What troubles me most about Mark's unfortunate accident is the fact that he was paddling a 14+ foot touring kayak on a class 3 - 4, 825 cfs, rocky whitewater river. When queried, he responded that he'd taken it on class 2 rivers, and his friends paddled the same boats through the Grand Canyon, (8,000 to 40,000+ cubic feet/ second). Please forgive my limited knowlege, but I thought that touring kayaks are designed to optimize paddling speed in straight lines, while whitewater boats need maneuverability and responsiveness. (In fact, whitewater boats have evolved into very odd watercraft, with some models under 7 feet, flat planing hulls and hard chines that look like handrails, and scallops on the bottoms that would work as a cross country ski pattern.) I've heard several sea kayak on ww river disaster stories over the years, (a Folbot totalled on a class 2 run, Boy Scouts badly bashing up a troop of borrowed glass sea kayaks on the Deschutes), but haven't heard any successes. Is this a common practice in some areas? Tina ------------------------------------------------------------- ___________ / OOOOOOO- / I / -OOOOOOO- / I /___________/ / I___________I / Have you hugged your bento today? Visit the Bento Buggy at: http://www.pcez.com/BentoBuggy ------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"... and impaled on their paddle [a leg injury ;-]. you are near a road, and i'll make up whatever other "details" you need ;-)" |a: what's your first plan of action What does impaled mean? Literally as in the paddle is buried through the leg orto the bone? Or just stuck 'em a bit and made the water a shade of red? I'm assuming our Intrepid Paddler has an injury beyond the abraided skin stage. 8-) If it is impaled I would leave the paddle in place to limit bleeding if possible. Stabilise the paddle to prevent/limit movement, compress the wound to minimise bleeding, keep the victim warm and try to keep them from going into shock. If no impaled but lots of blood, pretty much the same. |b: how do you decide if the person is capable of continuing on, on their |own, or if someone needs to play ambulance driver Depends on a: If the paddle really impaled someone has to play ambulance driver or call a real one. 8-) ** I ** would not be driving if I was the ImpaledOne. Real Impalation is going to be a no brainer on driving. Otherwise how much are they bleeding and is it stopped? |c: how do you notify the "next of kin" --- ie tell them to meet you at |the hospital/ER, without adding undue stress to the callee "Hi, its GreatPaddler, ImpaledOne had me call you to let you know he is ok but has a little boo boo from the kayak trip. We decided to be safe rather than sorry so we took ImpaledOne to the hospital to be checked outed. Can you meet us there?" How is that? You need to keep the other folks calm so the following would be a bad idea. "YO! ImpaledOne's wife! YEAH! MAN YOU should have seen what your Hubby did! He was Trying to beach his boat and got really wickedly window shaded by this humongous wave! He went over and over and over. We thought he was a gonner! When he finally came up for air, gulping for breath and spit'n sand we could see, like WOW, HIS PADDLE HAD BROKEN IN HALF AND WAS LIKE BURRIED THROUGH HIS LEG! It was way cool. Blood all spurt'n all over the place. The ocean was just red! But he is like ok now. Can you come get him from the Emergency Room? We can't hang out much longer since we have to get to the bar to celebrate our crossing." I think this would be the wrong way to notify the next of kin. 8-) |d: what other factors should be involved/considered Does ImpaledOne have a local NextOKin? If not, does ImpaledOne have children or pets that might have to be looked after while the Shaft is removed from the Shaftee? Someone needs to take care of our BelovedShaftee's 'yak, gear, maybe vehicle. If the accident was away from transport its a whole new ball game.... |e: is this discussion usefull? Yes. Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > "... and impaled on their paddle [a leg injury ;-]. you are near a > road, and i'll make up whatever other "details" you need ;-)" warning, VERY graphic injury description will follow. > |a: what's your first plan of action > What does impaled mean? Literally as in the paddle is buried through the > leg orto the bone? Or just stuck 'em a bit and made the water a shade of wooden/solid paddles would have caused impalement, aluminum, etc, would cause injury described next > red? I'm assuming our Intrepid Paddler has an injury beyond the abraided > skin stage. 8-) ok, we'll use my injury as a template 8^( ... i was more technically "cored" like an apple. the paddle shaft went through the flesh to the bone, then was pulled out. as the paddle went in at an angle, it left part of the flesh attached. a semi-circle, looking exactly like a "c" 1/2 cut deeply, 1/6th torn, one third attached, approximately 1.5" [3.5cm] across. the flap trying to fall out, me plugging it back in with my thumb, like the boy & the dike. http://www.dotzen.org/paddler/cpr/graphics/leg-01.jpg > If it is impaled I would leave the paddle in place to limit bleeding if > possible. Stabilise the paddle to prevent/limit movement, compress the > wound to minimise bleeding, keep the victim warm and try to keep them from > going into shock. If no impaled but lots of blood, pretty much the same. hand pressure until 1st aid kit on scene, ace bandage afterwards. the ER drs noted a 4" [10cm] ace is too narrow, should be 6-8" [15-20cm] > |b: how do you decide if the person is capable of continuing on, on their > |own, or if someone needs to play ambulance driver [snip] > Real Impalation is going to be a no brainer on driving. > Otherwise how much are they bleeding and is it stopped? quite a bit while swimming in the river ;-) cold water [temperature not avail online :-[ close to stopped with hand pressure while waiting for 1st aid kit. > |c: how do you notify the "next of kin" --- ie tell them to meet you at > |the hospital/ER, without adding undue stress to the callee > "Hi, its GreatPaddler, ImpaledOne had me call you to let you know he is ok > but has a little boo boo from the kayak trip. We decided to be safe rather > than sorry so we took ImpaledOne to the hospital to be checked outed. Can > you meet us there?" > > How is that? You need to keep the other folks calm so the following would > be a bad idea. so calling my wife, and asking her which ER she'd rather meet me at was uncool?? hmmmm, explains a few... ooopppsssss sorry 8^( > I think this would be the wrong way to notify the next of kin. 8-) applies to mine too ... but, in reality, i called, told her the weather was pretty good, and most of the paddling was good, at least until i stopped paddling... i'm ok, but i have to go to the hospital... but it's not so bad i can't drive the 3 hours home, and meet you at our local hospital... more later > |d: what other factors should be involved/considered > Does ImpaledOne have a local NextOKin? If not, does ImpaledOne have what's local?, and how long is safe to drive with a gaping wound, how long can it stay open... [covered, not gaping to the world, but that center mass of flesh is soaking in blood, it's not going _through_ it... > children or pets that might have to be looked after while the Shaft is > removed from the Shaftee? Someone needs to take care of our > BelovedShaftee's 'yak, gear, maybe vehicle. excellent, maybe... i drove home, because the kids [16 & 17] were NOT home to give my wife a lift, so we'd have had to deal with a car at a mountain hospital 3-4 hours away, with me in NO condition to drive once they pumped me full of pain killer for the stitches!! > If the accident was away from transport its a whole new ball game.... even with blood running down my leg, we couldn't flag down a passing motorist ... tried 3 cars in 20 minutes. so, how long is tooo long for what? broken bones would add to this, but blood is enough!! > |e: is this discussion usefull? > Yes. good!! > Later... > Dan McCarty great job ;-) i'd like you on my trips 8-)# -- #-canoeist[at]dotzen[dot]org------------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [__| [__\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.dotzen.org/paddler [index to club websites i administer] ---- A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner. -- English Proverb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Tina wrote: > What troubles me most about Mark's unfortunate accident is the fact that he > was paddling a 14+ foot touring kayak on a class 3 - 4, 825 cfs, rocky > whitewater river. When queried, he responded that he'd taken it on class 2 i also paddle it with some regularity on class III rivers ;-) > rivers, and his friends paddled the same boats through the Grand Canyon, > (8,000 to 40,000+ cubic feet/ second). from the website for this boat: The perfect touring boat design, legendary for its versatility: the Yukon Expedition is a full-volume touring kayak capable of functioning in a dynamic long or short river environment as well as on lakes or oceans. Carve, glide and track with the Trihedral hull. Its features include raised decks for more volume, sleek kayak expedition lines and whitewater capabilities. The flush-to-the-deck hatches eliminate water/wind resistance and the possibility of snags, while fixed internal foam bulkheads provide extra stability in any river-touring environment. > Please forgive my limited knowlege, but I thought that touring kayaks are > designed to optimize paddling speed in straight lines, while whitewater > boats need maneuverability and responsiveness. (In fact, whitewater boats > have evolved into very odd watercraft, with some models under 7 feet, flat > planing hulls and hard chines that look like handrails, and scallops on the > bottoms that would work as a cross country ski pattern.) don't confuse "touring" with "sea kayak" ;-) > I've heard several sea kayak on ww river disaster stories over the years, > (a Folbot totalled on a class 2 run, Boy Scouts badly bashing up a troop > of borrowed glass sea kayaks on the Deschutes), but haven't heard any > successes. Is this a common practice in some areas? > > Tina the rocky mountain sea kayak club run regular trips on some of the easier rivers, have had several members show up on the loma to westwater run [ruby & horsethief canyons] during the spring run-off, and the club runs it a couple times a year, during lower water. again, it is mainly a matter of semantics, but in colorado, where there is an extreme variety of water available to paddle, we recognize 3-4 types of kayak, recreational [kiwi's etc], whitewater [sub 12 footers], touring [12-16 ft], andd sea kayaks [16 foot+] ... the prijon yukon expedition is an extremely popular boat in colorado. http://www.wildnet.com/yukon.htm from the last membership roster from RMSKC, it was _the_ most common boat!! and when i paddle lakes with the club, they leave me behind much of the time [so now i have a glass yak to use ;-] solo whitewater canoes fall into the 11-14 foot range, so this kayak is no longer than some of these boats, plus, a factor you may not have taken into account is _my_ size ;-) at 6' [1.8m] and over 200lbs [95kg] when i bought the boat, it isn't all that big!! did i mention also, that i'm a certified canoe instructor? so i have a little bit of an idea whether a boat is appropriate for a given run. again, no affiliation w/prijon, just like their products mark -- #-canoeist[at]dotzen[dot]org------------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [__| [__\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.dotzen.org/paddler [index to club websites i administer] ---- A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner. -- English Proverb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> What troubles me most about Mark's unfortunate accident is the fact that he >> was paddling a 14+ foot touring kayak on a class 3 - 4, 825 cfs, rocky >> whitewater river. When queried, he responded that he'd taken it on class 2 >i also paddle it with some regularity on class III rivers ;-) > [ Much Snipped here....] I've tried out a Yukon Expedition here in NJ, and it IS a good whitewater boat, as well as a good touring kayak. There are a couple of rivers in PA which are class II and afford overnite camping. This is a good kayak for this purpose. And yes, you can turn well through a Class III rapid. It's not the only one around, either. Recently Wilderness Systems introduced the Shaman, which has lines like the YE. Dagger has come out with the Crossover, a shorter boat whose lineage started with WW and wound up as a touring boat. I haven't tried it on Class II water yet, but a few demos on class I suggest that this too is a good boat for such conditions. Anyway, if you look at some of the older WW kayaks of a coupla decades ago, you'll see not a few that were 14 feet or longer. --You have to take the skills of the paddler into account...... Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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