>What people with skills, equipment and experience are you referring to? >I saw discussions on rescue scenarios covering a variety of "what if's?" >Highly trained rescue personnel are taught not to put themselves in a >situation in which they, too, become a rescue victim. These are the >people with *the* highest level of rescue skills. > > >I also read honest discussion about the comfort level or lack thereof >with some folks in a particular rescue scenario attempting to cover all >the possible complications that may arise (which is anyone's guess because >I would imagine all rescue situations could have different results). I've >also heard paddlers "talk" about what they would do when faced with a >particular situation, only to have that "talk" go straight out the window >in a real crisis, some reacting in ways that they did not anticipate about >themselves. Real life makes real heroes... or not. > I was not condemning all that was said on the subject. I also read the honest discussions from people who are far more qualified and experienced then I am. In fact I thought most of what I read to be valuable and practical information to be tucked away in some unused brain cells and hopefully never used. But I'm sorry some of what I read struck a nerve. I'm not going type it out in detail here because it has very little to do with kayaking and would probably generate more emotion than useful information. I think it best to just smile and quietly slip back into the last row where the lurkers sit and keep my opinion on this to myself:) I'm reminded of a quote from an old naval officer who so influenced me in my youth. He said, "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam" dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Ralph .... here' s some thoughts on the rescue situation First, i would not exit my kayak as could impair my safety - particularly if water conditions are not calm and wind is blowing. I would approach very causiously and attempt to instill calm in the non-swimmers. If calm prevails, i can then get onto the bow and stern of the kayak and paddle to shore. If calm does not prevail, then switch to plan B. Another option is to throw them the end of my tow line, have them hold on and pull them to shore - if this becomes dangerous I can always unhook the towline and free myself. Another option would be to provide them some type of flotation - a paddle float, my pfd (go ahead and scream at me, but in very calm conditions the risk may not be s ignificant), a dry bag inflated ..... Most important is for the rescurer to not become a rescuee. should be some interesting responses sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> <snip> > Keep the overturned kayak between you and them, while talking calmly to > assure them that help is on the way and that hanging on will keep them > afloat. I would also ask the instructor what he/she would recommend if you discover the panicky, non-swimmers do not speak your language? There is a very good chance of this in many coastal waters. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:39 PM 8/17/00 -0700, ralph diaz wrote: BIG SNIP > >While making certain that you are not near them, tip over your kayak and >fall out. > >Keeping the kayak between you and them, push it close to them for them >to grab on to. > Ralph, What you've reported here seems reasonable. I think there is a problem if the two are more than a kayak's length apart. I guess you push the boat towards to poorer swimmer and try to encourage the other guy to head your way. Perhaps a paddle float could be tossed to the stronger of the two while you pushed the boat to the weaker. Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: ralph diaz [mailto:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com] > > It sounds like one workable scenario to me. And I would like to know > what others think about it? Has any one been in such a predicament? I haven't had to rescue a panicked swimmer from my kayak, but have rescued a fair number of folks both in swimming pools and open water (Lake Michigan). Unless you're a trained lifeguard and a very good swimmer, you do not ever want to make personal contact with a panicked or struggling swimmer (even if you are you won't want to!). The comments sound pretty good to me but it could/would be dangerous - someone who is struggling in the water will do anything they can to keep their head above water - including climb right up your body and stand on your shoulders! Try to make and keep eye contact - it's reassuring. Talking to the victim(s)is important. Getting control of the panic is critical. In rough water this can be difficult - with only your head out of the water it's hard to see something else (the victim) from very far away and wind can make it difficult to communicate. I wouldn't try something like this unless I was certain that I could make it to shore even if help did not arrive (taking into account water temp, distance, water conditions, etc). Once an untrained invidual has sacrificed their kayak they're not much use out there in the water beyond helping to quell panic. There may come a point though, where you would have to make the choice of leaving while you still can. DO NOT CREATE ANOTHER VICTIM!!!! As I think about this longer, perhaps the best course of action might be to dump the kayak, push it from the bow or stern to a victim (if there are two and they're separated you will have to make a choice), and then head for shore yourself if it is within your ability - if it's not maybe you shouldn't have put yourself in that position..... There's not a whole lot that you're going to be able to do for them if you're not trained and your risk could be high. Don't attempt something like this at the edge of your personal performance/safety envelope - there's no guarantee that help will arrive in time. I cannot stress strongly enough how dangerous it is to be in the water with someone who believes that they're going to drown. The strength and energy they can exhibit while trying to defeat death can be incredible until they become exhausted. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Seng, Dave wrote: > > From: ralph diaz [mailto:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com] > > > > It sounds like one workable scenario to me. And I would like to know > > what others think about it? Has any one been in such a predicament? > > Unless you're a trained lifeguard and a very good swimmer, you > do not ever want to make personal contact with a panicked or struggling > swimmer (even if you are you won't want to!). This was my thought immediately, especially multiple panicked swimmers. I would rather taunt/coax the panicked swimmers into chasing me and my boat toward shore, paddling backwards to keep track of them. That way when they tired or calmed down it MIGHT be possible to let them grab onto the end of the boat. I periodically practice having people climb and ride on my boat so I know how my boat handles in those conditions - but reasonably well behaved people, not panicked ones. Dave's suggestions and comments are very good, avoid touching or being touched by a panicked swimmer. Resorting to whacking them with a paddle to get away if necessary. -- > > As I think about this longer, perhaps the best course of action might be > to dump the kayak, push it from the bow or stern to a victim (if there are > two and they're separated you will have to make a choice), and then head for > shore yourself if it is within your ability - if it's not maybe you > shouldn't have put yourself in that position..... There's not a whole lot > that you're going to be able to do for them if you're not trained and your > risk could be high. Don't attempt something like this at the edge of your > personal performance/safety envelope - there's no guarantee that help will > arrive in time. > > I cannot stress strongly enough how dangerous it is to be in the water with > someone who believes that they're going to drown. The strength and energy > they can exhibit while trying to defeat death can be incredible until they > become exhausted. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirk Olsen writes: > On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Seng, Dave wrote: > > > > From: ralph diaz [mailto:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com] > > > > > > It sounds like one workable scenario to me. And I would like to know > > > what others think about it? Has any one been in such a predicament? > > > > Unless you're a trained lifeguard and a very good swimmer, you > > do not ever want to make personal contact with a panicked or struggling > > swimmer (even if you are you won't want to!). > > This was my thought immediately, especially multiple panicked swimmers. Its been (sort of) mentioned a few times, but I'll add one thing here. In my SRT (Swiftwater Rescue Tech) class we did a practice called 'Combat Swim'. This is where you come up upon a seemingly unconcious victim floating downriver. You jump in, come up behind the victim and just as you make contact - the 'victim' wakes up and attacks you, attempting to use you as flotation. The solution is either to splash water at the victim and move away or if its too late to dive under. Its amazing how quickly your instinct to let go kicks in when your flotation starts to take you under (yes, I got to be a 'victim' 8). To address the scenario described by Ralph. I'd apply the standard rescue techniques: Reach, Throw, Row, Tow, Go. Reaching for them is out, since they're a fair way from shore. Next I'd throw them a line. If that didn't work and since I'm a decent swimmer and its close to shore I might throw one of them my pfd tied to a line (I always carry a throw bag, so this is likely gear to have). If that doesn't work, I'd try to get them(? or at least one of) to hold my stern and row them (both if I could get em) to shore. In this situation, it may not be necessary to row them so much as stabilize until help arrives. I think as a last resort and given the circumstances I might try the flipped kayak method, but only after I've tried RTRTG. Note - going to the victim (physical contact) is usually the last resort and only if your fairly confident that you can handle the person/situation. As a few people have mentioned, its really a judgement call and one that is hard to predict what you'll do when the time comes. For myself, I'd hope I can evaluate the situation enough to avoid becoming a victim. OTOH, my instince to help is strong enough that I'm not really sure what I'll do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- snark_at_tulgey.org aka Glen Acord http://www.tulgey.org/~snark if ($snark eq "boojum") {vanish("softly","suddenly")} *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Several times during my whitewater kayaking days I rescued people who had been swimming near a rapid and got caught in the current and flushed throught the rapid...no pfd... no brains. Usually I was able to give them a chance to grab my back grab loop and before they could do anything panicy I would start paddling them to shore. It these cases the persons hung on for dear life and in one case had to be pried off my boat when we reached shore. Only in two cases did I get my body close and in these two cases the swimmers were to the point of exhaustion when I reached them. Also in both these cases I needed another boat to pull me to shore while I held on to the victim My advice is that if you approach a drowning panicky person either give them one end of your boat or toss them a paddle float or gear bag or whatever....if you toss them your pfd you may (probably) are putting your life at risk. Bob Sitka *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The idea that a person in a boat -- any kind of boat -- should exit that boat to rescue someone in the water strikes me as wrong. I have been an MOB in cold December waters in Eastern Long Island Sound, without a PFD (but I am a good swimmer), and I can tell you for certain that it can become a very very frightening situation, much faster than one might think. I would not want to risk my own life by getting into the water to aid a swimmer. If it were a loved on, well, all rules are forgotten. But otherwise, no. I agree with the notion of paddling to them and trying to calm them to the point that they could hold on to the kayak. If possible, I would paddle slowly to the dock. If not, I would use some communication method to summon additional help. I might throw them my PFD, if I was close enough that I *knew* I could swim to shore if I had to. I might try to inflate a paddle float and throw them that. But I would not get out of the boat voluntarily. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Regarding... <<<snip> > Keep the overturned kayak between you and them, while talking calmly to > assure them that help is on the way and that hanging on will keep them > afloat. Ralph I would also ask the instructor what he/she would recommend if you discover the panicky, non-swimmers do not speak your language? There is a very good chance of this in many coastal waters. Jackie >> I believe the instinct for survival would pretty much take over if a floatation device were thrown their way. - Lou San Diego, CA 000817/1229 -----Original Message----- From: Jackie Fenton [mailto:jackie_at_intelenet.net] Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 11:36 AM To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How would you deal with the following situation > From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** [demime removed a uuencoded section named winmail.dat which was 66 lines] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Velasco MGySgt Louis <VelascoL_at_3MAW.USMC.MIL> > > I believe the instinct for survival would pretty much take over if a > floatation device were thrown their way. I wondered about the possibility of getting close enough to toss my pfd at them (I think I'd rather risk giving up my pfd rather than coming within reach of a panicky swimmer) but I'm not sure someone that was panicking would always be together enough to grab it. The key to survival here would be to *not* panick. Also, the ability to grab it (how many times had they gone under already... you would most likely get only once chance to hit your target with conditions described). This is going to probably seem unrelated but the closest I came to this is being in the river with a large lab (he didn't belong to anyone in our group) that was panicking and attempting to crawl on top of me. (several of us were leisurely floating downriver alongside our boats for recreation in a long, wide and slow stretch). The dog was pushing me under. I dove under my boat and positioned it between myself and the dog and continued to maneuver around my boat away from the dog (who was still trying to reach me) until I finally got to shore. Not sure how I would have handled it had there been two of them 8-} But it was not easy to keep away from one. About a year later, I read about a swimmer who was drowned by his large dog that had panicked in the water and attempted to climb on top of his owner for safety. btw, the dog attempting to climb on top of me was quite able to make it to shore... just too stupid (panicked?) to know he could do it. 8-} He followed me and my boat in. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Regarding... <<First, i would not exit my kayak as could impair my safety - particularly if water conditions are not calm and wind is blowing. I would approach very causiously and attempt to instill calm in the non-swimmers. If calm prevails, i can then get onto the bow and stern of the kayak and paddle to shore. If calm does not prevail, then switch to plan B. Another option is to throw them the end of my tow line, have them hold on and pull them to shore - if this becomes dangerous I can always unhook the towline and free myself. Another option would be to provide them some type of flotation - a paddle float, my pfd (go ahead and scream at me, but in very calm conditions the risk may not be s ignificant), a dry bag inflated ..... Most important is for the rescurer to not become a rescuee.>> I would agree on the shuffle of action priorities that you indicate to. Professional thoughts: When a sea rescue is attempted by a non-professional, exiting the vessel (large or small) is generally considered "the final option" due to the risk of becoming an additional victim. However, when the call to action comes, if an individual has the confidence, acute situational awareness, and a bit of luck, it's amazing what one will do to save another's life. Personal reflection: In my younger days, I watched a couple of buddies (fellow Marines) rush into burning CH53 Super Stallion that had crashed, almost on top of us, and pull out three men. A minute later, forced back by the flames of the jet fuel, the rest of us watched as the rest of her crew succumbed to the flames. These men were by no stretch of the imagination prepared or equipped for this situation. All they possessed was the willingness and the guts to try... fortunately, the dice came up in their favor. To the men they saved, no words can ever document their gratitude. Am I suggesting that we throw caution to the wind and roll the dice? Not a chance! All I'm saying is, no matter how we debate the appropriate steps, procedures and options, the "final decision to act" is solely a matter of personal judgment and accountability. Just my worthless two cents. - Lou San Diego, CA 000817/1323 [demime removed a uuencoded section named winmail.dat which was 87 lines] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Kirk Olsen <kolsen_at_imagelan.com> > On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Seng, Dave wrote: > > > Unless you're a trained lifeguard and a very good swimmer, you > > do not ever want to make personal contact with a panicked or struggling > > swimmer (even if you are you won't want to!). > > This was my thought immediately, especially multiple panicked swimmers. Yup. Same thoughts. Folks here have described rescuing *one.* Two at once (where you didn't have time to take one to shore and go back to retrieve the other) could be a very different outcome. You might have to realize that you can only help one (which is probably what the others here mean). My point in my earlier post is that I really had no idea how easy it is for another (even a dog) to push me under water where the only way up is to dive further under water and swim. Also, has anyone ever managed to calm down a panicking (I mean seriously panicking) swimmer? I was told by an instructor once that life-guards will often wait until a panicky swimmer has passed out before risking going in the water with them. Regarding the rescues mentioned here that went well, I'm assuming they were rescues of people that were familiar with being in the water and were swimmers (I don't know any kayakers that can't swim but I suppose there could be some out there... shudder). My guess is that it would be a whole different ball game to come to the aid of a panicking non-swimmer. I, too, wouldn't be beyond whacking them on the head with my paddle, Steve, :-) but is it realistic to think it would be effective if the person in the water were a panicky non-swimmer and much stronger than me? Anyone have experience with a drowning, panicky non-swimmer? Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark wrote: > I agree with the notion of paddling to them and trying to > calm them to the > point that they could hold on to the kayak. If possible, I > would paddle > slowly to the dock. If not, I would use some communication > method to summon > additional help. I might throw them my PFD, if I was close > enough that I > *knew* I could swim to shore if I had to. I might try to > inflate a paddle > float and throw them that. But I would not get out of the > boat voluntarily. > (climbing up on my stump) The key thing here, I think, is that if you're dealing with a panicked non-swimmer they won't be calm until they get hold of something that floats - you/your kayak. A fully inflated paddlefloat is good flotation - but devilishly hard to throw accurately, especially in the wind. Once the victim has hold of your boat all bets are off as to what can happen - I wouldn't let anyone grab my boat while I was in it without being fully prepared to bash'em in the face/chest/arms with the paddle to get them off if they began to make the situation precarious (and at that point you're dangerously close to becoming a possible victim yourself). People drown every year - and every year well-intentioned, but unskilled, rescuers drown too. Happened right here earlier this year - Mom loved her child who was drowning, Mom died too. A single death is a tragedy, two doubly so. The only reason that most paddlers in this position should even _begin_ to consider making a rescue attempt in a situation like this is because they have a large floating object - not necessarily a stable one, but floating. If you're the only chance of immediate rescue for the victim you have to make a quick decision - to help or not. It's not easy - I once watched helplessly from the beach as my brother was pummeled in 8 ft clapotis waves as a strong current pulled him toward some dangerous rocks that would likely have killed or severely injured him - fortunately he made it, but I _knew_ that I couldn't help him and that it would only make things worse by trying (we're both very strong swimmers and had been swimming competitively for 12+ years at that time). The decision shouldn't be made out of nobility or love or any other emotion - it should be made logically based on what you know you can do. It won't do anyone a single iota of good if you die trying. A panicked, thrashing victim is not going to calm down and begin treading water when they see you approach - if they could do that they wouldn't be panicked. They stay panicked sometimes even when you grab them in the water and support them. I never had to punch anyone, but I have had to apply enough pressure around a neck to make someone stop fighting me. If you give them your boat and you're in it they basically own the boat. If they start to crawl up on it and threaten to cause a capsize you'll have two options - beat them off the boat (they will not reason logically right then<grin>) or abandon ship - and at that point you may be dangerously close to them. Giving up a boat to a panicked swimmer is definitely taking a risk - no doubt about that at all. __Don't do it if you can't make shore by yourself__. Letting you and your boat come in contact with a panicked swimmer could become more than merely risky. Before you get in a position like this ask yourself a question - what would you be able to do if someone much bigger and stronger grabbed you around the neck with both hands and began shoving you under water. These scenarios, while worthwhile exercises for the discussion and the thoughts generated, leave so many holes that we as a group cannot come up with the one best answer. If it's a 95 lb woman or boy in the water I'd let them grab my kayak and attempt to paddle to safety - they could not over power me. If it's a 250 lb guy and I'm not trained - well, I would not want them grabbing my kayak with me in it. Dave Seng dismounting my stump Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think it's pretty safe to assume that these dudes are going to be panicky. I think first and foremost, that you have to assert yourself as an authority figure and that you will help them. You don't want to be their friend. You don't want them to question your instructions. You want them to listen to you and do exactly as you tell them. In a very strong, but calm voice tell them that you are there to help them. I would throw something that floats. If they were screaming, "Help, I can't swim!" I wouldn't approach them.. I would, however, probably consider throwing them my towline and heading toward shore. It may take a looong time, but it's got to give the victim more hope than just bobbing aimlessly. If they start hand-over-handing their way toward me, I'll cut them loose. I don't want to be a victim, too. If I asked them if they could swim and they replied that they could, I would offer them the stern of my boat. If someone can swim, and holding my floating object is enough to calm them down to reply that they can, it would be an indication to me that they are getting less panicky. I would feel safe enough to let them onto my boat. Again, like Ralph said, a swimmer is less likely to panic than a non-swimmer. I would just do my best to evaluate whether they had overcome the initial shock of being in the water enough to trust risking my stern grab toggle to save them. If someone holding my stern tries climb up on the deck, or starts pulling their way toward me, I'm going to smack them in the face with my paddle. My own survival instincts are going to take over. I don't want to be a victim, too. Hence my earlier statement about becoming an authority figure in their eyes. If they see that there is no choice but to listen to me, then I can avoid having to smack 'em with the paddle. I don't want to sound unnecessarily cruel, but I don't want to be a victim, too. Do not allow the victim to do anything you don't tell them to. You must maintain that you are still the authority figure. Once you give up the air of authority, you're toast. Shawn -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.geocities.com/shawnkayak/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shaun says: "If someone holding my stern tries climb up on the deck, or starts pulling their way toward me, I'm going to smack them in the face with my paddle." That would give you a risk of capsize as you whack the victim wouldn't it? I often leave the bungy holding the rudder down on after launch, and have to reach around with the paddle and coax it off. It's unstable while doing this. Belting someone violently with the paddle blade would probably leave me in the water too. Regards, Peter Treby 37* 42' S 145* 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Once you give up the >air of authority, you're toast. > >Shawn That is the absolute truth! Fred *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/17/00 1:43:36 PM, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << Do not get close to the panicky fellows in the water. They will only pull you over. While making certain that you are not near them, tip over your kayak and fall out. Keeping the kayak between you and them, push it close to them for them to grab on to. Whistle away or use your VHF radio to summon more help. Keep the overturned kayak between you and them, while talking calmly to assure them that help is on the way and that hanging on will keep them afloat. >> Essentially, this is what I have thought would work. My primary concern is moving the boat close enough for a panicked person to grab. It is bear pushing a boat while swimming. What I usually do when I need to get back to shore is not a safe maneuver in any kind of rough conditions because I stick my foot into the painter on the front deck and pull the boat behind as I swim with my paddle. Though I could probably avoid any panicked person I'd be betting my life on it. I'd have to swim to the person with the boat behind me, not between me and them. I would hope I had the time to go to one end of the boat and push the other they way. Swimming in a pfd is a big pain. What I'd probably end up doing is to get fairly close and as I dump away from them, pushing the boat in their direction as I came out. I'd try to tell them I was doing it and to grab the boat. Then I could either maneuver the boat to them if it didn't make it all the way or just grab the OTHER end of the boat from the one they have, trying to talk to them to calm them. I wonder what would happen if someone tried to climb on top of the overturned boat. I don't think they could flip it over on top of them self but a panicked person can do the most unlikely things. <<- I wouldn't let anyone grab my boat while I was in it without being fully prepared to bash'em in the face/chest/arms with the paddle to get them off if they began to make the situation precarious (and at that point you're dangerously close to becoming a possible victim yourself).>> I'm going to agree with Dave because I had an experience in a swim support of a swimmer, not really panicked but not thinking either.I told him to grab my bow toggle and I'd tow him but he tried to climb on my boat instead. I pointed at him with the end of my Greenland paddle (2X4) and in a commanding voice told him to get off. He did. But I thought to myself, what if he had grabbed my paddle? Then I'd have been in a world of trouble. The other thing is, could I hit a panicked swimmer hard enough to get his attention without more hurt? Could I even hit someone in obvious trouble at all? I'd have to be close to panic to do it I suspect. I hope I never have to get into such a life or death situation because I'd probably be too frightened to get close to someone going down. Joan Spinner * * * Paddling the Chesapeake Bay watershed in a yellow/white CD Gulfstream and a red, CD Breeze *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Jackie Fenton [mailto:jackie_at_intelenet.net] > Anyone have experience with a drowning, panicky non-swimmer? > Yep. Had to rescue a guy who was a lot bigger than me - he wasn't close to drowning yet (but thought he was!) and I screwed up and let him get close and he latched on to me tight. At that point you have to use your skill and ability in the water to counteract their strength. We spent a bit of time under water - when we came up he was more concerned about breathing than he was about hanging on to me. I had an instructor once who said that it was perfectly fine to punch a struggling victim - said it tended to get their attention real quickly. In life and death situations social niceties really just don't play. Stuff like this is WAY beyond the scope of this discussion. You cannot learn this stuff or gain the capability by reading about it. Rescues in the water can be dangerous. If you don't _know_ what you're doing out there then as difficult and awful as it sounds don't try to help. Go get help!!! I can't over emphasize this - you don't get any points for trying and failing. It's a one point game. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I had an interesting event last year while I was doing my instructors training and although the situation was not real it certainly hightlighted some points. We were a long way off shore in bouncy conditions. The examiner, a very experienced kayak and outdoor education teacher, went into panic mode. He feel out of his kayak and throw the paddle away and started calling for help. As I was the closest I went up and told him to grab my kayak while the others came in to help with the rescue. But he started climbing onboard even though I told him not to. I pretty well knew then, that no matter what I did, John (the examiner) was going to make sure I ended up in the water. I tried desperately to keep my kayak upright while trying to calm him and get him just to hang on to the safety lines. In the end I tipped over and tried to roll up but he was trying to climb on top of the upturned kayak and I had to wet exit. Now in this situation John knew exactly what he was doing and what he wanted to happen to me and made sure I could still wet exit. If it was for real its possible that the panicy person could inhibit your ability to wet exit and you are in deep trouble. John told me that the panic he was simulating was not unreasonable for a novice kayaker and I suppose also a motorboater in the situation Ralph describes. As a result I would be hesitant to go near a panicky swimmer unless I felt confident that I could get out of my kayak if they tipped me. And I would think that it would be very likely that you would be tipped. I like the idea of getting out first and edging your kayak towards them but I would want to be confident I could survive without my kayak (ie near shore). I think Jackies point, about being able to throw your PFD near a panicy swimmer being difficult, is a valid one. It wouldn't take much wind to blow the PFD along Someone mentioned what if you are a long way off shore. I think this would depend on the circumstances. If I am travelling solo and a long way off shore then its likely that I would be carrying an EPRIB. It the water was not too cold and its not too late in the day then I would still offer up my kayak but trip off the EPRIB. I would attempt to get all of us to hang onto the kayak and explain that I am tripping of a rescue beacon and help would be on its way. I wouldn't do this late in the afternoon because it takes some time for the authorities to organise a SAR once a beacon has been activated. If no planes have picked up the signal then due to the Doppler effect the SAR team often need to wait another hour (next satelite pass) as the beacon signal shows up in two locations several hundred kilometres apart when it is first activated. Advice about the judgement call makes it difficult to come up with all the likely scenarios. I think this was a good thread for discussion and glad Ralph brought it up. David Australia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Leroy said > -----Or > There are already two victoms and a third is definately not needed, so > I'll > start with what I would not do. I would not exit my kayak. I would not > remove > my own PFD. I would not manouver my kayak within their grasp. > I think not giving up your PFD is a bit mean. In six years of serious ocean paddling I have never needed my lifejacket but wear it for the day I do. If that is all it take take to help the victims then I would not hesitate throwing them my jacket. The chances of needing my jacket at the same time I donated it to save some lives would be pretty slim. If I had a choice between loosing my spray skirt or my PFD then I would give up the PFD every time David *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/18/00 2:16:29 AM !!!First Boot!!!, snark_at_tulgey.org writes: << Reach, Throw, Row, Tow, Go >> These things keep getting more complicated. The original axiom was "reach, throw and go". REACH for the person in need of help (I believe the original post suggested reaching with the kayak). If you cannot reach the "pinoh," THROW some flotation (preferably tethered) or a line to them. When REACH and THROW won't work, GO for help. In the original scenario, with people nearby and in a marina situation, since everyone here is a good Paddlewiser (read wearing proper immersion gear and PFD), REACH for them with your boat or watch them drown. It's a simple choice. The original scenario did not take place on the open sea or amidst iceflows or crocodiles. Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: Outfit3029_at_aol.com << Reach, Throw, Row, Tow, Go >> > These things keep getting more complicated. The original axiom was > "reach, throw and go". Yup. That's what I remember from a river rescue class. > When REACH and THROW won't work, GO for help. > In the original scenario, with people nearby and in a marina situation, > since everyone here is a good Paddlewiser (read wearing proper immersion gear > and PFD), REACH for them with your boat or watch them drown. It's a simple > choice. Much of the discussion debates whether to reach them with your boat while *in* it or while *out* of it. I think therein lies most of the debate. > The original scenario did not take place on the open sea or amidst > iceflows or crocodiles. That's true. Unfortunately, most drowning accidents don't occur in the above either. They are usually in fairly benign conditions 8-} Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Before we get too far afield on this, I would like to get back to some things I read in all the thoughtful contributions to this string of postings. I forget who said this but someone went back to First Aid 101 and its first principle, assess the overall situation before deciding on a course of action. So, for example, if you come upon a victim lying unconscious and a swollen river is rising to where he is, you don't worry about broken bones, wounds, etc., you remove the person from the looming danger; this may or may not involve a risk to yourself...you have to decide how much risk you are willing to take. Once you take action to "secure" the situation then you do the first aid on a first need basis, i.e. if a person is not breathing you take care of that first before wrapping a bleeding wound. So, if you come on to a scene of people on the water who can't swim and don't have flotation, you first have to figure out what the entire environment is. If as in the case I mentioned you are within sight of a marina (its closest finger docks were within about one-fifth or one-eight of a mile) and people on a seawall can be seen gesturing and using cell phones, there is virtually no risk to yourself to drop out of your kayak and push it toward the drowning non-swimmers. While we are all trained to consider our kayak our lifeline, or ultimate survival tool, in this case your survival rate in your PFD, with help on the way and the marina's docks a leisurely swim away, was 100 percent even without your kayak, as long as you had it between you and the panicky swimmers and could swim away from them if they started climbing over and trying to grab you. You secured the scene by thrusting your kayak into the situation as a virtually unsinkable life raft. If the scene were in the middle of a turbulent bay a mile from shore, getting out of your kayak may not be a wise move since there your kayak is your lifeline. You might be in the water for hours without help being summoned or coming. You would not necessarily be helping to secure the situation by jumping out of your kayak. ralph diaz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: David Seales <aieae_at_ntplx.com> > >Rather judgemental, wouldn't you say? > > Judgmental?...me? I'm just surprised that people who have the skills, the > equipment the experience and who are at home in the water would not do more > then just toss a paddle float to a drowning person. What people with skills, equipment and experience are you referring to? I saw discussions on rescue scenarios covering a variety of "what if's?" Highly trained rescue personnel are taught not to put themselves in a situation in which they, too, become a rescue victim. These are the people with *the* highest level of rescue skills. I also read honest discussion about the comfort level or lack thereof with some folks in a particular rescue scenario attempting to cover all the possible complications that may arise (which is anyone's guess because I would imagine all rescue situations could have different results). I've also heard paddlers "talk" about what they would do when faced with a particular situation, only to have that "talk" go straight out the window in a real crisis, some reacting in ways that they did not anticipate about themselves. Real life makes real heroes... or not. > In the scenario Ralph > presented the victims were close to shore and it was likely help would be > called to the scene very soon. Getting out of the boat and getting wet for > what would probably be just a few minutes seems to me a small price to pay > for possibly saving 2 lives. Sounds simple enough. Sounds and looks real simple in ascii posted to a list written while comfortably sitting behind a bright screen. However, since Ralph and no one else here was actually witness to the scene, several folks looked at and evaluated the situation with a series of what-ifs and expanded on that with open and honest observation and input based on their own experiences and knowledge. I appreciate their frank and honest opinions. > My guess is when faced with this situation in real life most would do more > then they say here. I think a lot of folks expressed a good deal of desire to help and were discussing different ways to make that possible. Did you miss that? Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Ralph, > From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> <snip> > one-eight of a mile) and people on a seawall can be seen gesturing and > using cell phones, there is virtually no risk to yourself to drop out of > your kayak and push it toward the drowning non-swimmers. While we are > all trained to consider our kayak our lifeline, or ultimate survival > tool, in this case your survival rate in your PFD, with help on the way > and the marina's docks a leisurely swim away, was 100 percent even > without your kayak, as long as you had it between you and the panicky > swimmers and could swim away from them if they started climbing over and > trying to grab you. You secured the scene by thrusting your kayak into > the situation as a virtually unsinkable life raft. <snip> >From your original post: > They panicked. I don't know whether the > small motorized dinghy sank or drifted away but they did not seem to be > able to hang on to it for support. Did anyone ever find out what happened to the dinghy and why they were unable to hold on to it? That questions keeps coming back to me though I agree that pushing my kayak to the panicky swimmers seems the most logical idea in the scenario described above. Maybe the dinghy was washed away in the boat wakes? Though somewhat heated :-) I think this has been a good topic. Thanks, Ralph. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie Fenton wrote: > > >From your original post: > > > They panicked. I don't know whether the > > small motorized dinghy sank or drifted away but they did not seem to be > > able to hang on to it for support. > > Did anyone ever find out what happened to the dinghy and why they were > unable to hold on to it? That questions keeps coming back to me though I > agree that pushing my kayak to the panicky swimmers seems the most > logical idea in the scenario described above. Maybe the dinghy was > washed away in the boat wakes? I heard various reports. It was in the newspapers and on television since it was a double drowning within almost spitting distance of Manhattan's seawall. I don't think it washed away. I believe it sank when it filled with water. I had heard from marina people that the motor was too big. Perhaps it was and the transom (is that the word for the rear of a small boat?) had little freeboard and a wake washed into the boat. Given the precise scenario of this real life tragedy, I still think that a PFDed paddler giving up his/her boat by getting out of it was in virtually no danger and would provide the best instant rescue device, a large floatable object for the panicky non-swimmers to hang on to. They still may have screwed up and not known to hang on. Given the location, help was most definitely on the way. Over last winter, one of our paddlers went over while paddling a rather tippy sit-on-top. He discovered that he could not get back on. A passerby noticed him from the seawall, asked if he needed help. He said yes. Within a few minutes a police launch was there to help. The accident that I mentioned with the two fellows who drowned occured in the summertime with dozens of people walking in the park. I am sure that within 5 minutes there were two police boats on the scene, also several motorboats from the marina, as well as firemen up on the seawall. A kayaker's temporarily handed over kayak would have saved the day and it would probably not have merited more than about 5 lines as filler in some inside page of the Daily News or a small column in a weekly community newspaper. The need to do something immediately was that critical. > > Though somewhat heated :-) I think this has been a good topic. It has. And again, it has run the "what ifs" and "what I would dos" through our minds. If, god forbid, any of us find ourselves in a situation like this in any form, what we worked through our minds now might come into play. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My, my, but there have been lots of opinions expressed since I last looked at the digests. Ralph you have my thanks for posing such an interesting and thought provoking scenario. I also note that I have not seen any comments along the lines of: "give them a Darwin Award", or "this is just nature's way of cleaning out the gene pool" or "shoot them and put them out of their misery." All of which might be considered "politically correct" in some circles. It has been over 30 years since I last had swim rescue training, however, my recollection is that we were taught pretty much what I have been taught in the First Responder courses. The first rule is don't put yourself in danger. Yes, I know we all are likely to take more risks than a Monday Morning Quarterback would agree with, but that's life. What we were taught back in the middle ages was to stay out of reach of panicked victims. Period. Reach, throw, row(paddle), go(swim) was the hierarchy. In Ralph's situation I would first paddle in toward the victims and try to talk to them to assess their condition and to calm them down. Rescue options could be deploying a tow line and sweeping it past the victims so they could grab it for a tow to shore. Or as an alternative, take Ralph's option and present a bow to them, after warning them that if they did not do as they were told I would leave them in the water. Once they were holding onto my bow I would try to paddle backwards to shore. I have never had to rescue a panicked victim. However, as part of the Boy Scout training, way back when, we did have water safety instructors do their best to act like panicked victims who did not care if they took their rescuer down with them. The experience convinced me that I should not try to hand rescue a panicked victim. On the negative side, I would not exit my boat and push it to the victims. And I would not toss my PFD to them. Freedom of speech is not license of speech. If I advocate a position you consider unwise, foolish or even idiotic, feel free to say so. However, chose a tone that you want me to use when I reply to your constructive criticism. :-) Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/18/00 2:58:05 PM !!!First Boot!!!, dana.dickson_at_unisys.com writes: << Reach, throw, row(paddle), go(swim) was the hierarchy. >> For the benefit of people that are not familiar with this phrase, REACH = use a branch or paddle or something other than your person to reach and pull the person in distress (PID) to safety. THROW = if you are unable to reach the PID with something, throw something that will float to them, preferably something that is tethered. Be sure to hold onto one end to pull the PID to safety. GO = the GO that I was taught "is" go for help. If you cannot REACH or THROW and you do not have rescue swimming training, GO for help. Do not jeopardize your safety by jumping in the water with a panicked PID. A simple fact of Emergency Rescue and Medicine is that not everybody makes it. You try to do the most good for the most people. The Protection Hierarchy is Personal, Partner, Public. If you take training in advance, your decision time in the event of an emergency situation should be less. This is critical. Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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