Matt wrote: > I'm surprised by your experience with >the Caribou in following seas. Usually hard chine boats that respond well to >a lean turn like the Caribou does do well there. Maybe its that old >proactive/reactive preference of yours, or maybe I should try it out for >myself in following seas (or at least a steep boatwake) instead of believing >the ravings and first impressions of blind men. > I did not paddle the Caribou in following seas. It was on protected water but with very strong wind, 25 knots with gusts to 35. It was extremely difficult for me to hold direction. A skeg would certainly have helped but there was so much wind effect that I felt that it was the hull shape itself that was poorly designed. I have no trouble at all in this condition with the Express. And very little with the GTS, even with the rudder raised. Even with the seat out of trim the Express hull is not very affected by wind and can be turned easily. The GTS tracks extremely straight in wind. It is almost completely unaffected and goes straight. But it takes considerable effort to turn. I think the Caribou would be great in surf, but not wind. Again, I know that there are enthusiastic fans of the Caribou. I believe that a necessary, but not sufficient condition, for a good design is near neutral behavior of boat and paddler in any direction of wind, without rudder or skeg. The Express and GTS meet this, in different ways, but the Caribou does not. Matt wrote: >I forgot you had paddled the Mariner II. Essentially Doug is repeating what >he interpreted one blind man to have said. I'm surprised that you think >there is much to learn about the Elephant from heresay once removed from a >blind man. >> I don't think this is fair. I am interested in what Doug has heard and in how he filters it before passing it on. Opinions are interesting and food for thought. Matt wrote: >Since you paddled the Mariner II and have read what others have written >about the Nordkapp why did you need to ask the question of Doug that started >this thread. I did not need to ask the question. But look at all the fascinating discussion it has prompted. I just received detailed opinions on my favorite topic from two of my favorite commentators. You and Doug. Matt wrote: >This may lose me a sale, but, I doubt you will find a huge >difference between the Mariner II and the Express in a following sea unless >you are carrying a gear load (I'm not sure if you are interested in its >handling when the kayak is empty or when gear laden or both). The mariner II >is better with a gear load than the Express in following seas. The Mariner >Max requires less proactiveness than either the Express or the Mariner II in >a following sea--empty or loaded down. > >From my one day in Deception Pass with the Mariner II my perception is that it was significantly easier to power through any turbulence than it would have been in the Express. Therefore it seemed more forgiving. I did not notice any significant difference in stability. Maybe the Express would have been better for playing. The MAX felt too big for me and felt noticeably less efficient than the II. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
So it seems you were experiencing the strong weather helm that I too noticed in the Caribou. The drop skeg should fix this though when it is necessary. I really liked the responsiveness of the Caribou and can see how paddlers could become devoted fans of it (especially if they have one with the skeg or stay out of side winds--and haven't paddled some of the kayaks you have for comparison). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerald Foodman [mailto:klagjf_at_worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 9:31 PM > To: Matt Broze; Paddlewise > Cc: Fred Mansueto > Subject: Re: Paul Caffyn and rudders > > > > > Matt wrote: > > I'm surprised by your experience with > >the Caribou in following seas. Usually hard chine boats that respond well > to > >a lean turn like the Caribou does do well there. Maybe its that old > >proactive/reactive preference of yours, or maybe I should try it out for > >myself in following seas (or at least a steep boatwake) instead of > believing > >the ravings and first impressions of blind men. > > > > I did not paddle the Caribou in following seas. It was on > protected water > but with very strong wind, 25 knots with gusts to 35. It was extremely > difficult for me to hold direction. A skeg would certainly have > helped but > there was so much wind effect that I felt that it was the hull > shape itself > that was poorly designed. I have no trouble at all in this condition with > the Express. And very little with the GTS, even with the rudder raised. > Even with the seat out of trim the Express hull is not very > affected by wind > and can be turned easily. The GTS tracks extremely straight in > wind. It is > almost completely unaffected and goes straight. But it takes considerable > effort to turn. I think the Caribou would be great in surf, but not wind. > Again, I know that there are enthusiastic fans of the Caribou. I believe > that a necessary, but not sufficient condition, for a good design is near > neutral behavior of boat and paddler in any direction of wind, without > rudder or skeg. The Express and GTS meet this, in different ways, but the > Caribou does not. > > Matt wrote: > >I forgot you had paddled the Mariner II. Essentially Doug is > repeating what > >he interpreted one blind man to have said. I'm surprised that you think > >there is much to learn about the Elephant from heresay once > removed from a > >blind man. > >> > > I don't think this is fair. I am interested in what Doug has heard and in > how he filters it before passing it on. Opinions are interesting and food > for thought. > > Matt wrote: > >Since you paddled the Mariner II and have read what others have written > >about the Nordkapp why did you need to ask the question of Doug that > started > >this thread. > > I did not need to ask the question. But look at all the fascinating > discussion it has prompted. I just received detailed opinions on my > favorite topic from two of my favorite commentators. You and Doug. > > Matt wrote: > >This may lose me a sale, but, I doubt you will find a huge > >difference between the Mariner II and the Express in a following > sea unless > >you are carrying a gear load (I'm not sure if you are interested in its > >handling when the kayak is empty or when gear laden or both). The mariner > II > >is better with a gear load than the Express in following seas. > The Mariner > >Max requires less proactiveness than either the Express or the Mariner II > in > >a following sea--empty or loaded down. > > > >From my one day in Deception Pass with the Mariner II my > perception is that > it was significantly easier to power through any turbulence than it would > have been in the Express. Therefore it seemed more forgiving. I did not > notice any significant difference in stability. Maybe the Express would > have been better for playing. The MAX felt too big for me and felt > noticeably less efficient than the II. > > Jerry > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> . I > really liked the responsiveness of the Caribou and can see how paddlers > could become devoted fans of it (especially if they have one with the skeg > or stay out of side winds--and haven't paddled some of the kayaks you have > for comparison). I sure love mine (thanks to Melissa for steering me in that direction). Not only does it stay straight in both side winds and following seas (well, at least in the moderate conditions I've paddled it in so far), but it sure is purdy. Mark L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald Foodman wrote: > I did not paddle the Caribou in following seas. It was on protected water > but with very strong wind, 25 knots with gusts to 35. It was extremely > difficult for me to hold direction. The Caribou has almost no tendency to weathercock in winds above 20 knots, unless the wind has a short fetch. In any significant seas the weatherhealm disappears. On open water, it is only moderate winds that create noticable weatherhelm, and then only when the boat is not trimmed appropriately. Of course the use of the drop-down skegs simplifies things by obviating the need to pay attention to trim. > I think the Caribou would be great in surf, but not wind. You would be correct on the first point, but wrong about the second (unless you paddle mainly behind a jetty or in other conditions where there is a short fetch, in which case even moderate boat handling skills allow one to keep the boat on track). Matt Broze wrote (in response to Gerald): > So it seems you were experiencing the strong weather helm that I too noticed > in the Caribou. The drop skeg should fix this though when it is necessary. I > really liked the responsiveness of the Caribou and can see how paddlers > could become devoted fans of it (especially if they have one with the skeg > or stay out of side winds--and haven't paddled some of the kayaks you have > for comparison). Well Matt, this may be an example of the blind agreeing with the blind (to use your term). Gerald paddled the Caribou once, behind a jetty. How much experience do you have with the boat in exposed conditions? Not much, I suspect. Moreover, your belief that people could only be fans of the Caribou if they have not paddled the Express strikes me as a bit narrow minded (although it is certainly consistent with your reputation--Mariner uber alles). Believe it or not, some Caribou paddlers, such as myself, have paddled the Express, and prefer the Caribou. I even paddle in side winds. :-) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jerry "Gerald Foodman" posted recently: <Matt wrote: > I'm surprised by your experience with >the Caribou in following seas. Usually hard chine boats that respond well to >a lean turn like the Caribou does do well there. Maybe its that old >proactive/reactive preference of yours, or maybe I should try it out for >myself in following seas (or at least a steep boatwake) instead of believing >the ravings and first impressions of blind men. > It should be noted that the CD Caribou was originally designed and then sold for a while with no skeg option, but eventually became available with a skeg due to customer pressure, from what I have been told from seeing-eye humans :-). When the Caribou first came out, I knew it would be just a matter of time before the skeg became an available reality. The enjoyment for me was seeing how long the designer could "hold-out" on his explanation that his "baby" didn't need one. At least market pressure brings necessary "evolution". BTW, many of the serious CD fans in Victoria are paddling the new and improved Gulfstream with the lower aft deck and leak proof skeg housing with improved skeg slider. If I was going to consider a wider boat than what I now currently paddle, I would seriously consider the Gulfstream (in british racing green), but not before test paddling some of the Mariner kayaks first, as I really would like to not have to rely on a rudder or skeg, which I've seen break-down or fail in the field far too often. Rudders are also not aesthetically pleasing to look at, except on a folder. <snip> Matt wrote: >I forgot you had paddled the Mariner II. Essentially Doug is repeating what >he interpreted one blind man to have said. I'm surprised that you think >there is much to learn about the Elephant from heresay once removed from a >blind man. The blind man was a long-time Mariner paddler, hardly blind, unless only a short-sighted person would buy one <g>. And hardly blind if he was able to see certain design characteristics that eventually did not suit him. The Mariner II was obviously a redesign, or am I wrong? If 90% of what I posted regarding the paddler's comments about the Mariner One were verbatim, is that so excessively removed? I would personally love to here from some other independent sources what the Mariner II is like for exposed coast paddling. Back-channel is fine. (Sub-context: I would like to try one out, but do not wish to drive down to Seattle if it isn't worth the effort, though I do feel a moral obligation to try one out at some point this next winter season). Matt wrote: >Since you paddled the Mariner II and have read what others have written >about the Nordkapp why did you need to ask the question of Doug that started >this thread. Jerry said: >>I did not need to ask the question. But look at all the fascinating discussion it has prompted. I just received detailed opinions on my favorite topic from two of my favorite commentators. You and Doug.<< Just to set the record straight, for me anyway, Matt, along with Nick and John, are my favorite commentators. Also, I'm not much of a hero worshipper, except maybe for Tom -- given his determined progress as he struggles to regain higher functionality in his life. I do respect highly the other three names, especially Matt. Anything I say about Matt is meant to be light-hearted and cordial. Matt and I have been bantering back and forth for years. I used to say stuff like, "you need a good thick hull to seal-land". He would write back in our old ocean kayaking newsletter that he has been up and down the coast of Vancouver Island, and has never seen one rock you could land on properly. I would then pipe up and say that is how I regularly land out there during adventure paddles (my recollection of what was said, only). I've always enjoyed the dialogue. Matt is also a true pariah to the power brokers of the paddle sports industry, refusing to be one of their pawns, and for this I hold him in the utmost regard. I'm also fascinated by Jerry's quest for the perfect boat, or at least his meanderings along that pathway. And while I appreciate Matt's technical prowess and attendant knowledge base, I know little of, and could care less about, sweet science; rather, I simply want a sweet, sea kindly ride from my sweet sea-chariot. I realize it takes lots of tweaking with prismatic coefficients and all the other nautical nuances to bring about that end and/or improve upon the status quo to go on and find better working compromises. That is why I will always listen with interest and take note of kayak designers, no matter how pathologically obsessed or infamously verbose they might happen to be over technicalities :-). Good luck, Jerry. Paddle on people! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > It should be noted that the CD Caribou was originally designed and then > sold for a while with no skeg option, but eventually became available > with a skeg due to customer pressure, from what I have been told from > seeing-eye humans :-). Sorry Doug, but you have your facts wrong regarding the original Caribou. The Caribou (which has been produced since 1989) was originally sold with a (no-cost) skeg option. When CD started to manufacture the boat (in 1995 or 96), they did not make the skeg available, which was a marketing blunder. The market for the boat was significantly broadened when they added the skeg. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have a feeling the designer had nothing to do with whether the Caribou got a skeg. Barry Buchannan of Mt Desert Island, Maine designed the boat and built it as a high end custom boat out of wood and later as in a composite layup. The boats he built were gorgeous with custom graphic paint jobs. The aesthetics of the boat built by CD does not compare to the beautiful originals built by Barry. However, when CD took over production of the design they probably took over the decision about installing a skeg. Obviously Barry didn't think it was required, and the paddlers who have an original made by Barry are happy with them. I haven't paddled the boat enough to have an opinion. At 11:49 PM -0700 5/15/00, Doug Lloyd wrote: >It should be noted that the CD Caribou was originally designed and then >sold for a while with no skeg option, but eventually became available >with a skeg due to customer pressure, from what I have been told from >seeing-eye humans :-). When the Caribou first came out, I knew it would >be just a matter of time before the skeg became an available reality. >The enjoyment for me was seeing how long the designer could "hold-out" >on his explanation that his "baby" didn't need one. <snip> Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St, Suite I Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > I have a feeling the designer had nothing to do with whether the Caribou > got a skeg. Barry Buchannan of Mt Desert Island, Maine designed the boat > and built it as a high end custom boat out of wood and later as in a > composite layup. <snip> Thanks for clarifying the issue regarding the original designer. I think I was using the term a bit too loosely, and obviously incorrectly. As soon as I saw your post, before I even read it, I new what it was about. I believe you have had to clarify the point once before on Paddlewise if I'm not mistaken, (someone else had posted incorrect info regarding the Caribou's origins, etc). I had forgotten. Sorry Nick, et al. As far as the Caribou needing a skeg, does any boat that behaves reasonably well really need a skeg? When I first saw the boat out here on the west coast in its current incarnation (just prior to the skeg option) I felt it would need a skeg for those paddlers who were not so proactive. We also get a lot of wind around my part of the world, often with not a lot of fetch, so a skeg does tend to lend a modicum of relief during contrary conditions...so I hear :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: > >As far as the Caribou needing a skeg, does any boat that behaves reasonably >well really need a skeg? Doug, Do you know why Chris Duff chose not to have a skeg on his Romany Explorer for his most recent circumnavigation? (Do you know why he changed from Nordkapp to Romany?) ( I am going to rent a Romany in San Francisco on June 2) Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald Foodman wrote: > Doug wrote: > > > >As far as the Caribou needing a skeg, does any boat that behaves reasonably > >well really need a skeg? > > Doug, > Do you know why Chris Duff chose not to have a skeg on his Romany Explorer > for his most recent circumnavigation? (Do you know why he changed from > Nordkapp to Romany?) ( I am going to rent a Romany in San Francisco on June > 2) > Jerry Jerry, You are bound and determined to get me into trouble :-) Matt says I'm an "influential" poster ( I always wanted to be a poster boy) so I apparently need to be careful what I say. I tend to think of myself as simply a dumb ass braying into the wind. Many in Victoria might agree (Okay, not just Victoria). Fortunately, I have spoken to Chris Duff a few times (he lives just across from Victoria) both in person and on the phone. He paddles the Juan de Fuca Strait when she's a blowing, so I like him even if he did jump ship from a Nordkapp. He told me that his sciatica was bothersome of late, and that he could no longer paddle a Nordkapp comfortably, though he would of liked to continue with it for reasons that I can't put into his exact words ( I don't want to get into any more trouble!). He did say the Nordkapp HM was a stiff tracking expeditionary boat of merit, but that the downside was in a following sea, once the Nordkapp begins its inevitable broach despite early corrective strokes, it is then very difficult to get back in line again. This concurs with what a number of paddlers have reported, including Matt. I'm not too sure how well versed Chris is with edging and leaning, but I imagine his skills are good to excellent in that area. He stated he went to the Romany due to its comfortable fit, stability (he didn't say if he meant initial or secondary) for picture taking, and its ability to course correct with quick paddle action. I mentioned the skeg imperative, but he felt that would detract from storage capacity and loading options. I took note of what he was saying, as like you, one is always "all ears" when a person of some-to-alot of experience switches kayaks. Still worried about his NZ trip, I queried him again about the problems associated dealing with high winds from any point on the compass relative to his intended line of travel. He said that some fairly rough conditions had been presented out on the Strait since he acquired the Romany and had begun training with it that year, and that he had not encountered any bothersom difficulty handling the un-skegged Romany. That is the point in my life where I actually started to believe some of Matt's propaganda about proactive paddling combined with an appropriate kayak making for a "less is better" philosophy. I am completely intrigued now. Someone else on the list may know Chris and could hazard a post reply to you, but probably they are too smart to put their pre ambulatory device in their gastrointestinal receiving orifice. :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > As far as the Caribou needing a skeg, does any boat that behaves reasonably > well really need a skeg? The boat holds its course a little better in surfing or crosswind conditions with the skeg down. I like the design, appearance, feel and performance of the boat generally. As far as I'm concerned, that ends the question. Any further "debate" strikes me as largely academic and based more on various preconceptions about skegs and rudders, than on realistic and practical issues. Mark L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Sailboat Restorations, Inc." wrote: > > > > As far as the Caribou needing a skeg, does any boat that behaves > reasonably > > well really need a skeg? > > The boat holds its course a little better in surfing or crosswind conditions > with the skeg down. I like the design, appearance, feel and performance of > the boat generally. As far as I'm concerned, that ends the question. Any > further "debate" strikes me as largely academic and based more on various > preconceptions about skegs and rudders, than on realistic and practical > issues. > Mark L That was my point of course. It is great to see examples of paddlers like you and Dan who are happy with their kayaks. You can concentrate on other things then :-) Thanks for not posting a bunch of rhetoric. I'm sure there has been a lot of deleting by people lately. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > ... It is great to see examples of paddlers like you and Dan who are > happy with their kayaks. You can concentrate on other things then :-) > ... Yes, like helping others choose a kayak by shining a light into the darkness. :-) :-) Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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