I am making a sea kayak tow line and have been unable to find a source for 3/16th braided solid core polypropylene line. I may be describing this wrong but I think this type line is what Kokatat uses in their relatively small PFD tow setup that uses the "winder" tool. Anyone have a source for such line? Bill McKenzie wamckenz_at_gte.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bill - I'm no authority in this but 3/16 is really thin. Any force at all and 3/16 line will cut into flesh. I keep a 25 foot piece of 3/16 line in my PFD pocket for quick tows and for dock tie up and emergency use, but for real towing I think I would look for something a size or two bigger. jerry. At 10:04 PM 06/21/2000 -0700, Bill McKenzie wrote: >I am making a sea kayak tow line and have been unable to find a source for >3/16th braided solid core polypropylene line. I may be describing this >wrong but I think this type line is what Kokatat uses in their relatively >small PFD tow setup that uses the "winder" tool. > >Anyone have a source for such line? > >Bill McKenzie >wamckenz_at_gte.net > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would like to thank folks for all the back channel input. A manufacturer is now sending me a sample of what they call their 3/16th "solid braid multi-filament polypropylene (SBMP)". Minimum order is 2,000 feet. I do not yet know the rated strength of the line. Remember that my purpose for the line is towing sea kayaks only and I want it to float. To keep it a compact tow system, I am sacrificing its use as a throw bag or, potential use for such things as unwrapping a stuck boat. The line is not for gripping with your hands and I suspect my deck fittings (even with good backing) may not handle much over 5 or 600 pounds. (Anyone actually had a deck fitting get pulled off when towing in large seas or tested the strength of their fittings?) If the sample line I receive appears as good as the Kokatat tow line (size, strength, pliability) I will let everyone know the details of the deal as it "sounds" pretty good right now. Bill McKenzie wamckenz_at_gte.net -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Hawkins [mailto:jhawkins_at_cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 9:29 AM To: Bill McKenzie; Paddlewise List Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The perfect tow line Bill - I'm no authority in this but 3/16 is really thin. Any force at all and 3/16 line will cut into flesh. I keep a 25 foot piece of 3/16 line in my PFD pocket for quick tows and for dock tie up and emergency use, but for real towing I think I would look for something a size or two bigger. jerry. At 10:04 PM 06/21/2000 -0700, Bill McKenzie wrote: >I am making a sea kayak tow line and have been unable to find a source for >3/16th braided solid core polypropylene line. I may be describing this >wrong but I think this type line is what Kokatat uses in their relatively >small PFD tow setup that uses the "winder" tool. > >Anyone have a source for such line? > >Bill McKenzie >wamckenz_at_gte.net > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Bill, I made a tow belt system with the ability of a throw line, pretty compact considering it has 48'(with shock cord) and a 15' lines attached. I don't know if it helps, but pictures are at: http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR/022400.htm Please let us know your thoughts about the rope- I used a water ski tow line which floats well, doesn't seem to tangle and is readily visible. Also cheap. The whole belt also floats and is quick release. Always looking for something better. Bill McKenzie wrote: > > I would like to thank folks for all the back channel input. A manufacturer > is now sending me a sample of what they call their 3/16th "solid braid > multi-filament polypropylene (SBMP)". Minimum order is 2,000 feet. I do > not yet know the rated strength of the line. Remember that my purpose for > the line is towing sea kayaks only and I want it to float. To keep it a > compact tow system, I am sacrificing its use as a throw bag or, potential > use for such things as unwrapping a stuck boat. The line is not for > gripping with your hands and I suspect my deck fittings (even with good > backing) may not handle much over 5 or 600 pounds. (Anyone actually had a > deck fitting get pulled off when towing in large seas or tested the strength > of their fittings?) > > If the sample line I receive appears as good as the Kokatat tow line (size, > strength, pliability) I will let everyone know the details of the deal as it > "sounds" pretty good right now. > > Bill McKenzie > wamckenz_at_gte.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Hawkins [mailto:jhawkins_at_cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 9:29 AM > To: Bill McKenzie; Paddlewise List > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The perfect tow line > > Bill - > I'm no authority in this but 3/16 is really thin. Any force at all and 3/16 > line will cut into flesh. I keep a 25 foot piece of 3/16 line in my PFD > pocket for quick tows and for dock tie up and emergency use, but for real > towing I think I would look for something a size or two bigger. > > jerry. > > At 10:04 PM 06/21/2000 -0700, Bill McKenzie wrote: > >I am making a sea kayak tow line and have been unable to find a source for > >3/16th braided solid core polypropylene line. I may be describing this > >wrong but I think this type line is what Kokatat uses in their relatively > >small PFD tow setup that uses the "winder" tool. > > > >Anyone have a source for such line? > > > >Bill McKenzie > >wamckenz_at_gte.net > > > > > >*************************************************************************** > >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and > not > >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > >*************************************************************************** > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** -- : : Gabriel L Romeu : http://studiofurniture.com furniture from the workshop : http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR life as a tourist, daily journal : http://users.aol.com/romeugp paintings, photographs, etchings, objects *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gabriel: I admire your handiwork on the towline. Having a long and short line seems pretty versatile. I had a more primitive, but serviceable belt mounted towline until recently, until hearing tales of a tough tow on a long crossing in gathering bad weather. These reports made it clear that a bungy shock absorber is important to reduce impact when the tow line firstly gathers slack when the towed boat surfs closer, then twangs tight when the towing boats surfs away in rough water. I haven't used a towline in big swells, but the ability to pass the tow belt to another paddler, in my mind, now takes second place to avoiding strain on the tower. I have now mounted the tow bag on a deck fitting centrally behind the cockpit. Have you had any problem with hard forces exerted on your waist with this system? Regards, Peter Treby 37° 42' S 145° 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Peter, Haven't gone through the tests yet Peter, but will soon and report back. There is a 3 ft long bungie shock cord (4th photo)which I presume will work. We will see. Peter Treby wrote: > > Gabriel: > I admire your handiwork on the towline. Having a long and short line seems > pretty versatile. > I had a more primitive, but serviceable belt mounted towline until recently, > until hearing tales of a tough tow on a long crossing in gathering bad > weather. These reports made it clear that a bungy shock absorber is > important to reduce impact when the tow line firstly gathers slack when the > towed boat surfs closer, then twangs tight when the towing boats surfs away > in rough water. I haven't used a towline in big swells, but the ability to > pass the tow belt to another paddler, in my mind, now takes second place to > avoiding strain on the tower. I have now mounted the tow bag on a deck > fitting centrally behind the cockpit. > Have you had any problem with hard forces exerted on your waist with this > system? > > Regards, > Peter Treby -- Gabriel L Romeu http://studiofurniture.com ------------------> furniture http://users.aol.com/romeugp ------------------> paintings, prints, photos and stuff http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR -----------> A Daily Journal of Observations *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/23/00 10:31:56 AM, wamckenz_at_gte.net writes: << (even with good backing) may not handle much over 5 or 600 pounds. (Anyone actually had a deck fitting get pulled off when towing in large seas or tested the strength of their fittings?) If the sample line I receive appears as good as the Kokatat tow line (size, strength, pliability) I will let everyone know the details of the deal as it "sounds" pretty good right now. >> How much of a jerk can your boat take? I suspect that if I had 500 pound of grab on my boat I'd be really interested in my roll. I think I'd rather, for a tow line, that it to break than to pull me over. It is kind of like letting your fishing line break to keep from loosing the rod and reel. Got to look at the ups and downs of strength. Joan Spinner * * * Paddling on the Chesapeake Bay watershed-a red, CD Breeze and a yellow/white CD Gulfstream *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bill McKenzie" <wamckenz_at_gte.net> wrote: >> A manufacturer is now sending me a sample of what they call their 3/16th "solid braid multi-filament polypropylene (SBMP)". Minimum order is 2,000 feet. I do not yet know the rated strength of the line. Remember that my purpose for the line is towing sea kayaks only and I want it to float. To keep it a compact tow system, I am sacrificing its use as a throw bag or, potential use for such things as unwrapping a stuck boat. The line is not for gripping with your hands and I suspect my deck fittings (even with good backing) may not handle much over 5 or 600 pounds. (Anyone actually had a deck fitting get pulled off when towing in large seas or tested the strength of their fittings?)<< Back in 1980, when faced with the same problem, I too wanted to find a tow line that floated and managed to find a source for 3/16 solid braided polypropylene. (much smoother, knots better and less abrasive than the thicker strand stuff--like water-ski tow line). I ordered the--then minimum--1000 feet of it. I thought it would solve my problem but, reality soon raised its ugly head. While this line looked and knotted much like nylon solid braid (that we now use for towlines) it had some major disadvantages for use as towing line. It didn't have much stretch so, unlike with the nylon, a heavy shock cord would be a necessity to provide shock absorbsion. Poly was not nearly as strong as the nylon and it frayed and wore much more quickly as well. Friction would melt it easier too. The crowning disappointment was that while the line itself floated even several thicknesses of it would not also be enough to float even the small nylon jib snap that I wanted to have on the business end of the towline for one-handed convenience. This meant that I would still not be able to retrieve the short (floating) bow line from the cockpit with out still putting a small float near the jib snap to keep it on the surface. (no problem with the longer stern line that hooks in front of the cockpit--I simply back up and pluck it out of the water beside me. Well, if I was going to have to do put a float on it anyhow what advantages were there? None, the nylon's superior strength, wear characteristics and stretchiness (no bungee needed for shock absorbsion on a 3/16 line only 12 to 15 feet long) was a much better towline. It took me years to use up the rest of that 1000' poly roll for tying bundles and odd jobs. Save your money. The smooth nylon solid braid in 3/16" is what you want. Just run it through a little foam float near the business end. Smooth 3/16 nylon solid braid won't cut your hand like the more abrasive weaves (like those often used for rudder lift lines) might. Any heavier like 1/4 or 5/16 and you loose some of the shock absorbing characteristics and will probably have to futz with shock cord loops (which may make it more likely to tangle and create much more bulk to store). Thinner nylon is plenty strong for towing (but would be more likely to cut your hands). However, the major disadvantage of thinner lines is that they are also much more difficult to untangle and get unknotted. We use polyester (Dacron) solid braid that looks almost the same as nylon for deck gear lines because it doesn't stretch near as much as nylon when it gets wet. Be sure that you use nylon and not Dacron for a towline though because it is stronger and the shock absorbsion is built in. Once in about 4 foot breakers I started to try to tow a kayak that had sunk at one end using a 3/8" nylon solid braid whitewater style throwline that I had just cleated to a 5" cleat on my back deck. After the first breaker surfed me off to the end of my rope, stopping me cold, I quickly uncleated the line and held it in my hand against the paddle shaft so I could release it immediately if a breaker surfed me forward too fast. I had to circle back out and pick up the throwline several times before finally getting that kayak out of the breakers (but the cleat never got ripped out of the back deck of my kayak, so I didn't get to test just how good the backing plate would hold up and what part of the system would fail first). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt: Is your tow line an integral part of your deck line system, a waist belt or PFD system, or in a deck mounted bag? If it is part of your deck lines, we probably have several different system requirements. Bill McKenzie wamckenz_at_gte.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net] Subject: PaddleWise V1 #1142 From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The perfect tow line <snip> The crowning disappointment was that while the line itself floated even several thicknesses of it would not also be enough to float even the small nylon jib snap that I wanted to have on the business end of the towline for one-handed convenience. This meant that I would still not be able to retrieve the short (floating) bow line from the cockpit with out still putting a small float near the jib snap to keep it on the surface. (no problem with the longer stern line that hooks in front of the cockpit-I simply back up and pluck it out of the water beside me. Well, if I was going to have to do put a float on it anyhow what advantages were there? <snip> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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