Vince Dalrymple said: >>I remember a friend's incident a few winters back. He's also a WW paddler (1st & foremost), rodeo playboater really, who rolls WERE "bombproof" - on and offside.<< How about "reliable" instead of "bombproof"? Nothing is bombproof, not even a bunker because there is always a bigger bomb. >>With water temp. about 40 and air temp. around 50, he came paddling with our group dressed in a shorty (or farmer john) wetsuit. Pushed against the ~20 kt. wind down to a play area that was kicking up, wore ourselves out (least I did :-), and surfed back up the shore as the wind and waves picked up.<< That is very cold water indeed. Was he wearing an appropriate dry top? What kind of head gear? >>Our group was in a very loose spread with him about 25~50 yds. in front of me at the back end of the group (I was sweep that day). Whether he got sloppy or just fell asleep at the helm, he caught something wrong and capsized.<< What kind of boat was he in? WW? Sea kayak? What width? Was this his normal kayak? Loaned? Had he hardly ever paddled it, even if it was his own? >>I watched him set up for a roll on his good side, down wind as his capsized boat turned to broach the wind / waves. As soon as he went for the hip flick, the paddle shaft went vertical and back over he went (C2C, I think). Good pause before the next attempt - same side. Same vertical shaft and failed roll (Sweep Roll, I think). Another pause. His last roll attempt (as I reached him) was an extended pawlata (same side again) with the same results.>> His problem was obvious...no neck-thrustn', cervical-cracking, wayward, full-on head dink (!), and the even more obvious...obviously he was using a feathered paddle. :-) >>With my reaching him on the upwind side and his rolls being on the down wind side, he didn't know I was there for a bow rescue and popped out of his boat. Surprisingly, he was a lot more frustrated with three consecutive blown rolls than he was cold (guess you WW paddlers already have ice in your veins). Helped clear his boat and got him back in it as the other paddlers arrived and everything worked out.<< Boat-over-boat, T-rescue, pump-out, or???? >>His problem had been that his broached boat was being blown over the paddle with more force than he could apply downwards to execute the roll. I kind of doubt that even Doug Lloyd or Matt Broze could have pulled off the down wind rolls he was trying that day.<< Can't speak for Matt (he keeps most of his gonzo stuff to himself, being responsible and all). As for me, no, I probably would not have executed a lee-sided broach roll, but then I would not usually have attempted one either (or if I did, I'd try one and only one, then quickly shift under water to an up-wind roll which actually takes some of the work out of it for you). I've done that in some much higher winds/seas than you allude to, and I will periodically go out precisely into those conditions just to practice that very same maneuver. In cold water where inadequate thermal head protection is being worn, I will not waste my time trying even one down-wind roll, though I have practiced coming part way up on the downwind side, the letting gravity pull me back down from partial success to fully capsized, whereupon momentum can help you come back up on the up-wind side (depends on PFD buoyancy and how big a footprint you present to the water). Also, down-wind rolling isn't that difficult with longer wave periods if you time it during the trough, where the gusts go overhead and the wave hasn't slammed the hull yet. On the up-wind roll-up, one does it precisely _when_ the trough passes by and the wave does hit. I'm not a super big guy, but do have a bit of weight atop, so I've had to develop these strategies to get back up after a knock down. >>Lesson #1 - Can't roll up on one side due to the forces working against you? Switch sides and make the conditions work for you. He could have possibly hand rolled his way back up on his off, but up wind side _that_ day. Best example I know to have an offside roll, even a sloppy one ;-) Lesson #2 - There's no such thing as a 100% BOMBPROOF roll So have a good Reentry & Roll in the repertoire and always approach the sea with respect before it teaches you humility>> Didn't read far enough ahead on your post, Vince. I see you have some good conclusions here. It is good to realize, however (opinion time!), that a roll to me is not a sign of failure. Coming out of your boat is. Once you have left the security of your vessel, you have failed miserably. You are a failure in my book if you do that. I've been a failure in my book a couple of times! Anything that keeps you in your cockpit after a partial or fully consummated capsize is fine, be it a reliable roll, sculling-to-upright, ready-to-use paddle float on the rear deck, hand-roll, throwing stick roll, or a "Back Up" Co2 rescue device, whatever. The off-side roll thing can be a pain. Practice practice. Keep up some kind of stretching regime, as that may be part of the problem. Surfing with moderate high braces into medium sized waves on your off-side is also a good way to develop some confidence with the off-side problem. Learn to turn you bow into the wind and waves, while upside down. Its not that difficult using an extended Pawlata, and you don't need a full 90 degree turn - just lots of lung capacity and will power. Can't get a good offside roll no matter what. Fine, just make sure your good-sided roll is reliable under combat situations, and you have a 50% chance...okay, 49% :-). >>Vince mid Atlantic storm paddler who hasn't gone for an unintentional swim yet<< Vince, you guys had the lovely "perfect storm" on you coast few years ago (the movie is coming out at the end of June). Did any paddlers get out from your area to try it out, even if in a protected basin or whatever? Then, Dave Seng said: >>Dear Paddlewiser's, Not to cast aspersions on anyone's technique (because I know there are many paddlers on this list with far greater skills than I may ever hope to achieve - and I mean that quite seriously), but can anyone really claim to have a "bombproof" roll? << This rolling debate is kind of like rolling...you can keep going round and round about it. :-) (In general, not you, Dave). Chris Duff told me he had a "bombproof roll". Of course, I asked him why he then wears a personal boat-to-paddler tether. He said in case it isn't "bombproof"! I have a fairly "bombproof roll", but tether myself too, at times. I know I'm capable of blowing my roll (mostly my off-side roll). For myself, my roll isn't "boobproof" either! Our club was practicing under a bridge here in Victoria a few years ago, utilizing a reversing falls that really honks along at certain times. We were assessing instructors for their ability to teach novices how to cross eddy lines and mostly, lean down stream. As it wasn't a full-on gung-ho production, we omitted helmets. Near full ebb at the end of the session, I decided to see if I could be the only one to power through the jet-like current, through the narrow confines of the bridge abutments. I did actually manage to get my Nordkapp through. I tried it a second time to prove my superiority as an uphill paddlers of caliber, but the second attempt sent me into an upstream lean. I immediately tripped over, leaving myself hanging upside down. All I remember is hitting my head on an ebb stream submerged rock in mid channel, and coming to the surface gasping for life and air. An instructor trainer in training rescued me, and couldn't understand why I had wet exited in front of the students (I was supposedly an observer only). Well... it was hard to do a head-dink from a head-dunk when you just about suffered a head-dislodgement! <<I came to sea kayaking from a whitewater paddling background and must say that while I've paddled with some VERY good paddlers I've never met anyone who had never taken a swim. In the large part many (most?) sea kayakers may never encounter the same types of violent, unpredictable forces that WW can produce, but I'm still somewhat skeptical of this whole concept of, "my roll's so reliable that I'll never have to swim". Dave, WW boats are a different paddlecraft. I can spend a full day in the surf zone, in a WW kayak, rolling till the cows come home -- never missing a beat. Can't do that in a sea kayak While WW kayakers should never claim a "bombproof roll" as their own, beyond perhaps its accepted use in the vernacular as a replacement for the word "combat roll" which WW paddlers frequently do (combat rolling, that is), I can see why they continue to use the term. >>I'm not trying to challenge anyone, but rather asking folks to really evaluate the concept and their skills. I've been thrashed, trashed, chewed on, and fortunately spit up, by waters that had the capacity to kill me. Blind faith in my skills would have resulted in exactly that end. I guess what I'm trying to remind folks of is that faith in one's skills may (and should be!) a great source of confidence, but to also remember that the forces of nature, in the end, can many times far surpass man's skills.<< It really does feel like the end of the world when you screw up big time because of hubris, or even due to a little poor planning. You are left cold, wet, nervous, trying to stay calm and think. Suddenly, in a nano second, all the training, all the technical skills, all the machismo, all the thoughts of challenge and adventure (no matter at what level it ensued), all the certificates and sewn-on badges, and all the "combat glory" simply depart. One is left with a big lump in their throat knowing, in most cases, it all could have been avoided with a bit more good judgment. >> There's a quote in the front of Derek Hutchinson's book, "The Complete Book of Sea Kayaking" that goes like this, "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, he said, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. But we do be afraid of the sea, and we do only be drowned now and again." - original quote from John Millington Synge - "The Aran Islands" Men and women who spend their life vocationally (or in terms of transportation) in and around the water, have long suffered sudden loss of life. It is a way of life - and death. Recreational paddlers. of course, have a choice where they place themselves. But be assured, the sea can be a dangerous place, even on a nice day. Novices need to hear this, and experienced paddlers need to be reminded from time to time. But like Colin said a couple of years ago in a post, mostly, the experienced paddler, when they mess up, come home with a cold, wet ars, but do usually come home. Often a novice doesn't make it home, and often is wasn't totally their fault, as the sea has a few suprises where ignorance doesn't yield bliss. Study the environment you intend to paddle in. That's half the fun of it, anyway. And as far as a reliable roll, average paddlers may take up to three years to develope a good one: believe me, I know. Poster and Jester Jed is a bit better than most of us in this regard. >> It's very important to be able to self rescue in a wide range of conditions (and I'm a firm believer in the concept of self rescue being the first, best, and only truly reliable rescue) but don't put all your eggs in the "I can roll" basket.....<< No, but it is still a good basket. My editorial input to SK magazine has been to include more on rolling, both in terms of specific items, historical items, and perhaps even some essay type articles on the subject. I spoke with a friend here in Victoria recently, and SK is finally going to run his piece on rolling. I'm eagerly awaiting it in the next issue. My friend has put a lot of thought into the psychology of rolling, of the need to make that first one count, and what to do if you didn't make the first one (we disagree on one issue of hand placement changes, so I'm curious if that will get covered). Interestingly, WaveLenght recently had a piece on rolling, and the editor was sure to qualify the piece by including a brief blurb, telling readers that rolling wasn't an essential skill. Not sure why that rolling word scares so many people and/or editors. Anyway, Dave does have a good point.I would add that hey, if you are going to spend good money, you usually get three quotes. Likewise, if you are going to put a good life out on the sea, you should have at least three methods of self rescue, IMHO. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<< It's very important to be able to self rescue in a wide range of conditions (and I'm a firm believer in the concept of self rescue being the first, best, and only truly reliable rescue) but don't put all your eggs in the "I can roll" basket.... >> I like to think that I have a pretty bomb proof roll. Years of surfing kayaks has put a keen edge on it. I am only half joking when I tell people that at this point of my kayaking career I would rather that my drowned body be found still seated in my boat then have to do a wet exit. But I don't rely on my roll. I rely on good judgment honed by years of experience to paddle within my range of abilities and to avoid an accidental capsize in the first place. I've said it before and I'll say it again; common sense and good judgment are far more important in this sport then are skills and equipment. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Scott and All, That was very well said, and really sums up my philosophy as well. I think that your last sentence is worth repeating. >I've said it before and I'll say it again; common sense and good > judgment are far more important in this sport then are skills and > equipment I try to emphasize in my courses that a good roll and a drysuit are not license for stupidity. Same goes for the VHF. I have a real problem with the "if I get in over my head I'll call for help attitude". Cheers, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Doug, all, Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Vince Dalrymple said: > > >>With water temp. about 40 and air temp. around 50, he came paddling > with > our group dressed in a shorty (or farmer john) wetsuit. Pushed against > the ~20 kt. wind down to a play area and surfed back > > That is very cold water indeed. Was he wearing an appropriate dry top? > What kind of head gear? I don't remember if he was wearing any sort of paddle jacket or not - no dry top, no head wear to my memory. Whatever he was wearing on top, if anything was short sleeve, though. Real tough guy who was comfortable in the water (though I do wonder if there was some amount of initial cold shock which kept him from thinking "switch sides", coupled with the surprise from his first sea kayak capsize), calmly talked his way through the rescue, paddled another couple miles back to the put-in without complaint, then debriefed over lunch. To my knowledge, he didn't normally winter paddle and may have been talked into that one. Paddling with a group of rescue competent friends in conditions which he could handle fine (on all but this day) also went into his decision, I'd bet. Still, I should not have mentioned how he was attired here on PW as it sets a rather bad example of "smart paddling" and would _not_ work for probably + 90% of the PWers out there, including myself. His time in the water was under 5 minutes, how much under, I don't remember. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > What kind of boat was he in? WW? Sea kayak? What width? Was this his > normal kayak? Loaned? Had he hardly ever paddled it, even if it was his > own? Seda Glider (19'x22"), less than half a year old. Probably hadn't paddled it that much before the incident. Don't know if he had it foamed out at the time. Still races it successfully, though. Can't remember what he paddled before (P&H Sirius, maybe). --------------------------------------------------------------- > >>I watched him set up for a roll on his > good side, down wind as his capsized boat turned to broach the wind / > waves. As soon as he went for the hip flick, the paddle shaft went > vertical and back over he went (C2C, I think). Good pause before the > next attempt - same side. Same vertical shaft and failed roll (Sweep > Roll, I think). Another pause. His last roll attempt (as I reached > him) was an extended pawlata (same side again) with the same results.>> > > His problem was obvious...no neck-thrustn', cervical-cracking, wayward, > full-on head dink (!), and the even more obvious...obviously he was > using a feathered paddle. :-) Aye, feathered, and composite, too - a "traditionalist's nightmare, indeed! ;-) Regarding the cervical crackin' head dink, I just don't know about that day. I was on the windward side only seeing hull movements and hand positions on the paddle. What I know of the roll types was based on his "natural preference" WW C2C for the first roll. Slower and "more deliberate" for the second, which makes me theorize the switch to Sweep roll. Either way, it wasn't discussed during the debrief after. Neither was the head dink. However, he was instrumental in teaching me to handroll (borrowed WW Medieval), knows and shows _proper_ head dink for all non layback rolls. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>With my reaching him on the upwind side and his rolls being on the > down > wind side, he didn't know I was there for a bow rescue and popped out of > > his boat. Surprisingly, he was a lot more frustrated with three > consecutive blown rolls than he was cold (guess you WW paddlers already > have ice in your veins). Helped clear his boat and got him back in it > as the other paddlers arrived and everything worked out.<< > > Boat-over-boat, T-rescue, pump-out, or???? Don't remember for sure, but seems it was probably an Over the Boats Reentry followed by a Pump-Out. Given the time period, it was before my formal rescue training. I had seen T-Rescues done, but may not have been practiced with them at that time. BTW, isn't the Boat over Boat the same as a T-Rescue (or slight variation of it)? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>His problem had been that his broached boat was being blown over the > paddle with more force than he could apply downwards to execute the > roll. I kind of doubt that even Doug Lloyd or Matt Broze could have > pulled off the down wind rolls he was trying that day.<< > > Can't speak for Matt (he keeps most of his gonzo stuff to himself, being > responsible and all). As for me, no, I probably would not have executed > a lee-sided broach roll, but then I would not usually have attempted one > either (or if I did, I'd try one and only one, then quickly shift under > water to an up-wind roll which actually takes some of the work out of it > for you). NOTICE TO ALL NOVICE PADDLERS LEARNING THEIR ROLLS - get comfortable enough just "hanging out" while capsized to be patient, think, and execute properly what you need to do. And learn to swim the boat from side to side while capsized. Even if you don't have a working off side roll, it might come surprisingly easily with these sorts of conditions _helping_ you to roll. > I've done that in some much higher winds/seas than you allude > to, and I will periodically go out precisely into those conditions just > to practice that very same maneuver. <snip>I have practiced coming part way up on > the downwind side, then letting gravity pull me back down from partial > success to fully capsized, whereupon momentum can help you come back up > on the up-wind side (depends on PFD buoyancy and how big a footprint you > present to the water). Also, down-wind rolling isn't that difficult > with longer wave periods if you time it during the trough, where the > gusts go overhead and the wave hasn't slammed the hull yet. On the > up-wind roll-up, one does it precisely _when_ the trough passes by and > the wave does hit. I'm not a super big guy, but do have a bit of weight > atop, so I've had to develop these strategies to get back up after a > knock down. I concur. All very good advice which does deserve to be reread. Just for the record the waves were 2~2 1/2' short typical Bay chop. A guy could really get really spoiled with all that long wave period stuff Doug has available at his doorstep, eh? ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Lesson #1 - Can't roll up on one side due to the forces working > against > you? > Switch sides and make the conditions work for you. > He could have possibly hand rolled his way back up > on his off, but up wind side _that_ day. > Best example I know to have an offside roll, even a sloppy one > ;-) > Lesson #2 - There's no such thing as a 100% BOMBPROOF roll > So have a good Reentry & Roll in the repertoire and > always approach the sea with respect before it teaches you > humility>> > > Didn't read far enough ahead on your post, Vince. I see you have some > good conclusions here. It is good to realize, however (opinion time!), > that a roll to me is not a sign of failure. Coming out of your boat is. > Once you have left the security of your vessel, you have failed > miserably. You are a failure in my book if you do that. I've been a > failure in my book a couple of times! Anything that keeps you in your > cockpit after a partial or fully consummated capsize is fine, be it a > reliable roll, sculling-to-upright, ready-to-use paddle float on the > rear deck, hand-roll, throwing stick roll, or a "Back Up" Co2 rescue > device, whatever. > > The off-side roll thing can be a pain. Practice practice. Keep up some > kind of stretching regime, as that may be part of the problem. Surfing > with moderate high braces into medium sized waves on your off-side is > also a good way to develop some confidence with the off-side problem. ANOTHER NOTE FOR NOVICES STILL ON THIS THREAD - keep your elbows in fairly close if you practice this (try not to let 'em get above your shoulder) or you'll be risking quick shoulder dislocation. > Learn to turn you bow into the wind and waves, while upside down. Its > not that difficult using an extended Pawlata, and you don't need a full > 90 degree turn - just lots of lung capacity and will power. And maybe a low volume hard shell, round decked boat. Nordcapps seem to work better than Khatsalanos in this department. Or is it just me? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vince, you guys had the lovely "perfect storm" on you coast few years > ago (the movie is coming out at the end of June). Did any paddlers get > out from your area to try it out, even if in a protected basin or > whatever? I thought you were hogging all the "candy" to yourself up there in B.C., Doug. ;-) Do you know the date? If so, it would have been here on the Chesapeake Bay as opposed to the Atlantic. Geez, I thought the movie would have been based on some S. Pacific Typhoon or something, not some wimpy Atlantic Hurricane or Nor'Easter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Our club was practicing under a bridge here in Victoria a few years ago, <big snip> > I immediately tripped over, leaving myself hanging upside > down. All I remember is hitting my head on an ebb stream submerged rock > in mid channel, and coming to the surface gasping for life and air. An > instructor trainer in training rescued me, and couldn't understand why I > had wet exited in front of the students <timely snip> For shame. Our very own PW poster boy out of his boat having blown his roll. For shame. [I know, I know. Today's words I'll eat tomorrow, but in the meantime...] Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'Day, No matter how often the "good judgment" message is repeated its always worth hearing again. Certainly its kept me more or less out of trouble up to now. But I was curious whether a "roll" or "reentry and roll" in the hands of an expert represented the ultimate self rescue method, beyond which nothing else could work. it sounds as though the answer is yes. Have to say that when practising paddle float and cowboy rescues the cowboy method seemed easiest, provided the boat had a wide cockpit. The question regarding wide and narrow cockpit boats was because I've just bought a narrow cockpit boat to encourage rolling practice and better paddling technique. It would have been disconcerting to construe that even in the hands of an expert it would be less safe than a wide cockpit boat. OTOH, in my novice hands I will expect to take on less challenging conditions than when paddling the Klepper. All the best, PeterO Dave Seng wrote: >If paddling when conditions turn bad and the only shore for >miles in either direction consists of cliffs....poor trip planning - >Darwin may soon be snapping at your heels. Ulli wrote: >No matter what cockpit size, my guess is if the conditions are preventing >paddle float outrigger rescues, than the "Cowboy" bronco style rescue will >also fail and you will end up like most rodeo cowboys -in the dust (here >water). ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
snip > But I was curious whether a "roll" or "reentry and roll" in the hands > of an expert represented the ultimate self rescue method, beyond which > nothing else could work. it sounds as though the answer is yes. For me the answer is no, because there is no ultimate self rescue method. In really cold water one is probably not able to get his head under water again, or looses orientation. Under such conditions reentry and roll might fail. Best is for sure to avoid going upside down by -staying off the water if it is to rough -bracing skills -keep boat in a stable position (like cutting into waves rather than getting them broadside) If you tip over, a roll is the best and fastest way back up, but if it fails the next step IMO depends on the situation. Reads: Learn and practise a variety of self- and assisted rescue techniques. My 2 cents cheers Ulli Dr. Ulli Hoeger Dept. Physiology and Biophysics Dalhousie University Halifax, B3H4H7, Nova Scotia Canada Phone I : 902-494-2673 Fax: 902-494-1685 Phone II :902-488-6796 http://is.dal.ca/~uhoeger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ulli wrote: << A paddle float assisted roll isn't a problem at all, as long as you are somewhere, smoehow in the boat. That's the great thing about it. If you can get back under water and reenter your boat I think it is likely faster and more stable than an outrigger paddlefloat rescue. OK there is more water in the cockpit, so get a good, handfree pump.>> The "outrigger" in the name outrigger paddlefloat rescue implies that the paddle is firmly fastened to the deck of the kayak. How is a reenter and roll going to be more stable during the pumping process than an outrigger paddlefloat rescue? Not everyone is going to stick their head back under waters that already gave them an ice-cream headache when they capsized either. Peter Osman <rebyl_kayak_at_hotmail.com> wrote: >>But I was curious whether a "roll" or "reentry and roll" in the hands of an expert represented the ultimate self rescue method, beyond which nothing else could work. it sounds as though the answer is yes. Have to say that when practicing paddle float and cowboy rescues the cowboy method seemed easiest, provided the boat had a wide cockpit. The question regarding wide and narrow cockpit boats was because I've just bought a narrow cockpit boat to encourage rolling practice and better paddling technique. It would have been disconcerting to construe that even in the hands of an expert it would be less safe than a wide cockpit boat. << Yes to the "roll", no to "re-enter and roll". I would say that the hand roll (or other no paddle roll) is probably the ultimate self-rescue. You don't even need a paddle. The roll is next best and if you still have your paddle in hand why not use it (unless there is a good risk of breaking it--more likely with weak or ultra light paddles and non-expert rollers). Unless you had a good tether you wouldn't want to risk letting go of your paddle either even if you could do a hand roll. But even if you break your paddle doing a roll, the hand roll (or a float roll) might still be accomplished without exiting the kayak first. IMHO, next best after the Eskimo roll is the float roll. You don't need a paddle but do need a float handy that you can get to and hold out to the side quickly. No pumping required afterward (given a reasonable kayak and spraydeck anyhow). (I thought Rob Cookson did a good job of elaborating on float rolls, earlier.) Anything else that gets you upright and keeps you in the kayak the whole time I'd put in this first group. Eskimo bow and side rescues might be included here (in a non-solo category) but unless the victim and rescuer are well practiced at this and can signal to each other when to attempt this rescue (so as not to interfere with rolling attempts) these rescues to are more likely to be relegated to the next class down (in the re-enter and... and non-solo categories). In this next class down are solo rescues initiated after you have already bailed out of the kayak. These are a major step down because in addition to getting upright you must also get back in the kayak and usually the water must be gotten out of the kayak as well. With these rescues the majority if not all of your body will spend more time in the (likely) very cold water. As a self-rescue the cowboy rescue doesn't require putting the head back underwater as the re-enter and roll does but it does require a longer (not necessarily wider) cockpit so that the butt can enter first and the legs can easily follow. If the legs have to go in first the cowboy is unlikely to succeed because of the high center of gravity and the free water in the kayak destabilizing it. Re-entering and rolling still can work with a short cockpit (provided you have a reliable roll and something hasn't happened that prevents rolling--the question is: "Why did your roll fail a few seconds ago when it should have been much easier than it will be now that you have to hold your breath during the time you get in the kayak and set up before even starting to roll"). Both re-enter and roll and cowboy rescues require good balance, practice and skill (and maybe an electric or foot pump) in anything but calm water. The outrigger paddlefloat requires an extra piece of equipment (the float) and a place to fasten the paddle to the deck. If those are present it is easier to learn and do than the cowboy or re-enter and roll. Your head can stay out of the water and it is much less likely to end up in a recapsize once back upright. The pumping period, which to my mind, is the major obstacle to overcome after getting back in and upright, is much easier when the kayak is stabilized by the outrigger (except in breakers). Unlike the cowboy rescue it can also be done into any cockpit you can get yourself into from a dock. Even if the fastening points are missing it is still superior to the others because it still requires less skill to succeed and the float on the paddle (rather than constant sculling braces) can be used to help stabilize the kayak during the pumping process. Of course using a paddlefloat will also improve the reliability of a re-enter and roll and the cowboy rescue too, but fastening the paddle as an outrigger allows much more freedom of motion, dexterity and security during the bailing process. I have real trouble seeing how anyone decides to forgo carrying some kind of float when having one might make living (as opposed to dying) so much easier. The argument that re-entering and rolling is a better rescue seems absurd here, even if it were true. Why not also have a back-up to your re-enter and roll. Shoulder dislocations are not unheard of events during a roll. What are you going to do if that happens while solo. Whatever it is, it will likely be with one arm and one hand. I'll bet if you are reasonably capable, and had to, you could still pull off a re-enter and float roll or an outrigger paddlefloat rescue. It might hurt a lot more than death by hypothermia though. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Matt and All, Thanks for the great post. I think Matt gave an excellent and balanced overview of rescues and his order of preference to which I would like to add a couple of comments. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Matt Broze <Huge snip of some good stuff> > IMHO, next > best after > the Eskimo roll is the float roll. You don't need a paddle but do need a > float handy that you can get to and hold out to the side quickly. > No pumping > required afterward (given a reasonable kayak and spraydeck anyhow). (I > thought Rob Cookson did a good job of elaborating on float rolls, > earlier.) Don't remember doing that (at least recently) so you may be giving me credit for someone else's fine work. > Anything else that gets you upright and keeps you in the kayak the whole > time I'd put in this first group. Eskimo bow and side rescues might be > included here (in a non-solo category) but unless the victim and > rescuer are > well practiced at this and can signal to each other when to attempt this > rescue (so as not to interfere with rolling attempts) these rescues to are > more likely to be relegated to the next class down (in the re-enter and... > and non-solo categories). I've used Eskimo rescues successfully in rivers or in classes when students were aware of the rescue and knew there would be someone close by. This is about the only time I find them valuable. They are great for teaching hang time and composure. Using this method I once had a student (Greg P. if you're reading I'm talking about you) give a most impressive display of patience and lung power by hanging upside down and waving his arms for about 40 seconds until someone got to him in Deception pass. In a non instructional rough water paddling scenario I would doubt that I would be able to get to a capsized paddler in time for this to be effective. Generally in rough water I'm more than a few seconds away from the people I'm paddling with. <more Snippage> > I have real trouble seeing how anyone decides to forgo carrying > some kind of > float when having one might make living (as opposed to dying) so much > easier. I couldn't possibly agree more. Every instructor has a few jokes to exemplify their strengths and justify their weakness'. I consider myself a pretty good roller and an ok paddle float rescuer. So my lame paddle float witticism is that I would much rather die of exhaustion trying to get back in to my boat with a paddle float than die wondering if I could if I had one. I always carry one. >The argument that re-entering and rolling is a better rescue seems > absurd here, even if it were true. Why not also have a back-up to your > re-enter and roll. Shoulder dislocations are not unheard of > events during a > roll. >What are you going to do if that happens while solo. Whatever it is, > it will likely be with one arm and one hand. I'll bet if you are > reasonably > capable, and had to, you could still pull off a re-enter and float roll or > an outrigger paddle float rescue. It might hurt a lot more than death by > hypothermia though. My order of preference for rescues is as follows. Roll If Swimming and there is no reason why another roll attempt would fail re-enter and roll. The reason I choose this is that I have better rolling skills than re-entry skills. If that fails paddle float rescue. I have a lot of faith in my roll. I practice it often and have used it under fire in white water and while surfing. It has been ultra reliable, I have only had a handful of swims in the last decaden and those have all been out of white water boats. If I was as good with a paddlefloat rescue as Matt is, my order of preference might change. We tend to be good at what we practice and for me that has been the roll. Understand that for me this is all hypothetical. I've never accidentally capsized my sea kayak while touring. I have of course capsized surfing, and once I got munched by an big seamy eddy line in Deception pass (roll worked just fine). But I expect that sort of thing while screwing around. I have heard others mention it in this thread, but I'll toss it out here too. If I'm touring and the weather is so nasty that I think I'm likely to need my roll, I'll brew another pot of coffee and hang out on the beach. I love being stormbound. Whatever rescues you are relying on, practice them often and in a variety of conditions (make sure you know how to do this safely). Whether it's a roll, a cowboy or a paddle float, If you're gonna bet your butt on it you better practice more than once a year in a pool and have a good plan B. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson 3 Hats Design INTERNET PRINT ILLUSTRATION 5201 15 Ave NW Suite 220 Seattle, WA 98107 206.851.8202 direct line 206.784.1641 main office phone 206.784.2231 main office fax mailto:rob_at_3hats.com http://www.3hats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: (I thought Rob Cookson did a good job of elaborating on float rolls, earlier.) Rob wrote: Don't remember doing that (at least recently) so you may be giving me credit for someone else's fine work. Sorry about that, Rob has said so much lately that I'm in strong agreement with I thought it must be him. I'm on the digest so it gets tedious trying to find things again to quote or check facts. And I don't want to answer as I read because often someone else does a fine job of giving the exact answer I wanted to write and saves me the effort. Searching back in the digests I think what I was probably remembering was Doug Lloyd writing: >It is good to realize, however (opinion time!), > that a roll to me is not a sign of failure. Coming out of your boat is. > Once you have left the security of your vessel, you have failed > miserably. You are a failure in my book if you do that. I've been a > failure in my book a couple of times! Anything that keeps you in your > cockpit after a partial or fully consummated capsize is fine, be it a > reliable roll, sculling-to-upright, ready-to-use paddle float on the > rear deck, hand-roll, throwing stick roll, or a "Back Up" Co2 rescue > device, whatever. Sorry Doug (and the others I misinformed) Rob wrote: > My order of preference for rescues is as follows. > > Roll > > If Swimming and there is no reason why another roll attempt would fail > re-enter and roll. > > The reason I choose this is that I have better rolling skills > than re-entry > skills. > > If that fails paddle float rescue. > > I have a lot of faith in my roll. I practice it often and have used it > under fire in white water and while surfing. It has been ultra > reliable, I > have only had a handful of swims in the last decaden and those > have all been > out of white water boats. > > If I was as good with a paddlefloat rescue as Matt is, my order of > preference might change. We tend to be good at what we practice > and for me > that has been the roll. > > > Understand that for me this is all hypothetical. I've never accidentally > capsized my sea kayak while touring. I have of course capsized > surfing, and > once I got munched by an big seamy eddy line in Deception pass > (roll worked > just fine). But I expect that sort of thing while screwing around. > But the question is would a re-enter and roll have worked just fine. Coming from a whitewater background and after having developed pretty good bracing skills, I rarely have had to roll even when playing around in pretty rough water, storms and surf (as long as the breakers weren't too big). Therefore I'm speaking theoretically here as well. I suggest anyone wanting to compare the advantages of re-enter and roll vs. the outrigger paddlefloat rescue try them both enough to get the bugs out and then try them in some rough water. But make sure you don't stop after just getting back in the kayak and upright. When it is for real it is very likely you will need to pump out the kayak to continue on with a reasonable chance that you will not recapsize again shortly. The fixed outrigger rescue makes this boat emptying stage so much easier. After a reenter and roll you are not in the same "boat" as you are after rolling. The cockpit is flooded and most likely you also weren't able to reattach the spraydeck upside down (if you even tried) before running low on oxygen and rolling up. Reattaching the spraydeck and pumping using a hand pump are so much easier in a stabilized kayak where you can use both hands and don't have to keep bracing with the paddle. A foot pump or electric pump will help the re-entry and roller some here, but my own experience with foot pumps has been the introduction of leg cramps into the rescue equation. I have seen several electric pumps that failed and would at least want to have a hand pump (and the ability to also stabilize the boat for pumping) as a back up to an electric pump. If you do this comparison. Time both methods to the point where your pump is sucking more air than water and let us all know the results. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze said: Oh heck, snip what he said. Matt's recent point about the Reenter and Roll vs the Paddle Float was right on. Probably the Ozzies do so well with the R&R because of the wide use of electric pumps. What about skirt reattachment, someone might ask, as far as those down-under guys who come back up so easy with the R&R...well, Mr Carter's answer is to be able to paddle a boat partially swamped without the skirt reattached after the self rescue. Hey, I'm a fan of that, fan of all the rescue techniques actually, and practice them all, picking and choosing and practicing what I like and works for me and my particular craft. However, get a couple of hundred sea kayakers together at a symposium here in the Pacific Northwest, and try to tell them to develop a rescue that doesn't entail the reattachment of their spray skirt while they paddle off into the sunset, and, well, you would get laughed off the beach! Sorry Peter Carter, but we do like our Paddle Floats up here. Matt's designation of a Paddlefloat "outrigger" (one that is securely attached but easily removed) as the necessary factor toward success is one I concur with wholeheartedly, if conditions and circumstances indicate that over a non-secured PF rescue. But, there may be times when I need back in pronto, and the R&R can't be beat. As Peter knows, you have your paddle in hand, get out of danger fast, then you can, once out of danger, do whatever you need to do to pump, (even attatch a PF after the fact), or get back out the boat if you need to and have the thermal protection, whatever. If danger still abounds, paddle out to sea, get some sea room, and do what you have to do. Whatever you do, _don't_ be bound by fanatical favorites of just one person or geographical location. Learn and practice the best from "all" worlds. As always, proponents of a particular rescue strategy who shout the loudest, also usually best articulate their particular position best, and I'm starting to recognize this as a good thing in the sport, 'cause then you get good, readily accessible information from a point source, and you can then pick and choose the ideas and parts of the techniques you like. Errr, we will leave sp*ns*n man out of this idea , however. :-) Hope this all makes some sense -- it's late and I'm tired, so don't flame me Matt. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (just a rambling man, whose been out on the edge -- due to poor judgement -- and has had to use some of these rescues for real, not just in cyber land) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Doug and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Doug Lloyd Doug said a bunch of good stuff but I snipped all but one meager sentence. > Whatever you do, _don't_ be > bound by fanatical favorites of just one person or geographical > location. Learn and practice the best from "all" worlds. Man do I love to hear this. Don't get me wrong I'm stubborn and opinionated (gee, who would have guessed?) but I try to impress this upon students. I teach what I have found to be the methods that work the best for me and that I have seen work for others in a variety of conditions. I strongly encourage students to learn all of the rescue methods they can and then pick and choose from the great rescue technique buffet. The most important survival skill is attitude. Will to survive. Will to survive and flexibility will take you a long ways in bad situations. Keep trying to solve the problem until you do. Never give up or doubt that a rescue will be successful. Complacency kills. Be creative, experiment, have fun with rescue practice. I had the privilege of doing some training for a Special Forces Maritime Ops team once. These guys were a blast and it was because of their attitude. Not accomplishing a task simply wasn't a part of their comprehension. If the goal was x then x was going to be achieved. This is the attitude all paddlers need when it comes to rescues. I knew I was going to have fun with these guys from the beginning. The first thing their captain said to me was "you can't drown these guys no matter what you do" yahhoo, playtime! The weather cooperated perfectly and we had a day with steady 40 not winds with gusts over 60. The wind was so strong that it was blowing Kleppers with some gear in them (not much) down the beach if they weren't staked down. Anyway,it was fun but I'm once again rambling off topic. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Cookson wrote: > Hi Doug and All, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Doug Lloyd > > Doug said a bunch of good stuff but I snipped all but one meager sentence. > > > Whatever you do, _don't_ be > > bound by fanatical favorites of just one person or geographical > > location. Learn and practice the best from "all" worlds. > > Man do I love to hear this. Don't get me wrong I'm stubborn and opinionated > (gee, who would have guessed?) but I try to impress this upon students. I > teach what I have found to be the methods that work the best for me and that > I have seen work for others in a variety of conditions. I strongly > encourage students to learn all of the rescue methods they can and then pick > and choose from the great rescue technique buffet. I hope you don't think I was being derogatory toward experts (and amateurs alike) who hold dearly to a particular rescue strategy belief or some other form of fundamentalism with respect to kayak technique or gear. I was simply saying these people are information saturated, and are a great resource to us all. I do know in my heart that adherence to any kind of fundamentalism, whether religious, scientific, or in the sports end of things, just doesn't make sense anymore. The world, and life, is so complex, complicated and eclectic, that it just doesn't seem mature and wise to hold stubbornly to a particular belief. Guess that _does_ sound derogatory to the fundamentalists :-) But the flip side is people who do, can challenge us as well as supply us with information to help us develop our own world views about things. > > > The most important survival skill is attitude. Will to survive. Will to > survive and flexibility will take you a long ways in bad situations. Keep > trying to solve the problem until you do. Never give up or doubt that a > rescue will be successful. Complacency kills. Be creative, experiment, > have fun with rescue practice. Right on! Of course, the survival skills most suited to the sport of sea kayaking (and other paddlesports, mountain climbing, etc.) is the ability to think ahead and stay out of trouble in the first place -- standard caveat, but always worth repeating). Now, if you do get into trouble, a survival attitude is what is going to see you through if the situation turns sour. You have touched on a very salient point here Rob, and one that a lot of novices need to remember as they progress to intermediate levels and perhaps take on more risk. If you do get into trouble, especially while solo, not only don't give up, you must more precisely, keep trying and think outside of the box. Yes, this is an over used expression, but it is true. Some examples: 1. Cell phone packed away in hatch? Well, take it out. So it gets wrecked after a minute, who cares, call for help while you can. 2. Last flare gone? Another vessel still in the area? Well, can you get to your stove, maybe light it and burn some rubber for a smoke signal? 3. Can't keep the bow into the waves for skirt reattachment during a paddlefloat fixed outrigger rescue? Use that spare paddle still on your back deck. 4. Water too cold for a reentry and roll? Do a side scoop solo rescue. No paddlefloat? Do a side scoop and maybe take your PFD off, and extend it outward in your arms then thrust down to get you back up and in. 5. Just can't get back in? Get on the back deck, near the stern, feet out in the water for stability, with you lying on the back deck. Start paddling. You need to arch your back a bit, but progress is possible. I do this on club paddles in choppy water, and try to race fellow paddlers to shore (They usually win, as they are in their boats sitting normal). It does work though, in a pinch. 6. Paddlefloat blew away in the wind? Get a gear bag out of your easiest to open hatch and tie it on or whatever. 7. Shoulder dislocated, your in the kayak, and you can't use your paddle? Use half the spare if you can get it, or use half your take apart. Use it like a canoe paddle, the one end locked into the bad arms fist, the other arm doing a "J" stroke to keep you tracking. Those are just a few examples, as poor as they are (though I have practiced some of them). The point is, as Rob says, keep trying, don't doubt. And don't panic. Mostly, don't become complacent. You can get to the point where you are just too tired, to cold, and too frustrated. Some people just plain give up too early. You may have been only just moments away from a solution. I know from my Trial Island incident, everything that could go wrong did go wrong (though I did have flares, etc., I declined their use for personal reasons that fall in line with the nature of extreme paddling premeditation). I just moved from one rescue strategy to the next back-up method. The sea poked holes in every one. The frustration I felt when I finally managed to get back in, only to have my seat dislodge against the foot pump, was intense. I was near functional loss from hypothermia, yet channeled that anger into determination to paddle fully swamped, knowing it was the only way to generate heat enough to keep me from summoning help. Perhaps not the best example either (given I had flares, etc), but this certainly would have been the situation had I been in a remote are with no option of help being available. Anyway, I'll snip the rest of Rob's excellent post, and just close and concur with Rob once again, and add: next time you are out paddling, perhaps alone, concentrating on your every sudden intention with the paddle, bracing like hell to stay upright, while waves that have too much water in them come hurtling toward you, and finally get the best of you only to leave you sitting beside your boat in the sinister shadow of a huge surging swell while the sun sinks in the distance, remember what your mother always said: Attitude! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Doug and All, <Much Snippage throughout> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Doug Lloyd > > Rob Cookson wrote: > > > Hi Doug and All, > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Doug Lloyd > > > > Doug said a bunch of good stuff but I snipped all but one > meager sentence. > > > > > Whatever you do, _don't_ be > > > bound by fanatical favorites of just one person or geographical > > > location. Learn and practice the best from "all" worlds. Rob Said: > > > > Man do I love to hear this. Don't get me wrong I'm stubborn > and opinionated > > (gee, who would have guessed?) but I try to impress this upon > students. I > > teach what I have found to be the methods that work the best > for me and that > > I have seen work for others in a variety of conditions. I strongly > > encourage students to learn all of the rescue methods they can > and then pick > > and choose from the great rescue technique buffet. > Doug Said: > I hope you don't think I was being derogatory toward experts (and amateurs > alike) who hold dearly to a particular rescue strategy belief or > some other form > of fundamentalism with respect to kayak technique or gear. I was > simply saying > these people are information saturated, and are a great resource > to us all. Nope, I meant "I love to hear this" quite literally. I agree wholeheartedly. Or to be blunt: Dogma Sucks. Learn as many techniques from as many people as you can. Be open minded. > I do > know in my heart that adherence to any kind of fundamentalism, whether > religious, scientific, or in the sports end of things, just > doesn't make sense > anymore. The world, and life, is so complex, complicated and > eclectic, that it > just doesn't seem mature and wise to hold stubbornly to a > particular belief. > Guess that _does_ sound derogatory to the fundamentalists :-) > But the flip side > is people who do, can challenge us as well as supply us with > information to help > us develop our own world views about things. Radicals make the world go round. From a practical side would you want to take lessons from an instructor who thought his techniques might maybe possibly kinda work sometimes? Or how about buying a boat from a designer that thought his boats were OK or average. I can see Matt's new ad in Sea Kayaker: "Mariner simply mediocre, the choice of apathetic paddlers everywhere". (can't wait to see that snipped and left to stand alone out of context) <MORE SNIPPAGE> > The point is, as Rob says, keep trying, don't doubt. > And don't panic. > Mostly, don't become complacent. You can get to the point where > you are just too > tired, to cold, and too frustrated. Some people just plain give > up too early. > You may have been only just moments away from a solution. Ok here's an example. I was leading a tour in relatively sheltered conditions and in good weather, light to gentle breeze, warm, sunny, wind waves about 1'. As we passed a small ledge the mild current was enough to make the waves stand up ever so slightly (we're talking tiny here folks). The clients are having fun as 1' waves are big excitement to many new paddlers. I notice one top heavy gentleman lifting his paddle over his head every time a wave approaches him from behind. I scoot over and suggest that he simply keep paddling forward when this happens and he won't feel as tippy. Few minutes later, sploosh. My assistant guide is close and moves in for the rescue and I grab the rest of the group and tuck them behind a ledge and then head out to assist. He's been in 50 degree water for maybe 2 or 3 minutes. I'm surprised that he isn't back in the boat yet. I take over the rescue and go for the standard guide rescue (swim onto the stern). One feeble attempt, no he says, I can't do that, come on try again, nope I can't, I can't do it. OK, British style between the boats head back feet into the cockpit (I'm not a huge fan of this one personally) feeble attempt, Nope he says, can't do that. OK, out with the sling, paddle under the boat, step in and up. One more feeble attempt, nope can't do that. At this point he's been in the water maybe a little under 10 min and I'm concerned. I said "I think you better try again only harder". He did and he got in. I put him in my dry clothes and took him to a beach and got him warmed back up (hot chocolate etc.) he really wasn't that cold, mild shivers, minor loss of dexterity, etc To his advantage he was toting around a good 50 pounds or more of spare insulation (remember that next time someone tells you not to eat that donut). I'm familiar with the complacency that comes from hypothermia and this wasn't it. This guy just didn't have a "can do" attitude. Now I don't know just what he thought his options were, but I'll tell you if I'm in the cold water and someone is trying to help me back into a boat I'm going to approach the task with gusto and enthusiasm. He didn't seem to feel any responsibility for his safety at all. Very strange. Take an interest in your safety. Be aggressive and if you feel yourself getting cold, think fast, pick the best strategy you can, make it a mantra and don't let go of that thought no matter what. I once spent a very long half hour chanting swim to the beach, swim to the beach, but that's another story. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Snip Snip Snip Rob: I enjoy your posts and thought I would share this with you all. Definition of Radical: "Someone who has re-doubled their effort after loosing sight of their objective." Author Unknown Opinionated maybe! Radical -NOT! Fred At 11:55 AM 6/1/2000 -0700, Rob Cookson wrote: >Hi Doug and All, > > >Radicals make the world go round. > >Cheers, > >-- >Rob Cookson >"I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the >Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, >1787. > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 07:18:56 +0930 Peter Carter said: <<I agree with Matt too. Whatever rescue method you use, a minimum volume cockpit and a hands free pump allow you to concentrate on paddling, even with a completely swamped cockpit, not fiddle about with spraycovers, etc., etc. (I know of some Aus paddlers who don't use spraycovers at all. There are times when I use one only to prevent sunburn.)<< Sounds almost like a washdeck kayak philosophy, in term of what the Tsunami Rangers use to avoid the dreaded "have to bail the cockpit now" conundrum - don't have cockpits. You almost have the same thing. This minimum volume thing is one of my "ultimate" backup strategies, one I came to a conclusion about a few years ago after talking with Paul Caffynn, after he told me about how the Tasmanian guys set their boats up. <<I think some manufacturers ought to think about how their boats behave when swamped: are they easily controlled, or are paddlers at the mercy of free surface effects?<< Some of the doubles are so bad around here, that water sloshing about inside will blow the bulkheads out. Not good. >>The sea sock that some have been describing is one way to do it for the folding boats, although as some have posted, they can be uncomfortable. For the others, bulkheads closely spaced, and buoyancy material in any unused space, especially along the sides. The less the volume, the less the water, the less the effect on stability, the less to pump...>> Yeap, just make sure wet exits are not hindered with too much material being built up. >... Sorry Peter Carter, but we do like our Paddle Floats up here. >>I had noticed. Idle thought: Would a kayak be more stable with a ballasted keel than an outrigger float? After all, deep keel yachts are self righting, multihulls are not.>> Just one last note on the Reentry and Roll: Some say it is too difficult to do in a cold sea, and that is why the Ozzies can get away with it, as it tends to be a bit warmer in your geographical locality. Yet, the R&R is popular in the UK, which is anything but warm. Funny, isn't it? As far as paddlefloats, yes Peter, they can work in the right circumstances, but you can also bust paddles using them at any time, potentially. They do give you a lot of stability, correctly deployed and used in the parameters they were designed for. I would like to thank you for your letter to SK magazine awhile back supporting your contentions. Maybe a few paddlers up here took notice. Keep up the good fight. As for ballasted keels? That's kind of a weighty subject. BC'in Ya Doug LLoyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, Thanks for your message. To respond... >>There >are times when I use one only to prevent sunburn.)<< > >Sounds almost like a washdeck kayak philosophy, in term of what the >Tsunami Rangers use to avoid the dreaded "have to bail the cockpit now" >conundrum - don't have cockpits. You almost have the same thing... Almost, but we still have the protection against cold, wind, etc. that a deck offers, as well as chart table, and so on. I did experiment with an open cockpit Voyager. Very wet, and without belt or thigh braces when I braced into a wave I stopped and the boat kept moving. >... This >minimum volume thing is one of my "ultimate" backup strategies, one I >came to a conclusion about a few years ago after talking with Paul >Caffynn, after he told me about how the Tasmanian guys set their boats >up. I built a number of boats with the Tas side bulkhead system. Very effective, easy to make, since the bulkheads are all flat shapes, and they also stiffen the boat in the cockpit area. Long lengths of join, though. Years ago (late 70s) Alan Byde sent me one of his 'pods' cut into little pieces: a 3D jigsaw puzzle. I've changed the seat area completely, and it's now the only form of cockpit I build. (Details of Voyager internals are at <users.senet.com.au/~pcarter/voyager.html> and I've added a new diagram.) Gives a much better internal finish, as well as being lower volume. Being a complex shape, it does take longer to develop, and putting everything together can be interesting, which is probably why manufacturers avoid it. Paul Caffyn and his colleagues developed what amounts to the aft end of this idea, putting the seat and aft bulkhead together, as in the Arctic Raider. Still full width ahead of the seat, though. >Some of the doubles are so bad around here, that water sloshing about >inside will blow the bulkheads out. Not good. Definitely not. There was (still is?) a commercial double here which had only two bulkheads: the whole cockpit area was one compartment. One I saw had two high-capacity electric pumps, and I doubt whether they would really cope. >Just one last note on the Reentry and Roll: Some say it is too difficult >to do in a cold sea, and that is why the Ozzies can get away with it, as >it tends to be a bit warmer in your geographical locality. Yet, the R&R >is popular in the UK, which is anything but warm. Funny, isn't it? I think our Tasmanian waters could be as cold in winter as the UK (I've paddled in Tas only in summer). I think it's a case of attitude: caution, skill, using the minimum of (well designed) equipment. >I would like to thank you for your letter to SK magazine awhile back >supporting your contentions. Maybe a few paddlers up here took notice. I had several messages from people in N America, so the letter stirred some thinking, as intended. >Keep up the good fight. As for ballasted keels? That's kind of a weighty >subject. Thanks. An interesting subject though. I have my eye on a couple of diving weights. Cheers, Peter pcarter_at_acslink.net.au allegedly <www.acslink.net.au/~pcarter> temporarily <users.senet.com.au/~pcarter> 34deg 55' 24.1" S 138deg 32' 9.8" E (GDA-94) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: Now there's something I hadn't thought about. After a Rentry and Roll in surf conditions, I've been so unstable with water sloshing about, I've been an easy knock down. Perhaps this is a strategy to minimize that?? Any other possible solutions?? Robert > From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_telus.net> > Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 12:46:46 -0700 > > Learn to turn you bow into the wind and waves, while upside down. Its > not that difficult using an extended Pawlata, and you don't need a full > 90 degree turn - just lots of lung capacity and will power. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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