > dtheman_at_u.washington.edu > (206) 527-2915 > http://students.washington.edu/dtheman > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 tfj_at_interaccess.com wrote: > Have you looked at George Putz's book? I didn't care for George Putz's book. I wouldn't trust his construction methods in rough water. My usual order of suggestion for books about skin on frame is #1 Wolfgang Brinck's "Building the Aleutian Kayak" - It makes a good instruction manual. Including a couple of ways to sew it up. #2 George Dyson's "Baidarka" - for inspiration, lots of picture, and history, but not a good building manual. Following those with the Little Kayak Books, David Zimmerly's Qajaq (out of print and hard to find), and Skip Snaith's Umiak. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I am planning to build a skin on frame greenland styled boat in the >near future. I am a reasonably accomplished woodworker, so I have no >trepidation there. However, I am a little concerned with my sewing >ability. Are there any tips or tricks that anyone knows for the skinning >operation? Also, for those of you who paddle one regularly, how is the >skin maintained and repaired? Direction to any sources would be greatly >appreciated. >Thanks, >Daniel > Try http://robroy.totalsports.net/baidarka/ for a ton of information on skin kayaks/ building techniques Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I totally agree with the motion of the lower body in the roll. I like to teach a good low brace (J-lean or boat tilt followed by a good snap (head dink, or knee-bone-to-the-chin-bone, or drop the head and the knee magically comes up)), followed by a high brace and sweep, and then show how the roll is composed of these elements. (only from upside down). I always have the student tap three times the paddleblade on the surface so they know it is up there. However, I was surprised my my instructor trainer in my whitewater course serveral years ago who encouraged me to plane my blade under the water....and it worked. So...has anyone else played with this? Since I learned the sweep-roll first, this is my default, and I find it the easiest to do in my sea kayak. Andree Hurley Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/ KIX - http://www.onwatersports.com/KIX *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"plane my blade under the water....and it worked. So...has anyone else played with this?" A little. I tried in one session not long ago to follow the storm roll ideas from Derek Hutchinson's Complete Sea Kayaking. On my good side, I could hold the paddle at 20 - 30 degrees out from the bow, pull it down, then planing out and around underwater, rising, until far enough around to get leverage to roll up. I can't think of any real reason why the blade has to plane on the surface in a roll. The surface is just the highest level on which the blade can sweep. If conditions on the surface are turbulent, as in storm, wind, why not have the blade plane lower, out of all that? I don't know the answer to these questions, maybe more accomplished rollers can comment. Regards, Peter T. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Andree asks: > However, I was surprised my my instructor trainer in my whitewater course > serveral years ago who encouraged me to plane my blade under the > water....and it worked. > > So...has anyone else played with this? > Yes, the paddle blade is best moved out <sweep> in a diving angle. This dumps any resistance for the blade to move OUT to the side and provides a very stable surface once out there. If you video tape GREAT roll models you will see the blade angle is actually diving or neutral. Steve <done with Coastal IDW last weekend, WW ICE this weekend> =:-o) Scherrer Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr Portland, OR 97217 Phone: 503.285.0464 Fax: 503.285.0106 Web site: http://www.aldercreek.com Email: acks_at_teleport.com ______________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andree Hurley" <ahurley_at_viewit.com> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Pool Session Report (longish) > I totally agree with the motion of the lower body in the roll. I like to > teach a good low brace (J-lean or boat tilt followed by a good snap (head > dink, or knee-bone-to-the-chin-bone, or drop the head and the knee > magically comes up)), followed by a high brace and sweep, and then show > how the roll is composed of these elements. (only from upside down). > > I always have the student tap three times the paddleblade on the surface > so they know it is up there. > > However, I was surprised my my instructor trainer in my whitewater course > serveral years ago who encouraged me to plane my blade under the > water....and it worked. > > So...has anyone else played with this? > > Since I learned the sweep-roll first, this is my default, and I find it > the easiest to do in my sea kayak. > > > Andree Hurley > Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/ > KIX - http://www.onwatersports.com/KIX > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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