Actually I agree with most of what Ralph says (below). I was still surprised he put it into print in his book. I can imagine how a landowner, upset with some kayakers, could use it in a hearing about controlling access to kayakers in his area. "Look its not just a few bad apples doing this here it is described in a well respected book on the subject.". I disagree with Ralph about supporting paddle trails organizations though. They sell the pipe dream of more camping areas but from what I have seen locally that's not what actually happens. More likely they will find all the existing camping areas and post them and charge a fee and advertise them nationally to attract paddlers from all around to their new trail. They justify these new fees by saying they need it so that new areas can be purchased or developed but I've not seen much progress here either. >>>>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:44:37 -0700 From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] Commando Camping Since I am responsible for starting this general thread I would like to make clearer my position, which was both stated and implied in my book. Here is what I practice based on my own experience and which are the tenets of the conscientious commando camper: Here is a pecking order of property I would camp on if I could not find anything legal to stop at: First, Railroad right of way property or utilities property. Abandoned factory land, wide expanses of undeveloped land, etc. are also a first choice. Your are traspassing but if your actions don't interfere with the workings of the place, then what is the harm? I would most definitely stay away from range towers and on-land bouys where your camping might interfere with its operation or be construed that way by the Coast Guard (Think I am kidding. Two guys got hit with some heavy fines when they camped on Mill Rock, a stopover spot for round-Manhattan paddlers. There is an aid to navigation there steering ships through the tricky Hell Gate area. The Coast Guard nabbed them probably for hanging their wash on the aid.) Next or on the same order as the first above, would be parkland, off in a corner somewhere or a bit of an island or isolated peninsula away from paths and roads. An amazing amount of such exists along the shores of most bodies of water. Again this is a violation but if you do no harm. If you are being sensible in your camping practices and you do get found by a ranger, your luck will likely be like mine. They will say okay. Next, if it had to be really private property, I would opt for one that seemed owned by a local AND I would most definitely ask permission regardless of what I expected they might say. Locals tend to be aware when you are around and so it is safest to ask them. I stated all of this in my book, i.e. locals being aware of you and going to ask them permission. They are also the most likely to say yes. But if they say no, then paddle on. You should not defy them. Lastly, I would opt for private property owned as vacation homes here in the East. This type of person is never going to give you permission, believe me. If that was all that was available, then I would do so without asking. This is a biased opinion of mine based on what I have seen of such landowners, Mark Lane excepted who seems most generous with his stretch of land on the Maine coast. BUT surely one of the other categories presented above would lend itself to camping and you could almost always find such before resorting to the last type. I apologize for the discussion focusing so much on the individual private owner and the question of asking permission. It is a rare occasion that I and any sensible commando camper would choose such a site. We are not out there to defy authority and property rights. We are out there to get along with our surroundings and to be as unobtrusive as we can. You would have to be pretty desperate and dog-tired or fleeing some nasty weather before being forced into the position of camping on the land owned by an individual. The real issue is that there is so little legal camping spots along some of the best paddling waters. So support water trail organizations to see to it that more spots open up. ralph diaz<<<<<<<< Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have mixed feelings about the watertrails concept. I am a member of the Maine Island Trail Association, the originator of the idea. I see the service they provide as getting permission to use private islands. These islands were probably being camped on before MITA came along, so in a sense they are just charging a fee for what people had been doing for a long time. But the ethics of commando camping at these spots was questionable. There is no ethical question about camping on a "MITA island" once MITA has negotiated the permission. The MITA guide includes public lands in its directory, but you don't need to be a MITA member to use these islands. The traffic on private and public islands has increased, but is this a result of MITA advertising or is it due to the increased popluarity of sea kayaking. If people are out kayaking anyway, isn't it better that they camp where they have permission, in a somewhat controlled manner, than sneaking in somewhere. The trail movement has concentrated the camping, and in a sense "ruined" many good campsites. But people randomly creating campsites would be damaging as well. I've paddled alot in the Stonington, Maine area, which is the nicest, best kayaking, section of the Maine Island Trail. The many islands are close together and there are several nice camping islands. I have yet to see a real crowding problem. Maybe a couple days a year there is a problem. The most powerful protection for the islands is the ocean and the skills required to paddle on it. More people get the MITA guide, read it and dream, than actually get out on the islands. The people that do get out there would probably do so anyway. MITA just lets them do it without facing the ethical problem of trespassing. Where I have problems with the Trails concept is where it gets in the way of the local's use of traditional camp sites. Now they have to deal with people from "away" telling them they can't use an island they've used for generations, just because they aren't carrying the right card. The locals often have at least implicit permission to use the island and should not be bothered by high minded outsiders. If the guide says that only card-carrying members should use the island... well let the owner enforce it. Nick At 1:57 AM -0700 7/11/00, Matt Broze wrote: >Actually I agree with most of what Ralph says (below). I was still surprised >he put it into print in his book. I can imagine how a landowner, upset with >some kayakers, could use it in a hearing about controlling access to >kayakers in his area. "Look its not just a few bad apples doing this here it >is described in a well respected book on the subject.". > >I disagree with Ralph about supporting paddle trails organizations though. >They sell the pipe dream of more camping areas but from what I have seen >locally that's not what actually happens. More likely they will find all the >existing camping areas and post them and charge a fee and advertise them >nationally to attract paddlers from all around to their new trail. They >justify these new fees by saying they need it so that new areas can be >purchased or developed but I've not seen much progress here either. > Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St, Suite I Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: >I have mixed feelings about the watertrails concept. I am a member of the >Maine Island Trail Association, the originator of the idea. I see the >service they provide as getting permission to use private islands. [snip] I agree completely with all that Nick said. I too am a supporting member of MITA, and I think they are doing good work. They aren't really "selling" anything -- the membership fee is a mere $15 or so. (They depend primarily on voluntary contributions of much larger amounts.) One of the most important things they are doing, IMO, is to promote the idea of voluntary member self-management. I suspect there has been some . . . discussion within MITA about more closely regulating island use, or requiring advance reservations, permitting, things like that. . . but these ideas have apparently been rejected in favor of voluntary self-management. I like that. People should feel more "connected" to the islands if they feel some responsibility for them. Instead of creating an "other" in the form of a regulatory or management body, to which one must "apply" for "permission" or something like that, MITA is promoting a notion that integrates its membership into the process. I think this parallels a trend within the environmental movement (or some sections of it) that would remove the conceptual "barriers" between us and our planet that have, in a sense, been created by the movement itself (for example, challenging the concept of "wilderness" as distinct from the rest of the planet, which distinction in itself may more readily allow degradation of the rest of the planet, and thus may be a harmful way of thinking. . . ). (The fascinating magazine Orion seems to be on the cutting edge of this.) I don't know that much about it at this point, but I do find it interesting, and at any rate I am pleased with MITA's philosophical stance and will continue to support the organization. I don't know anything about any other "water trail" organizations, and so can't comment on them. I did read an interesting article in a recent ACK about a water trail project through Maine lakes to New York. My biggest concern about these things is that they will result in heavier usage, and naturally I want it all to myself <g>. . . . Of course, heavier usage *can* be good, if properly done, as it brings more people closer to the earth they live on and thereby *may* help save the place. . . . Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Oops. Accidentally sent this from someone else's email (thought I had switched the computer account over to mine). This was from me, Mark Lane. Sorry. Mark > Nick Schade wrote: > > > >I have mixed feelings about the watertrails concept. I am a member of the > >Maine Island Trail Association, the originator of the idea. I see the > >service they provide as getting permission to use private islands. > [snip] > > I agree completely with all that Nick said. I too am a supporting member of > MITA, and I think they are doing good work. They aren't really "selling" > anything -- the membership fee is a mere $15 or so. (They depend primarily > on voluntary contributions of much larger amounts.) One of the most > important things they are doing, IMO, is to promote the idea of voluntary > member self-management. I suspect there has been some . . . discussion > within MITA about more closely regulating island use, or requiring advance > reservations, permitting, things like that. . . but these ideas have > apparently been rejected in favor of voluntary self-management. I like > that. People should feel more "connected" to the islands if they feel some > responsibility for them. Instead of creating an "other" in the form of a > regulatory or management body, to which one must "apply" for "permission" or > something like that, MITA is promoting a notion that integrates its > membership into the process. > > I think this parallels a trend within the environmental movement (or some > sections of it) that would remove the conceptual "barriers" between us and > our planet that have, in a sense, been created by the movement itself (for > example, challenging the concept of "wilderness" as distinct from the rest > of the planet, which distinction in itself may more readily allow > degradation of the rest of the planet, and thus may be a harmful way of > thinking. . . ). (The fascinating magazine Orion seems to be on the cutting > edge of this.) I don't know that much about it at this point, but I do find > it interesting, and at any rate I am pleased with MITA's philosophical > stance and will continue to support the organization. > > I don't know anything about any other "water trail" organizations, and so > can't comment on them. I did read an interesting article in a recent ACK > about a water trail project through Maine lakes to New York. My biggest > concern about these things is that they will result in heavier usage, and > naturally I want it all to myself <g>. . . . Of course, heavier usage > *can* be good, if properly done, as it brings more people closer to the > earth they live on and thereby *may* help save the place. . . . > > Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Maribeth Sears wrote: > > Nick Schade wrote: > > >I have mixed feelings about the watertrails concept. I am a member of the > >Maine Island Trail Association, the originator of the idea. I see the > >service they provide as getting permission to use private islands. > [snip] > > I agree completely with all that Nick said. I too am a supporting member of > MITA, and I think they are doing good work. They aren't really "selling" > anything -- the membership fee is a mere $15 or so. (They depend primarily > on voluntary contributions of much larger amounts.) One of the most > important things they are doing, IMO, is to promote the idea of **voluntary > member self-management.** [emphasis added] > I don't know anything about any other "water trail" organizations, and so > can't comment on them. I did read an interesting article in a recent ACK > about a water trail project through Maine lakes to New York. My biggest > concern about these things is that they will result in heavier usage, and > naturally I want it all to myself <g>. . . . Of course, heavier usage > *can* be good, if properly done, as it brings more people closer to the > earth they live on and thereby *may* help save the place. . . . > > Mark Sounds like MITA may have hit on a reasonable balance in its approach to trail management: "... the idea of voluntary member self management ..." As Nick mentioned [I snipped that part], when a MITA-type system begins to restrict the "locals" from their traditional haunts, resentment is inevitable. Where I live, a couple of water trails have been proposed, and a couple of sites for camping have been set up, albeit not in my county. I am frankly opposed to extending them into my neck of the woods, a little for the notoriety they bring, but mainly because most of the area paddlers would traverse **is a wildlife refuge.** Our presence on the water in large numbers is counter to accepted principles of wildlife management. Yah, sure, there are compromises inherent in water trails, but I think curmudgeon Broze (he is a 10 on the curmudgeon scale -- I'm only a 7) may be watching an example of a misdirected water trail up in Puget Sound. Or, could be that population pressures would have brought things to where they are, currently, independent of the existence of any formal water trail. For a wonderful look at their water trail, check out Joel Rogers' picture book, "Water Trail," Sasquatch Books, US$22, ISBN 1-57061-095-9 I equivocate about these things, because I can see their benefit in the face of desperate land-use conflicts and an ever-booming population of paddlers (they are the best of a compromised situation), **and** I have the "memory" of things the way they used to be ... which, of course, I can't have any more. Times change. Like Mark, "... naturally I want it all to myself. <g>" At the root, don't we all have a piece of that in our psyche? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:03 AM -0700 7/11/00, Dave Kruger wrote: >I equivocate about these things, because I can see their benefit in the >face of >desperate land-use conflicts and an ever-booming population of paddlers (they >are the best of a compromised situation), **and** I have the "memory" of >things >the way they used to be ... which, of course, I can't have any more. Times >change. Like Mark, "... naturally I want it all to myself. <g>" At the root, >don't we all have a piece of that in our psyche? "Equivocate" is a good word for my opinion on water trails. One thought that has made them look better in my eyes is that 50, 100, 200 years from now people will still be going out on the water. The population pressure will likely get worse with a resultant increase in recreational pressures. While the immediate impact may be an increase in traffic, the groundworks for long term protection of the resources are being laid by the watertrails movement. I hope the increased traffic for us today will payoff with a better experience for everyone in the long run. Let us hope that the organizers manage their responsibility well. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St, Suite I Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't profess to know much about the Maine Island Trail. I have heard Paddlewise contributor Rob Cookson does though as he was once a guide there, I believe. Are you out there Rob? Care to comment? Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Matt and All, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Matt Broze > > I don't profess to know much about the Maine Island Trail. I have heard > Paddlewise contributor Rob Cookson does though as he was once a > guide there, > I believe. Are you out there Rob? Care to comment? I think Matt is baiting me for a small rant here. Correct me if I'm wrong Matt but isn't this the first conversation we ever had? Back in '92 fresh from the east coast I wandered into Mariner looking for work (which I found later that day at PWS but that's another story) and somehow MITA came up. My opinion is just that, and what I observed is strictly anecdotal and my conclusions are simply my own. This is definitely not a politically correct or popular opinion but then again I've always thought being politically correct and popular were both overrated and better left to those running for office. Anyhow my experience is limited to the Penobscot bay area off Stonington. I'm not sure when MITA was formed but it was still in it's infancy in '88 when I began guiding full time. In those days kayaks in the bay were rare and ours was the only company leading tours and what few other kayakers we saw were usually rag-tag hippy locals (are you out there Dan Kennedy?) The Islands were for the most part in their natural state with untouched interiors and a ring of plastic trash (oilcans and such) at the high tide line. Clamming was good and since almost no one ate muscles they were plentiful too. Now in my mind MITA had good intentions and wanted to preserve a resource and help ensure access... BUT- in this area of the bay there were already lots of public Islands where access was already secure, they just weren't well known. It seemed to me that some individuals really wanted growth of MITA (I'm not going to speculate why I'll just keep assuming that they were well meaning) and that meant soliciting members. And that they did. Soon people were calling or stopping in to ask about the "trail" "how do we get to the trail, where does the trail start, how do I follow the trail". Usage went up and by people who had no business being on the water, no chart or compass, no skills etc. The bay went from totally vacant to overcrowded with MITA members at a rapid rate. MITA wanted to be environmentally friendly and encouraged members to pick up and haul out trash from the islands-and that they did, the little ring of high-tide poly disappeared. BUT- soon there were trails running into the interiors of the islands and limbs were being cut to allow room for more tents and all the driftwood was burned (I know that may seem hard for you west coasters to fathom but there isn't that much on east coast islands) and the granite was scarred with fire-rings and ewwww what was that I stepped in. Yup the islands were becoming big litter boxes. Most of the islands in Penobscot Bay have are granite with a fine duff on top and not much more, and now that was being dug up and used as shallow graves for human waste. Now you might argue that as an outfitter I was part of the problem but from my way of thinking I was teaching responsible use of the islands as well as safety. I have never kindled a fire, cut a limb or left waste human or otherwise on any of those islands. I was fortunate to have worked for a wonderful woman who had very strong island ethics and for that I'm grateful. Curiously it was probably her safety conscious practices (not renting boats etc) not to mention the loss of her best guide to the west coast, that eventually put her out of business (no need to be humble while ranting). You may think that I'm just bitter about having to share MY islands with the rest of the world and in part you would be right but on the other hand I think MITA created the very problem they were seeking to avoid. I have not kept up with them or their politics but last I knew if you wanted to build a big ole fire and squat in the bushes that was fine by them and for that I'm pissed. Anyway that's just what I think. Cheers, Rob- Who is just back from Maine and who didn't fight the hoards to camp on his favorite islands but squeezed his fat but into a tiny rodeo boat and surfed the hell out of his favorite wave in the world. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Rob, That's a nice story you told there. It serves to illustrate the problems that many small impacts can have in a cumulative sense. Some areas require a level of "tread lightly" that few wilderness campers realize, and it never hurts to hear more stories like that. If you were going to fix the problem without removing all the people, what would you do? Pit toilets on all the islands? Education about fire rings and catholes? Oh yes, and how about that wave? Has it been "discovered" like Skookumchuk? Hope you didn't have to slam dance in the eddy too much. Cheers, Kevin At 06:05 PM 7/12/00 -0700, Rob Cookson wrote: >Hi Matt and All, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Matt Broze > > > > I don't profess to know much about the Maine Island Trail. I have heard > > Paddlewise contributor Rob Cookson does though as he was once a > > guide there, > > I believe. Are you out there Rob? Care to comment? > >I think Matt is baiting me for a small rant here. Correct me if I'm wrong >Matt but isn't this the first conversation we ever had? Back in '92 fresh >from the east coast I wandered into Mariner looking for work (which I found >later that day at PWS but that's another story) and somehow MITA came up. >My opinion is just that, and what I observed is strictly anecdotal and my >conclusions are simply my own. This is definitely not a politically correct >or popular opinion but then again I've always thought being politically >correct and popular were both overrated and better left to those running for >office. Anyhow my experience is limited to the Penobscot bay area off >Stonington. > >I'm not sure when MITA was formed but it was still in it's infancy in '88 >when I began guiding full time. In those days kayaks in the bay were rare >and ours was the only company leading tours and what few other kayakers we >saw were usually rag-tag hippy locals (are you out there Dan Kennedy?) The >Islands were for the most part in their natural state with untouched >interiors and a ring of plastic trash (oilcans and such) at the high tide >line. Clamming was good and since almost no one ate muscles they were >plentiful too. > >Now in my mind MITA had good intentions and wanted to preserve a resource >and help ensure access... BUT- in this area of the bay there were already >lots of public Islands where access was already secure, they just weren't >well known. It seemed to me that some individuals really wanted growth of >MITA (I'm not going to speculate why I'll just keep assuming that they were >well meaning) and that meant soliciting members. And that they did. Soon >people were calling or stopping in to ask about the "trail" "how do we get >to the trail, where does the trail start, how do I follow the trail". Usage >went up and by people who had no business being on the water, no chart or >compass, no skills etc. The bay went from totally vacant to overcrowded >with MITA members at a rapid rate. > >MITA wanted to be environmentally friendly and encouraged members to pick up >and haul out trash from the islands-and that they did, the little ring of >high-tide poly disappeared. BUT- soon there were trails running into the >interiors of the islands and limbs were being cut to allow room for more >tents and all the driftwood was burned (I know that may seem hard for you >west coasters to fathom but there isn't that much on east coast islands) and >the granite was scarred with fire-rings and ewwww what was that I stepped >in. Yup the islands were becoming big litter boxes. Most of the islands in >Penobscot Bay have are granite with a fine duff on top and not much more, >and now that was being dug up and used as shallow graves for human waste. > >Now you might argue that as an outfitter I was part of the problem but from >my way of thinking I was teaching responsible use of the islands as well as >safety. I have never kindled a fire, cut a limb or left waste human or >otherwise on any of those islands. I was fortunate to have worked for a >wonderful woman who had very strong island ethics and for that I'm grateful. >Curiously it was probably her safety conscious practices (not renting boats >etc) not to mention the loss of her best guide to the west coast, that >eventually put her out of business (no need to be humble while ranting). > >You may think that I'm just bitter about having to share MY islands with the >rest of the world and in part you would be right but on the other hand I >think MITA created the very problem they were seeking to avoid. I have not >kept up with them or their politics but last I knew if you wanted to build a >big ole fire and squat in the bushes that was fine by them and for that I'm >pissed. > >Anyway that's just what I think. > >Cheers, > >Rob- Who is just back from Maine and who didn't fight the hoards to camp on >his favorite islands but squeezed his fat but into a tiny rodeo boat and >surfed the hell out of his favorite wave in the world. > > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth http://www.yourplanetearth.org (206) 788-0281 (ph) (206) 788-0284 (f) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I won't try to defend MITA much because as I said I'm ambivelant, but to my knowledge they have always been anti squatting in the woods and anti fire ring and they have become more so. My experience since the 80's is I see far more people out in organized tour groups than go out on their own. In terms of sheer numbers of people on the islands the impact of the tour operators appears to me to be much greater than the independant paddlers. I would also suspect that despite the best intentions of the guides, that the customers will have worse attitude regarding low-impact than paddlers who visit the islands under their own initiative. Even if the guided tours do not themselves create problems, they do serve as an introduction to the islands which will attract a certain number of paddlers back to do it on their own, even if there were no MITA. The problem is not that there is an organization that attempts to manage access to the islands. The people are going to visit them one way or another. The problem is that there are people that want to get out and experience the environment. It is short sighted to point at one organization and say "look, it's their fault." We would all like to go to a nice place and close the gate behind us. But, it won't work. Someone will eventually break down the gate. Tour groups and island trail organizations are not the problem, they are just symptoms. You should also include kayak manufacturers in the group of suspects. If they weren't making boats and agressively marketing them, there would be no need for the trail or the tours. It's all Matt Broze's fault. :-) At 6:05 PM -0700 7/12/00, Rob Cookson wrote: <Snip> >Now you might argue that as an outfitter I was part of the problem but from >my way of thinking I was teaching responsible use of the islands as well as >safety. I have never kindled a fire, cut a limb or left waste human or >otherwise on any of those islands. I was fortunate to have worked for a >wonderful woman who had very strong island ethics and for that I'm grateful. >Curiously it was probably her safety conscious practices (not renting boats >etc) not to mention the loss of her best guide to the west coast, that >eventually put her out of business (no need to be humble while ranting). > >You may think that I'm just bitter about having to share MY islands with the >rest of the world and in part you would be right but on the other hand I >think MITA created the very problem they were seeking to avoid. I have not >kept up with them or their politics but last I knew if you wanted to build a >big ole fire and squat in the bushes that was fine by them and for that I'm >pissed. > >Anyway that's just what I think. > >Cheers, > >Rob- Who is just back from Maine and who didn't fight the hoards to camp on >his favorite islands but squeezed his fat but into a tiny rodeo boat and >surfed the hell out of his favorite wave in the world. > > > > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St, Suite I Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: [snip > My experience since the 80's is I see far more people out in organized tour > groups than go out on their own. In terms of sheer numbers of people on the > islands the impact of the tour operators appears to me to be much greater > than the independant paddlers. [snip] Once again, I find myself in full agreement with Nick's comments. Still, I'm reluctant to condemn tour operators for several reasons. First, as I suspect many here could say, I have friends who run (own) companies that do this. Second, I've gone on guided tours myself, and enjoyed it very much. Third, the tour groups do, in many instances (not all, IMO), contribute to the overall goal (well, *I* think it's an overall goal) of bringing more people closer to the planet, and therefore maybe, just maybe, contribute to the movement that is trying to save the planet. Four, . . . . hey, it's a free market, after all, and these are businesses that are responding to a legitimate demand. Until we change our system (which I'm not at all sure we should do), that's perfectly proper. Nonetheless, despite all this (and more), I do find myself bristling at the sight of large groups of paddlers heading out of my favorite harbors led by a "tour guide" who will take them to some of my favorite landings and make a big, noisey mess. Still, in the final analysis, I keep coming back to the third point. Whatever the various alternatives are for people to use their leisure time, paddling a small boat out to undeveloped places to look at and appreciate the natural environment has to be one that we most hope people will choose. This must be despite the fact that it will inevitably result in increased usage of the places where we seek solitude and peace. The "yuppies from New York" who sign up for a day paddle out to your favorite island just *might* alter their views on environmental policy, on electoral politics, . . . on who knows what, as a result of a good experience. (Several years ago, I was one of them.) I'd rather see that any day than see them pile into a stinkpot and go "sport fishing" with a cooler full of beer (sigh). I guess my view is that we should just encourage the tour companies to exercise and teach sound low-impact practices and appreciation of the environment. This discussion has focused on MITA. I truly believe that MITA is doing great work. They are a fundamental part of that portion of the paddling community that is trying to save the Earth. If MITA members don't always follow the carefully developed and strict MITA policies, we shouldn't blame MITA. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi All So what is MITA's official policy on open fires and human waste disposal? -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Rob Cookson > Hi All > So what is MITA's official policy on open fires and human waste disposal? MITA publishes its policies and guidelines in its annual Guidebook. In the 2000 Guidebook, there are 13 pages dedicated to the topic "Leave No Trace on Maine's Islands: Low Impact Principles." Almost 2 full pages are devoted to the topic "Dispose of Waste Properly." This section includes emphasized language, to wit: ". . . Digging catholes to bury waste is not appropriate. . . . Solid human waste should be carried off and disposed of in an appropriate receptacle on the mainland. . . . " A number of thoughtful suggestions are offered on how to do this. Another 2 pages is devoted to the subject "Minimize Campfire Impact: Kindle No Fires." Among other strong admonitions, the Guidebook says, in bold print, "MITA recommends no open fires on the islands. Use campstoves only." Keep in mind that MITA doesn't own the islands, so the specific "policies" of the individual islands are relevant. On some publicly owned islands, fires are allowed, subject to permitting. On most private islands, they are not allowed. MITA can't over-ride the state policies or private owner requirements on any of these items. They can only publish guidelines and try to educate members. This year, MITA sent out a separate item called "Fragile Islands: A Guide to Low-Impact Tecniques." It's in a "handly format" to carry, and contains guidance about where to camp, how to dispose of waste, to avoid using fires, respect for wildlife, and other things. I haven't looked at the website lately, but I'd be surprised if much of this wasn't on the site, which is: www.mita.org Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Mark and All, Thanks for posting that. It looks like MITA has changed its ways. When they were developing guidelines in the 80's my old boss tried very hard to get MITA to encourage removal of waste and building no fires but at that time they wouldn't go for it. I'm glad to hear that that is now their stated policy. I couldn't find any of their guidelines on their site which surprised me. I can understand withholding trail info but it would seem that the web would be a great place to preach their island ethics to members and non members alike. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sailboat Restorations, Inc. > [mailto:sailboatrestorations_at_worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 11:11 AM > To: Rob Cookson; Paddlewise > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] MITA- was-Tour Groups - was Commando Camping > > > From: Rob Cookson > > Hi All > > So what is MITA's official policy on open fires and human waste > disposal? > > MITA publishes its policies and guidelines in its annual > Guidebook. In the > 2000 Guidebook, there are 13 pages dedicated to the topic "Leave > No Trace on > Maine's Islands: Low Impact Principles." Almost 2 full pages are > devoted to > the topic "Dispose of Waste Properly." This section includes emphasized > language, to wit: ". . . Digging catholes to bury waste is not > appropriate. > . . . Solid human waste should be carried off and disposed of in an > appropriate receptacle on the mainland. . . . " A number of thoughtful > suggestions are offered on how to do this. > > Another 2 pages is devoted to the subject "Minimize Campfire > Impact: Kindle > No Fires." Among other strong admonitions, the Guidebook says, in bold > print, "MITA recommends no open fires on the islands. Use > campstoves only." > Keep in mind that MITA doesn't own the islands, so the specific "policies" > of the individual islands are relevant. On some publicly owned islands, > fires are allowed, subject to permitting. On most private > islands, they are > not allowed. MITA can't over-ride the state policies or private owner > requirements on any of these items. They can only publish guidelines and > try to educate members. > > This year, MITA sent out a separate item called "Fragile Islands: > A Guide to > Low-Impact Tecniques." It's in a "handly format" to carry, and contains > guidance about where to camp, how to dispose of waste, to avoid > using fires, > respect for wildlife, and other things. I haven't looked at the website > lately, but I'd be surprised if much of this wasn't on the site, which is: > www.mita.org > > Mark > > > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi everyone, I've just returned from an excellent 2 week sea-kayaking trip to Norway (web trip report to follow...). Catching up with the list I found this thread interesting. In Norway (and Sweden I believe) there is a law that legally permits low impact camping on any land - so long as you are over a 100m from any houses and stay only for 1 night. The Scandinavians seem to have a refreshingly different attitude to the shared use of open spaces compared to much of the 'civilised world'! Though it didn't make finding places to sleep any easier!! Cheers, Keith *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RE/ > The Scandinavians seem to have a refreshingly different >attitude to the shared use of open spaces compared to much of the >'civilised world'! Though it didn't make finding places to sleep any >easier!! trash other people's property and have a vastly less-litigous society. ----------------------- Pete Cresswell *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RE/ >RE/ >> The Scandinavians seem to have a refreshingly different >>attitude to the shared use of open spaces compared to much of the >>'civilised world'! Though it didn't make finding places to sleep any >>easier!! > >trash other people's property and have a vastly less-litigous society. Looks like some text got snipped here by the server. Not that it's all that important, but my comments in full read: "From my experiences in Germany, I'd guess that they also train their kids not to trash other people's property and have a vastly less-litigous society." ----------------------- Pete Cresswell *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RE/ > The Scandinavians seem to have a refreshingly different >attitude to the shared use of open spaces compared to much of the >'civilised world'! Though it didn't make finding places to sleep any >easier!! trash other people's property and have a vastly less-litigous society. ----------------------- Pete Cresswell *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My apologies to all, especially Pete. I've tried sending this a second time and I don't know if this is happening in other mail systems but Pete's first line in his reply is being stripped somewhere. The first line in his reply reads: "From my experiences in Germany, I'd guess that they also train their kids not to" and then: "trash other people's property and have a vastly less-litigous society." I don't know if it is just my system or it didn't get transmitted to anyone. Again, my apologies 8-) Weird stuff.... Jackie > From owner-paddlewise_at_ns1.intelenet.net Mon Jul 17 04:33 PDT 2000 > From: "(Pete Cresswell)" <hc_at_FatBelly.com> > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Commando Camping > Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:57:39 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List > X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net > > RE/ > > The Scandinavians seem to have a refreshingly different > >attitude to the shared use of open spaces compared to much of the > >'civilised world'! Though it didn't make finding places to sleep any > >easier!! > > trash other people's property and have a vastly less-litigous society. > ----------------------- > Pete Cresswell > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I believe this law is called 'Allemensretten' (sp?) which translates to "Every Man's Right" Shawn Keith wrote: >Catching up with the list I found this thread interesting. In Norway (and >Sweden I believe) there is a law that legally permits low impact camping >on any land - so long as you are over a 100m from any houses and stay >only for 1 night. -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.geocities.com/shawnkayak/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>The Scandinavians seem to have a refreshingly different attitude >>to the shared use of open spaces compared to much of the 'civilized world'! >"From my experiences in Germany, I'd guess that they also train their kids not >to trash other people's property and have a vastly less-litigious society." Germany is not a Scandinavian country, and camping in Germany outside designated camping areas is illegal too, just like it is in the Netherlands. Although the 'free' camping system in Scandinavia works quite nice, in canoeing areas it most often means a lot of trash and ugly fire pits left behind scattered around (mostly?) by Dutch and German canoers too! I have heard the whole thing is questioned nowadays, whether they still will/can continue these 'rights' in the future. Dirk Barends the Netherlands (that piece of land beneath sealevel between England and Germany, no part of Scandinavia too!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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