It's 3 a.m. and I give up on my sleeplessness caused by the incidents on 3/3. Here's what happened: It was a very windy day here, the perfect weather to do some test paddling for a potentially new camping kayak. I had been waiting patiently for some strong wind because all boats paddle good in nice weather, its only when the weather goes south that they start to stand apart. I took along jugs of water to simulate gear load, picked up a couple of boats at our local kayak store and drove the short distance to a large (salt water) river. As I am unloading the car of boats and gear in the parking lot, from behind me I hear a very soft, quivering voice say, "Can you help me?" I turn to see a young man, quite pale, dripping wet from head to toe, his clothes sagging with the weight of water trapped in cotton. I asked "Are you o.k.?" He said, "I took my new kayak out and it flipped over. Can you help me get it?" I asked him if he had any clothes to change into; he hesitated and then said "No, let's go get my boat." I made the assumption that the boat was on or near shore, and he had dumped while attempting to get out of the boat. When we got to the shoreline I see the boat floating upside down, keel just at the waterline (not above the waterline), way out in the river. The 15-20 mph winds were from the west, blowing it straight downriver toward the bay. So TheWetOne & I rush back to my car, I hurridly grab what I need, toss it in a boat and we carry down to the water. In the span of 1-1/2 minutes we were getting my boat, his boat has been blown another 150 ft downriver, but has now taken a turn for shore. Seeing this, I am quite relieved and decide it will be easier for me to wade/swim out and pull it in. As we get down to that area and I wade out, the water turns out to be quite shallow, never going over my thighs (water temp 44F). The first thing I do is clip on a bow line. Then I try to roll the boat over by grabbing the edges of the cockpit (I tried both from the upwind side and the downwind side-both to no avail). Failing that, I wrap the bow line around my body and try pulling it toward shore but cannot budge it. This struggle goes on for 3 or 4 minutes as I make little progress. Again I try rolling it over, this time trying to position my knees lower to give me more of a lift. Failure again. I look toward shore and the only person is TheWetOne, now shivering uncontrollably. I yelled that I couldn't get it any further in unless I had help flipping it over. He came jogging out yelping as each foot touched the water. We both grab the cockpit and are barely able to get it up. We keep going with this until the waters starts to flow out of the cockpit. At this point I tell TheWetOne to go get changed since I can manage it. Over the next 10 minutes I continue emptying the boat and pulling it toward shore. Very slow going. The boat is an Oldtown Loon, probably 14 ft. No bulkheads. No visible floatation. Nothing on deck other than a fishing pole under the bungees. Once his boat is up on the beach, I go back to the parking lot to find that his car is gone. I now make the assumption that he had no spare clothes in his car and had to go home to change. I am so angry, I am dizzy. Waiting for TheWetOne to return, I continue preparing for my test paddles. After loading the first boat, I get in to adjust the footpegs. There are none. What? I get out and look in the cockpit. Right. No footpegs. Great. Now I am really pissed. This was a designated "demo" boat and it has no footpegs. TheWetOne returns and asks if there is anything he give me or do for me. I said, "Yes. Join a club. You will learn a lot and be safer." I gave him our group brochure and told him that if he contacted the store, they could give him additional clubs info. As I help him load his stuff back in the car, I ask him some questions. Here are the answers. He had purchased his boat the week before and was never told anything about the hazards of cold water. He had no previous water sports experience. He was told that his boat had "built-in" flotation and all he needed was a PFD. He did not know anything about sprayskirts, pumps or paddlefloats. Since it was a sunny day, he thought it would be perfect to go out and try fishing from his new, stable kayak. He did not realize that wind would have any effect on the craft. As he had gotten off-shore, he had quickly gotten into trouble, loosing control as the waves kept washing into the cockpit until it finally flipped him over. Fortunately, he had been wearing his PFD and was able to make it back to shore. After he leaves, I decide to go through with the test paddle even though it will be impossible for me to accurately access the boat in these conditions with no foot pegs. But it will let me blow out an awful lot of steam. After zig-zagging the waterway to simulate beam seas, following seas, etc., I head back to the put-in to try the other boat. Shifting the gear load to the new boat, I am dismayed to realize the it is missing the neoprene rear hatch cover (the lid was there but fit loosly). With anger returning, I head off shore and have a fun time in this boat zig-zagging around to see how it manages. At times I have trouble holding onto the paddle with gusts at 35-40 mph. With following seas, I am able to hold the boat totally on its side without my blade in the water. Now I'm feeling much better. I finish and load the car but dread going back to the store to let the store owner know what has taken place. Arriving back at the store, the "yard" guys are waiting to take the boats off the car and lock them up for the night and can go home. I let them know the problems with the demo boats and they apologize for not having checked the boats first. The owner is just leaving when I catch him. We sit down and I relay my afternoon's experience with him (omitting the problems with his demo boats). He is shocked, taken aback but at times becomes (in my opinion) a little defensive of their store practices and of the manufacturers. I suggest that because of shere sales volume and busyness (sp) of the store, perhaps it was difficult to depend on someone covering the basic safety info with new boat owners. Perhaps I could write something up as a 1 page flyer that could be handed to the customers with every boat purchase. I'm told that the manufacturer tapes safety info in every boat, besides, I am reminded, the store sells videos and books that cover all aspects of kayaking. I am told that new boat owners aren't interested in hearing safety tips; they are too focused on their new stuff and can't/won't listen to you. The owner states that he will communicate the event to the store staff in their next meeting. I never hear what will change in their selling process, but don't feel comfortable in pushing the issue. For the next 2 days I struggle with this. At the Paddlesport show at the end of March, probably 2,000-5,000 boats will be sold over a 3 day period, probably 65-70% of them being "recreational" kayaks. In discussing thoughts I've had to take proactive steps to reduce the number of incidents, everyone I talk to tells me to forget it. The manufacturers don't want it, the resellers don't want it, the consumer doesn't want it. I wonder, should our club continue to participate in the show - with such enormous amounts of obvious negligence? Right now my answer is a tentative yes; perhaps attendees visiting our table will hear some safety info, perhaps they will decide to join the group and read the informative articles in the newsletter, perhaps they will have the opportunity to attend a group trip and receive paddling tips. Perhaps. Discouraged in Sandy Hook, NJ Debbie Reeves *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Reeves, Debbie (Debbie)" wrote: > > It's 3 a.m. and I give up on my sleeplessness caused by the incidents on > 3/3. Here's what happened: [big snip] > The owner is just leaving when I catch him. We sit down and I relay my > afternoon's experience with him (omitting the problems with his demo boats). > He is shocked, taken aback but at times becomes (in my opinion) a little > defensive of their store practices and of the manufacturers. [snip] I am > told that new boat owners aren't interested in hearing safety tips; they are > too focused on their new stuff and can't/won't listen to you. The owner > states that he will communicate the event to the store staff in their next > meeting. I never hear what will change in their selling process, but don't > feel comfortable in pushing the issue. > > For the next 2 days I struggle with this. At the Paddlesport show at the > end of March, probably 2,000-5,000 boats will be sold over a 3 day period, > probably 65-70% of them being "recreational" kayaks. In discussing thoughts > I've had to take proactive steps to reduce the number of incidents, everyone > I talk to tells me to forget it. The manufacturers don't want it, the > resellers don't want it, the consumer doesn't want it. I wonder, should our > club continue to participate in the show - [snip] You did the best you could with the situation. Yes, the club should continue to be an advocate for safe use of yaks. Yes, the retailer has a "compromised" attitude toward safe boating. We live in an imperfect world, but, think of it this way: if the activities of your club save the life on one person, it will have been worth it. You may not know who that person was, but he/she will, and will be forever grateful to you. BTW, if the hypothermic young man had returned to the store in his shivering state, for all the staff to see, and related his story, I bet it would have commanded some attention! Good work, Debbie! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Debs, It sounded like a very distressing and disheartening experience to run across such gross negligence on the part of the dealer. The most disheartening to me is that it wasn't a K-Mart-type general merchaniser but rather a kayak shop. I think we will have to put our heads together to figure out the most effective way to deal with this with this particular dealer. But I don't want to rush into anything without thinking about it. Meanwhile I think that we should redouble our efforts at shows such as Paddlesport to get the safety word out. I don't remember what the tabloid newspaper that comes out with the show has in the way of articles but it would be worthwhile to get them next year to include a version of any of the good pieces I see in your Atlantic Sea Kayakers newsletter regarding cold water. And to ask them to make it a boiler plate feature each year. It would take much space. There is always the danger that someone would buy a boat at Paddlesport (or at any earlier winter show like Canoecopia in Madison WI or the Small Boat Shop in Norwalk CT both on the same week or the one or two up in New England also in March) and in their euphoria make a similar mistake. We can't force people to listen but that doesn't mean we should keep trying. Anyway I want to think on this one some more. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello all, ralph diaz wrote: > Debs, > > It sounded like a very distressing and disheartening experience to run > across such gross negligence on the part of the dealer. The most > disheartening to me is that it wasn't a K-Mart-type general merchaniser > but rather a kayak shop. I think we will have to put our heads together > to figure out the most effective way to deal with this with this > particular dealer. But I don't want to rush into anything without > thinking about it. Now hold on a minute, did I read this right? Are you accusing the dealer of gross negligence based on the statements we have seen here? Has anyone spoken with the salesperson that sold the craft? Based on this you are trying to figure out a way to "deal with" this particular dealer? Sounds like a quick and speedy trial by email to me. Unless you have far more information than you are sharing here I think you are being quite unfair. I worked in the kayak industry for over a decade with 8 years in retail. I don't think I ever spoke with anyone in the store that I didn't recommend lessons to whether or not he or she was buying a boat. Most retailers are interested in safety because ultimately it is good for business. We really have no idea what was said during the sale process in this instance. I have had customers flat out ignore every piece of advise I have tried to give them, some of them refuse to buy skirts no matter how many times they are told that they are an important piece of safety equipment. The list goes on and on. However I'm getting away from my point. My question would be whatever happened to personal responsibility? The comments I have seen here seem quick to judge the dealer and almost portray the swimmer as some kind of innocent victim. It is the paddler that decided to launch that particular craft on that particular day in those conditions. I doubt that the dealer was there pushing him off. We are all responsible for our own safety. I'm wondering if you have purchased any other potentially dangerous equipment recently, and what kind of advise and liability you think the merchant should be responsible for. Kitchen knives are very dangerous and I have never received safety info from a dealer. To that list I would add chainsaws, firearms stepladders and oh yeah how about automobiles, far more dangerous than firearms, ladders and chainsaws combined. I am all for safe kayaking. In fact I like to think that in the years that I have been teaching I have helped the sport become a little safer by emphasizing safety in every class I teach; however I respect the individuals right to make their own choices about acceptable risk. Personally I wear my pfd 99 % of the time but I have no problem with people that don't wear them-I might not paddle with them- but what they do on their own is their business. This kind of blame the dealer, blame the manufacture mentality is a much greater threat to the sport (actually society as a whole) than cold water will ever be. If this attitude prevails we could soon see government regulation brought to bear on the sport. Or should we consider other scenarios. Maybe all purchases of hazardous items require a signed and notarized liability waiver. That would cover everything form hard candy to kayaks. Or maybe there should be a licensing required for each specific craft. Maybe a rolling demonstration of each boat prior to purchase, no roll no sale. Or how about this, no kayak or canoe can be sold without a drysuit ,paddle, pfd, etc, etc. I know that the intent of these posters has been good and is in the spirit of saving lives but please people, I really don't need anymore protection from myself. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of ralph diaz > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 6:52 AM > To: PaddleWise > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Nearly Fatal > > > > Meanwhile I think that we should redouble our efforts at shows such as > Paddlesport to get the safety word out. I don't remember what the > tabloid newspaper that comes out with the show has in the way of > articles but it would be worthwhile to get them next year to include a > version of any of the good pieces I see in your Atlantic Sea Kayakers > newsletter regarding cold water. And to ask them to make it a boiler > plate feature each year. It would take much space. There is always the > danger that someone would buy a boat at Paddlesport (or at any earlier > winter show like Canoecopia in Madison WI or the Small Boat Shop in > Norwalk CT both on the same week or the one or two up in New England > also in March) and in their euphoria make a similar mistake. > > We can't force people to listen but that doesn't mean we should keep > trying. > > Anyway I want to think on this one some more. > > ralph > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> You're right. I don't know what took place either. It's a "he said, > they said" situation, but I do know from personal experience, as well as > anecdotes from others, that there are a lot of people venturing out > there who are not armed with the right information, skills, or > equipment. > I think there's an unreal assement on the part of first time buyers of what the real cost of buying/equipping a boat is which leads to folks being out on the water not only ignorant (OK, lets say inexperienced) and unprepared. It's just not the price tag on the boat along with paddle, spray skirt, etc., but all the peripheral equipment that needs to enter into the equation. It's simply not budgeted into the percieved cost of the boat and can easily equal the cost of the boat itself just for basic needs i.e. compass, 2nd paddle, paddlefloat, bailer, flares, chart guides, dry/flotation bags, clothing, and on and on. Personally, I would never even consider going out without a second paddle in case the primary breaks or is lost, even if I'm 100 yards from shore a strong tide or current could be more than my "dog paddle" could handle. But how many kayak shops advise, or newbies consider, that a boat without proper equipment is just a floating coffin? -Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I look toward shore and the only person is > TheWetOne, now shivering uncontrollably. I yelled that I couldn't get it > any further in unless I had help flipping it over. He came jogging out > yelping as each foot touched the water Excuse me, is it common practice to ask someone who is *shivering uncontrollably* to go back into cold water to retrieve a kayak? bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There really is that unreal expectation of what the "whole package" will cost. I'm sure a lot of beginning paddlers-on-a-budget save enough for a paddle and a boat and plan to buy "the other stuff" (sometimes not knowing or never knowing the full extent of how much equipment is truly necessary) as they accumulate the needed funds. This is a great sport for gear heads, but not everybody is a gear head. One reason I feel so passionate about this subject is that nobody told me what to expect when I started kayaking. I wish someone had, so I now hope I can help beginning paddlers to be safe, old kayakers. Shawn Nick Von Robison wrote: > I think there's an unreal assement on the part of first time buyers of what the > real cost of buying/equipping a boat is which leads to folks being out on the water > not only ignorant (OK, lets say inexperienced) and unprepared. It's just not the > price tag on the boat along with paddle, spray skirt, etc., but all the peripheral > equipment that needs to enter into the equation. It's simply not budgeted into the > percieved cost of the boat and can easily equal the cost of the boat itself just > for basic needs i.e. compass, 2nd paddle, paddlefloat, bailer, flares, chart > guides, dry/flotation bags, clothing, and on and on. Personally, I would never > even consider going out without a second paddle in case the primary breaks or is > lost, even if I'm 100 yards from shore a strong tide or current could be more than > my "dog paddle" could handle. But how many kayak shops advise, or newbies > consider, that a boat without proper equipment is just a floating coffin? > > -Nick -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Cookson wrote: > I think you are missing my point. My point is that this was a hasty > statement made with no firsthand knowledge and with information coming only > from one side. We do not know what was said between the dealer and the > client and yet immediately the reaction is that the dealer is accused of > gross negligence and it is suggested that they should be dealt with in some > way. I'm saying that it seems like pretty strong words given how little is > really known about the situation. You're right. We don't know what was actually said between TheWetOne and TheStore. I am probably wrong in using a term like Gross Negligence. That's a legal term, and I don't want to suggest that TheStore has a legal responsibility to promote safety; I do feel strongly that TheStore has a moral responsibility (as do we all, as paddlers) to promote safety. I didn't mean to suggest that the dealer should be dealt with--I am trying to say that the store (and all stores) should be advocates for and sources of safety and information. > How do you know that the dealer didn't try? We have not heard from the > salesperson at all. Again you are leaping to conclusions without any real > evidence. I have seen this time and time again with rec boats where a > salesperson says that the new paddler needs a pump and a paddlefloat etc etc > and the customer says no thanks I'm just fishing near shore. What do you > propose? Would you make all safety gear mandatory? Should all kayaks be > required by law to ship with sp****n's? How about a vhf and a cell phone? > Those are clearly valuable rescue tools should all dealers be required to > sell those too? That's such a sticky situation. I'm opposed to legislation, but I strongly believe that everyone should have sufficient safety gear. I have to admit that I don't have the right answers. > > Ralph Diaz also wrote: > > > I think we will have to put our heads together > > > to figure out the most effective way to deal with this with this > > > particular dealer. But I don't want to rush into anything without > > > thinking about it. > > > > Sounds like a pretty sane statement, doesn't sound like a "trial by > > email" to me. > > It may sound sane to you but it sounds horribly one sided to me. Sounds > like the dealer has been convicted and the judge is now deliberating > sentencing. Even if the dealer is simply told,"Hey, this guy could have died. The situation could have been prevented if he'd had positive flotation, a paddlefloat, and a pump. Oh yeah, and a sprayskirt." Then, the dealer tells the next potential buyer who has greenbacks burning a hole in their pocket for a bright, shiny kayak, "One guy almost died because he didn't have positive flotation, a paddlefloat, and a pump. Oh yeah, and a sprayskirt." Which is another sticky situation. The dealer doesn't want to lose the sale (she's gotta put food on the table and pay her rent and mortgage) but she also doesn't want to see someone get hurt. > The dealer is not necessarily the first entity seen by the new paddler. How > many times have I heard that so and so took me paddling and he says I don't > need one of them there ______. People are introduced to this sport in many > different ways and many have some pretty strong notions by the time they get > to the dealer. So we should shoot the foolish people before they have the opportunity to pass on bad information! </tongue in cheek> > I agree that dealers can be very helpful in terms of education. I believe > that both the companies that I have worked for were extremely helpful in > terms of educating new paddlers. As I have said I am all for education, in > fact I love teaching this sport, and I stress safety. But and this is a big > but. The dealer is in no way responsible for the safety of those that buy > product from them. It is completely up to the individual buying equipment > to learn how to use it safely and properly. My whole beef this issue is > that the terms gross negligence were brought out hastily and with only half > a story that is at best third hand. I think dealers, manufacturers, and fellow paddlers all have a responsibility for the safety of new paddlers. Again, not a _legal_ responsibility. Sorry, gross negligence wasn't the right term. To use another sports analogy, SCUBA tanks are not filled unless a valid cert card is presented. Granted, it's through regulation, but if some sort of informal self-regulation is not undertaken by the industry, then formal regulation will come. > Why then do we expect kayak retailers to impart all of the hazards of > kayaking? We don't have this expectation of other retailers. SCUBA diving is probably more dangerous than kayaking; backpacking probably a bit less dangerous. We're between a regulated sport and a completely unregulated one; which extreme do we as a sport fall closer to, and if registration is to be avoided, what should then be done? > I agree knowledge=power but it is the responsibility of each individual > to seek that knowledge. So what is an Internet-impaired newbie kayaker to do for guidance if the store can't provide information? I don't see any potential widely-available sources of safety knowledge for those who don't have online access. I have learned everything I know (safety-related) indirectly or directly through the internet. Without it, I wouldn't have known about the existence of books like "Deep Trouble", or been exposed to groups like PaddleWise. As far as I'm concerned, a dealer is the only possible source, aside from State- or Federally-mandated regulation. > As I'm sure you can tell the issue of personal responsibility is one that I > feel very strongly about. I think that we should all keep in mind that when > you point a finger there are four pointing right back at you. I'm fully aware of that. As a newbie, I was guilty of breaking a lot of safety practices (all 4 big fingers pointing right back at Shawn). I was lucky and didn't get caught. I hate to see it happen to others. All the best, Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn W. Baker wrote: > Even if the dealer is simply told,"Hey, this guy could have died. The > situation could have been prevented if he'd had positive flotation, a > paddlefloat, and a pump. Oh yeah, and a sprayskirt." Then, the dealer > tells the next potential buyer who has greenbacks burning a hole in > their pocket for a bright, shiny kayak, "One guy almost died because he > didn't have positive flotation, a paddlefloat, and a pump. Oh yeah, and > a sprayskirt." I know of one dealer around here who once was selling a bulkheadless polyethlene kayak to a fellow and tried to get him to also buy flotation bags. The guy would have none of it; felt he was spending too much already with the PFD, paddle and sprayskirt. The dealer finally just said "Here, take them," giving the guy the float bags free. The dealer's wholesale cost was probably at most $15 for the set; and he bought himself a lot of peace of mind and a measure of lawsuit-protection were the guy to have done something stupid while using the boat. >From time to time, I hear of dealers who won't let you take the boat out of the store unless you also buy such basics including a paddle float. I think that is laudable and a step in the right direction. But having a paddle float and actually having experience in using one depends on the paddler. Same with the flotation bags; if the paddler doesn't use them, they won't work. There is where the responsibility falls on the paddler and all anyone, including the dealer, can do is to point the person toward instruction and informal learning from more experienced paddlers while on the water. BTW, to any one who thinks I am advocating that the industry remove all risk and that the individual paddler be absolved of all responsibility, I assure you that I am not; if anything I say gives you that impression, it is not my intention and please purge it from your mind. And to anyone who says I am advocating legislation, regulation and penalties or licensing of paddlers or any of that, please do the same, i.e. purge it from your mind because I am not calling for regs. >From some of the response postings I am seeing, I think I may have to put a version of the previous paragraph into my SIG as a disclaimer. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Shawn and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: Shawn W. Baker [mailto:baker_at_montana.com] > Rob Cookson wrote: > > I think you are missing my point. > > You're right. We don't know what was actually said between TheWetOne > and TheStore. I am probably wrong in using a term like Gross > Negligence. That's a legal term, and I don't want to suggest that > TheStore has a legal responsibility to promote safety; I do feel > strongly that TheStore has a moral responsibility (as do we all, as > paddlers) to promote safety. I didn't mean to suggest that the dealer > should be dealt with--I am trying to say that the store (and all stores) > should be advocates for and sources of safety and information. <Liberal snippage throughout post> There you go! now you are not missing my point at all! ;>) Actually I think it was Ralph who used the term gross negligence and suggested that some action may be needed. I think that we are pretty much in agreement here. > > > How do you know that the dealer didn't try? We have not heard from the > > salesperson at all. Again you are leaping to conclusions > without any real > > evidence. I have seen this time and time again with rec boats where a > > salesperson says that the new paddler needs a pump and a > paddlefloat etc etc > > and the customer says no thanks I'm just fishing near shore. > What do you > > propose? Would you make all safety gear mandatory? Should all > kayaks be > > required by law to ship with sp****n's? How about a vhf and a > cell phone? > > Those are clearly valuable rescue tools should all dealers be > required to > > sell those too? > > That's such a sticky situation. I'm opposed to legislation, but I > strongly believe that everyone should have sufficient safety gear. I > have to admit that I don't have the right answers. In my mind the answer is easy. Personal choice. Let people choose the amount of gear that it takes to make them feel comfortable. Life is about acceptable risk and loss. It is not up to me to decide what conditions or equipment you should paddle in or with. > Then, the dealer > tells the next potential buyer who has greenbacks burning a hole in > their pocket for a bright, shiny kayak, "One guy almost died because he > didn't have positive flotation, a paddlefloat, and a pump. Oh yeah, and > a sprayskirt." This is a terrible sales tactic. I always used to tell people how important these pieces of gear are and that in my mind no boater should be without them. But when you start mentioning to people that you know someone who almost died because of the absence of this or that it starts to sound like strong-arming or snake oil. Besides just to be controversial I'll argue that the problem with this particular scenario was not related to equipment but rather it was a big error in judgment. What this guy was missing was not gear or warnings from dealers it was common sense. > > Which is another sticky situation. The dealer doesn't want to lose the > sale (she's gotta put food on the table and pay her rent and mortgage) > but she also doesn't want to see someone get hurt. That's right. If one dealer won't sell the gear the next one will. Maybe if I have time in the next week or so I'll tell you the tale of the not so famous Dying Corsican Brothers. > So we should shoot the foolish people before they have the opportunity > to pass on bad information! </tongue in cheek> I'm not gonna touch that one. ;o) > > I think dealers, manufacturers, and fellow paddlers all have a > responsibility for the safety of new paddlers. I think all of the above can play a great roll in education but I think you are still missing one key link. The new paddler himself. I think most people are smart enough to understand that water can be dangerous. I think most people are also smart enough to realize that people sometimes drown in boating accidents. I think that a reasonable person will then seek information on safety. I think an unreasonable person may fall in a river and maybe have the good fortune of being assisted by someone with better skills and judgment. An unreasonable person will then claim that someone should have told them that taking a kayak out in strong winds in new england the first week in march is a bad idea. <lots more snippage> > So what is an Internet-impaired newbie kayaker to do for guidance if the > store can't provide information? There is a ton of information available. I have yet to be in an outfitters store where books and videos were not sold. Most retailers are also offering instruction as well. Heck canoe and kayak Mag as well as Sea Kayaker are on many news stands. The country is full of clubs. If the new paddler takes some initiative they will find plenty of resources. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Cookson wrote: > There you go! now you are not missing my point at all! ;>) Actually I think > it was Ralph who used the term gross negligence and suggested that some > action may be needed. I think that we are pretty much in agreement here. Rob, The term "gross negligence" does not exist in my vocubulary. And I did not use it in my posts on this subject. And regarding your comment that I said that action may be needed, what I wrote was "I think we will have to put our heads together to figure out the most effective way to deal with this with this particular dealer. But I don't want to rush into anything without thinking about it." I know Debbie since we are in the same general paddling area. My statement clearly says that I want that she and I to put our heads together and to take our time about it to do what is most effective not what may make us feel good or important. I am looking for whatever will really work. Perhaps you may have some good suggestions. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Ralph and all, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of ralph diaz > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 11:31 AM > Rob, > The term "gross negligence" does not exist in my vocubulary. And I did > not use it in my posts on this subject. > Ralph I have to disagree with you here. You did indeed use that term so it must be in your vocabulary. I have pasted in your entire post below so that you can see that it is not taken out of context. Begin Ralph's original message: <<Debs, It sounded like a very distressing and disheartening experience to run across such gross negligence on the part of the dealer. The most disheartening to me is that it wasn't a K-Mart-type general merchaniser but rather a kayak shop. I think we will have to put our heads together to figure out the most effective way to deal with this with this particular dealer. But I don't want to rush into anything without thinking about it. Meanwhile I think that we should redouble our efforts at shows such as Paddlesport to get the safety word out. I don't remember what the tabloid newspaper that comes out with the show has in the way of articles but it would be worthwhile to get them next year to include a version of any of the good pieces I see in your Atlantic Sea Kayakers newsletter regarding cold water. And to ask them to make it a boiler plate feature each year. It would take much space. There is always the danger that someone would buy a boat at Paddlesport (or at any earlier winter show like Canoecopia in Madison WI or the Small Boat Shop in Norwalk CT both on the same week or the one or two up in New England also in March) and in their euphoria make a similar mistake. We can't force people to listen but that doesn't mean we should keep trying. Anyway I want to think on this one some more. ralph>> End ralph's original message. As I have said before I think that your heart is in the right place but you jumped to conclusions with very sketchy information. Nowhere in your post do you mention poor judgment on the part of the paddler. I'm not suggesting that you are about to do anything rash with the dealer. I am stating that I find it sad and interesting that the whole focus of this incident has been on alleged misconduct of the dealer with no proof. So my point is that people are very quick to jump to conclusions without many facts and that personal responsibility is the most important factor. > And regarding your comment that I said that action may be needed, what I > wrote was "I think we will have to put our heads together to figure out > the most effective way to deal with this with this particular dealer. > But I don't want to rush into anything without thinking about it." I > know Debbie since we are in the same general paddling area. My > statement clearly says that I want that she and I to put our heads > together and to take our time about it to do what is most effective not > what may make us feel good or important. I am looking for whatever will > really work. Perhaps you may have some good suggestions. > > ralph If you were to substitute the word paddler for dealer in the above paragraph I would be in complete agreement. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Cookson wrote: > > Ralph I have to disagree with you here. You did indeed use that term so it > must be in your vocabulary. I have pasted in your entire post below so that > you can see that it is not taken out of context. You are clearly right that I used it. Looking back at it, I am surprised at myself that I used the term. Gross negligence certainly was too strong a term even though Debbie had just gotten two "deficient" boats to try out from the dealer (one minus foot pegs, the other the neoprene cover for one hatch) and even though the WetOne stated that he hadn't been told anything. I simply had forgotten using it because I was focusing on the rest of my statement where you can see that there was no intent to act without furthering thinking and discussions about it. Rather I was looking for ways to deal with the situation constructively and positively. The issue is what can be done about the incident that Debbie experienced firsthand. Again, I ask you what positive suggestions can you offer. Debbie indicated that the dealer was shocked while also being possibly defensive. Since he was shocked, in there may be an answer. He did mention to Debbie wanting to review procedures with his sales staff, etc. And Debbie offered to do a 1-page flyer for them. Probably some follow up in a positive fashion might help. Rob, again if you have any first hand experience in handling such a situation, please let us know. The postings from Nick and Phil, both with retailing knowledge, underscore the pressures on the dealers and the personality patterns of some customers. So it ain't easy. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Ralph and All, > You are clearly right that I used it. Looking back at it, I am > surprised at myself that I used the term. Gross negligence certainly > was too strong a term even though Debbie had just gotten two "deficient" > boats to try out from the dealer (one minus foot pegs, the other the > neoprene cover for one hatch) and even though the WetOne stated that he > hadn't been told anything. Exactly. That was my point. The word choice was far too strong given what we knew of the situation. Regarding the boats that Debbie rented. I do think that was an unfortunate error on the part of the dealer and I too would be ticked off. My question is this, did Debbie then paddle the boats after noticing that important safety equipment was missing? If so then she obviously knowingly chose to accept the risk of paddling compromised boats. That decision also means that she was prepared to accept the perhaps fatal consequences of a flooded compartment or perhaps a missed roll due to a lack of foot braces. She certainly had the choice of returning them to the dealer and getting her money back as well as giving them a piece of her mind. If those boats had been returned to me I would have been very apologetic and refunded any rental fees and sent her back out with the proper equipment at no charge. I do think that the dealer should be more careful about the equipment they rent but ultimately it is the customer that must decide if the equipment rented is fit for the purpose at hand. > The issue is what can be done about the incident that Debbie experienced > firsthand. Again, I ask you what positive suggestions can you offer. Well, the most positive advice I could offer is that each individual has to accept more responsibility for his or her actions and take it upon themselves to make sure they understand what they are getting into. I can't believe that any adult living in New England wasn't aware that there is risk involved in going out in small boats. Clearly he knew the water was cold, there was no one frolicking on the beach in their swimsuits. I just wish people would exercise better judgment. By shifting the blame to others we only encourage the problem. It's not Disneyland out there. If you want to reduce the number of fatal accidents I would take a broader approach and work with the USCG or other agencies that deal with boating safety. Drowning isn't kayak specific. > > Debbie indicated that the dealer was shocked while also being possibly > defensive. Since he was shocked, in there may be an answer. He did > mention to Debbie wanting to review procedures with his sales staff, > etc. And Debbie offered to do a 1-page flyer for them. Probably some > follow up in a positive fashion might help. I'm not surprised that the dealer was shocked and defensive. I hope that with regards to the boats missing equipment he was shocked and apologetic. > > Rob, again if you have any first hand experience in handling such a > situation, please let us know. The postings from Nick and > Phil, both with retailing knowledge, underscore the pressures on the > dealers and the personality patterns of some customers. So it ain't > easy. I believe I addressed some of this in other posts. It was probably drowned out by my constant rumblings about personal responsibility. Customer attitudes as you know vary widely. Some folks are like a sponge and absorb every tidbit of info that you hand them. Others you might as well be talking to a stump. There is only so much that a dealer can do. Someone pointed out earlier that their club offered a free newsletter to anyone purchasing a boat at a particular dealer and no one took them up on the offer. I'm not saying that this particular dealer did all he could do. I'm saying I don't know what the dealer did or didn't do. And them I'm going a step further and saying that regardless of what the dealer did or didn't do the WetOne used damned poor judgement by launching in a river in strong winds in March when both the air and water are cold and all of that topped with no experience. In my mind this issue is not about gear or dealer warnings. It is about using good common sense. When half of your brain is begging to get a new boat and go fishing and the other half is telling you that it is cold and windy you must make a choice. WetOne made a bad choice and fortunately lived to tell about it. There was a guy that had a theory about this, I think his name was Darwin. I think the greatest thing we can do to enhance safety in all aspects of life whether that is in dealing with autos, crime or kayaks is to take responsibility for ourselves and our actions and to spread this word far and wide. Really, it's a great feeling to know that you have that much power in your own life. I have a few bad judgement stories and maybe tonight I will have time to post them. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:45 PM -0700 3/8/00, Shawn W. Baker wrote: >That's such a sticky situation. I'm opposed to legislation, but I >strongly believe that everyone should have sufficient safety gear. I >have to admit that I don't have the right answers. > What is "sufficient" safety gear. If a person dies, obviously the gear was not "sufficient". "Best practices" may indicate that when going out in certain conditions, certain gear is a good idea. But is the gear that is a good idea for an ocean crossing really reasonable for a little fishing in a local lake. If a customer says, "I want to paddle on the open ocean." a retailer should probably recommend more gear than if the customer says "I want to look at birds in a marsh". It would be irresponsible of the retailer to try to sell paddlefloats, flares, GPS and pumps to someone who says they are going to do relatively "safe" paddling. A responsible retailer should probably ask what the customer plans to do with a boat and attempt to sell the appropriate gear. I don't think it would be irresponsible of the retailer to take the customer at their word. If the customer wants to paddle in a small, warm lake during the summer the retailer should not be expected to talk about the risk of hypothermia in the ocean. I do think some positive flotation should be standard equipment in all kayaks: float bags for boats without bulkheads for example. I also advocate float bags for boats with bulkheads and watertight hatches, but that is another issue. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 7:45 PM -0500 3/5/00, Reeves, Debbie (Debbie) wrote: >It's 3 a.m. and I give up on my sleeplessness caused by the incidents on >3/3. Here's what happened: > Unfortunately, there is a financial disincentive for retailers to stress safety. Many people coming in looking for a boat, are probably a little bit scared about safety to begin with. They may had experience in a canoe where they felt like they were going to tip over or actually did. Others may not have even that much experience with boats. Many people are afraid of the water, they don't know what is under the surface and don't want to find out. So, the retailer has to assure these potential customers that kayaking is safe. And it generally is, so they aren't lying. But, after convincing the customer that kayaking is safe, how do you now say, "But, you really need to be careful..." without making kayaking sound dangerous and potentially losing the sale? Most retailers probably assume that people are smart enough not to go out when the weather is nasty. When it is truly nasty, that may be a safe assumption, but there are gray areas. If it 70°F and the sun is shining, most people would not consider the weather nasty. But if the water is 45°F and the wind is blowing against a strong current, the conditions could be called bad for an inexperienced paddler. How, in the relatively short time a retailer has with a customer, can they teach him what constitutes bad conditions. Some of us have been paddling for 20 years and can still be fooled. The morally appropriate technique may be to try to terrify the customer and see if they still want to kayak after hearing some horror stories. But, this will probably not sell as many kayaks. Kayak retail is a marginal enough business as it is without scaring away customers prepared to part with their money. Most honorable retailers are probably prepared to tell the occasional customer that the sport is probably not right for them. But, where do you draw the line? Who bares the responsibility for the safety of the customer? The boat manufacturer, the designer, the retailer, or the customer him/herself? This list serve group broke away from wave~length (RIP) primarily because one individual thought that the designers, manufactures and retailers were selling an unsafe product and it was his duty to save the customers of the world from the conspiracy. To a certain extent "sponson" Tim had a point. Kayaks can get you into deep trouble very quickly. But, it also a very pleasant sport with a relatively easy learning curve that can be enjoyed safely by the most inexperienced people. One of the things I find most facinating about kayaking is I can go out on the local lake for a pleasant little paddle one day and the next go crashing through gnarly surf. And use the same boat to do it. How do we introduce people to this sport while keeping them safe? How do you outline the risks of the sport without making it sound more dangerous than it really is? Is there one script that could be read to every person purchasing a kayak that will go far enough in reducing the risks? I don't have any answers to these questions although I suspect that the answer to last question is "No". I don't think there is any one thing you can say to everyone which will have the desired effect. Everyone who ever dies in a kayaking incident is a victim of inadequate education. If they could do it again, they would probably avoid the deadly situation. However, the retailer is going to go out of business if they say the one thing guaranteed to keep the customer from dying in a kayak: "Never get in a kayak." This does not condone saying nothing but it does mean they can never say enough. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As a very, very tiny business owner, I have been watching this thread and taking notes on what I want to do when I get the opportunity to expand. Well now that I look at the list, these are things I do now but I do them more one-on-one. I think this is something that enhances the *fun* factor, which is *why* I do this. When you're in trouble, things cease to be fun. I don't think it's too much to require customers to take a basic safety course prior to renting equipment. Stress the importance of *wearing* the PFD. It doesn't help if it's stuffed into the cockpit or otherwise in accessible. The customer should have a weather briefing. Knowing what conditions might be encountered during the time out could help them from getting in over their head. Provide a water briefing. Knowing the tides, currents and water temperatures expected along the planned route helps, everything from being dressed properly to decreasing the work factor and using conditions to advantage rather than fighting them. File a float plan. If you're not back at the agreed upon time, wouldn't you want someone to look for you and to know where to search? What have I missed? Alice *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Alice and All, Wow! Those are some pretty ambitious goals. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of wildwater > I don't think it's too much to require customers to take a > basic safety > course prior to renting equipment. Well, that depends on the environment and the boats I suppose. Local lake warm water vs. Bering sea etc. I think you might be surprised how many boats are rented on an annual basis (nope don't have any hard numbers just a ton of anecdotal evidence) to those with no classes and how few accidents there are. I can only think of one fatality in a rental boat off the top of my head and there are certainly tons of rental operations. > > Stress the importance of *wearing* the PFD. It doesn't help > if it's stuffed > into the cockpit or otherwise in accessible. I would go beyond that and have it as a stated requirement in your waiver. If they won't sign the waiver they don't get the boat. > > The customer should have a weather briefing. Knowing what > conditions might > be encountered during the time out could help them from getting > in over their > head. Hmmm... and what happens if your weather briefing is wrong? Personally I would leave this one up to NOAA. I would never want to be in a position where I had told a client that I thought the weather forecast was appropriate to make a particular crossing or trip. In fact, I used to use this as a screening device. If someone said the weather forecast is such and such do you think I would be ok going to xxx area? I would usually say I don't know what do you think? If they had no means of deciding how a particular forecast would affect a particular trip then they probably had no business being there. > > Provide a water briefing. Knowing the tides, currents and > water temperatures > expected along the planned route helps, everything from being > dressed properly to > decreasing the work factor and using conditions to advantage > rather than fighting > them. See above. > File a float plan. If you're not back at the agreed upon > time, wouldn't you > want someone to look for you and to know where to search? Do you really want that responsibility? How about suggesting that your clients file a float plan with a friend or relative. You are going to have your hands full trying to run a small business and I'm not sure that you want to be the one that calls the CG just someone stopped for dinner after paddling. Really I think you would be doing them a disservice by doing for them work they can do themselves. Start 'em off right and let them know that they need to take responsibility for their own actions. > What have I missed? > > Alice Sounds like you are very concerned and are trying to run a good shop. Best of luck with your venture. Cheers, > -- Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Hmmm... and what happens if your weather briefing is wrong? Personally I > would leave this one up to NOAA. I would never want to be in a position > where I had told a client that I thought the weather forecast was > appropriate to make a particular crossing or trip. In fact, I used to use > this as a screening device. If someone said the weather forecast is such > and such do you think I would be ok going to xxx area? I would usually say > I don't know what do you think? If they had no means of deciding how a > particular forecast would affect a particular trip then they probably had no > business being there. Actually, I thought I would have an area set up where the customer could get the appropriate information from the NWS/NOAA and post water temps and conditions for the local area. > > File a float plan. If you're not back at the agreed upon > > time, wouldn't you > > want someone to look for you and to know where to search? > > Do you really want that responsibility? How about suggesting that your > clients file a float plan with a friend or relative. You are going to have > your hands full trying to run a small business and I'm not sure that you > want to be the one that calls the CG just someone stopped for dinner after > paddling. Really I think you would be doing them a disservice by doing for > them work they can do themselves. Start 'em off right and let them know > that they need to take responsibility for their own actions. I see what you mean and who a float plan is filed with is up to them but they do have my equipment and if they haven't returned, I'm going to call whoever they filed with to see if perhaps it got late and they'll return the equip the next day or if they haven't returned, I'm going to be concerned that they are stranded somewhere. I would want someone to do the same for me. You are right that the expectations need to be well defined and very clear. Alice *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Alice and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: wildwater [mailto:wildoats_at_ionet.net] > > Hmmm... and what happens if your weather briefing is wrong? > Personally I > > would leave this one up to NOAA. I would never want to be in a position > > where I had told a client that I thought the weather forecast was > > appropriate to make a particular crossing or trip. In fact, I > used to use > > this as a screening device. If someone said the weather > forecast is such > > and such do you think I would be ok going to xxx area? I would > usually say > > I don't know what do you think? If they had no means of deciding how a > > particular forecast would affect a particular trip then they > probably had no > > business being there. > > Actually, I thought I would have an area set up where the > customer could get the > appropriate information from the NWS/NOAA and post water temps > and conditions > for the local area. That sounds like a great idea and a really nice service to your customers. A weather Kiosk. My point was that often in the store people would ask "do you think I can do xxx trip?" I don't like answering that question because what happens if I say "sure you can do it" and something awful happens. What I like to do is describe the conditions that I have seen in a particular area or talk about hazards that I know exist, and then let the customer make their own call. If I think someone is getting in way over their heads I let them know that too. > I see what you mean and who a float plan is filed with is up to > them but they do > have my equipment and if they haven't returned, I'm going to call > whoever they > filed with to see if perhaps it got late and they'll return the > equip the next > day or if they haven't returned, I'm going to be concerned that they are > stranded somewhere. I would want someone to do the same for me. > You are right > that the expectations need to be well defined and very clear. I think you raise some good points and i would like to see where this goes. I'm going to play devils advocate here. Here is the scenario: it is Monday night and you have two boats that were due in by close and as you count the till they still haven't come in. The customers have not taken any instruction from you but have taken a class from another local company. Lets say your company is big enough that you have a couple of employees and these boats went out while you were out of the shop running an errand. They have filed a float plan with you and they are paddling in a location that is aproximately five hours away from your shops location. The weather over the last couple of days has been unseasonably blowy but no hurricanes. What do you do? Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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