RE: [Paddlewise] Dry Tops and Bibs vs Dry Suits: Kokotat

Hi Fred, Craig, and All,


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net
> [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Fred T, CA
> Kayaker
>
> I thought that I would purchase a Kokotat TecTour jacket to go with some
> Kokotat bibs I got on sale while on a business trip to Chicago.   Not
> having used this type of system before I checked out Kokotat's
> web site to
> get their instructions on using their system and found their
> reference to a
> "neo deck skirt" confusing:

<SNIP>

> "If you don't use a neoprene tunneled spray skirt over the folds and you
> wet exit and re-enter you will find that all of the twisting and movement
> will cause the top and bib connection to come un-done and you may
> get some
> water in."

When I first heard of the bib/drytop combination I was very skeptical so I
got a bib and started experimenting.  I have owned the bibs (goretex)for
several years and have used them in combination with a drytop and, since it
came out, also with a tec-tour depending on what type of paddling I'm doing.

Here is what I have experienced with the combos.  When I first got the bibs
I swam in them every chance I got, in rivers, in surf, in flat water.  I
would do this at the end of the day of boating just to see how dry they
were.

How well this system works is dependant on how fussy you are when you fold
the two pieces of clothing together.  I have found that the sequence that
works for me is:
1.  First burp the suit
2.  Fold not roll the tunnels together.
3.  Put on skirt (covering folds if tunnel is deep enough, not all are)
4.  Carefully pull the outer tunnel down.  It is important not to disturb
the folds as you pull the  tunnel down in the rear.
5.  Cinch the neoprene closure on the outer tunnel
6.  Burp the suit again
7.  Put on pfd and cinch for a nice snug fit.

What I have found is that wearing a neo skirt and pfd I can usually swim and
move around quite a bit and get no water in the suit at all.  This is with a
drytop not the tec tour.  If I'm in the water a long time doing lots of
rescue demos- assisted, paddlefloat, re-enter and roll, etc., sometimes I
will get a small amount of water in the suit.  Not much, certainly not
enough to be dangerous, just a minor cold trickle.

Swimming wearing no skirt just the suit and a pfd resulted in just a minor
amount of water, again nothing that I would consider a compromise in safety.
A snug fitting pfd does a good job of keeping the folds together.


Swimming with no skirt and no pfd resulted in the most intrusion of water.
Again things trickled in rather than flooding bit I wouldn't want to spend
hours in the water this way.  Since I don't paddle without a skirt and pfd
it's really not an issue for me, I simply did some experimenting to see what
the results would be.

Using a tec-tour and not a drytop results in some water entering at the neck
of the suit.  Rolling seems to let in a cup or so of water, I don't really
have any way of knowing for sure how much really comes in.  If the water is
really cold a teaspoon feels like a quart.  Once you are swimming (assuming
you are weraing a pfd) the neck closure is above the water and not much can
enter the suit.  I had a student take surf classes with this combo and he
was quite happy.

Just a coincidence, last night I taught a rescue class in a local lake.  I
spent about 2.5 hours bracing, rolling, swimming, and re-entering the boat
and didn't get a single drop of water in through my folded seal.  (bibs
mated with gore light-wave drytop).  It's not always that way but I would
say that happens, I'm guessing here, maybe 1/3 of the time.  If I'm not
swimming and just bracing and rolling I can't ever remember getting wet.

Keep in mind that none of my experimenting was very controlled or
scientific.  Just a skeptical paddler out goofing around.



>
> My comment:  This isn't a safe bet without the "neo deck skirt" and could
> come undone during paddling."

It does work better with a neo skirt but I would personally be comfortable
with out it.
<More Snippage>

> I don't think it wise to have "FALSE" confidence in a system that isn't
> going to be as secure as one might think.  In this case a dry
> suit properly
> worn is a far better choice if you can afford it and wearing neoprene
> actually much safer than the top/bib combo though less comfortable.


Well, everyone needs to be comfortable with their choices in safety gear.  I
agree that a 1 piece drysuit is a more bombproof and foolproof system (if
you remember to zip it) but I'm very comfortable with the two piece combo.
I don't think that it is at all a false sense of security on my part as I
have used this system extensively.

I would suggest that any piece of gear that you are betting your life on
should be tested, so don't just take my word on it.  Get your bibs and tec
tour on and go for a swim, you may be pleasantly surprised with the results.




*****DISCLAIMER******

I don't work for Kokatat, but I do know those folks down there pretty well,
I sometimes do a little product testing for them and I'm definitely biased.
So take this for what it's worth, free advice over the internet. YMMV

Cheers,

Rob Cookson

 "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin

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