Rick Sylvia said: <<I saw something at lunch today that I had to chuckle over, so just for fun, :-) I thought I'd stir up the almost dead PFD saga >> I don't want to stir up any trouble with the PFD debate, especially in my Codeine induced brain-deadness this week, but I would like to say that any water sports person who doesn't wear a PFD the majority of times out on the water is a bloody idiot - and that's coming from someone who is accused of also being one (for other reasons). I see unsafe actions portrayed in woodworking magazines all the time, including advertisements. I see numerous letters to the editor actually printed, but I've never seen one (and I assume they do get written) taking the editors to task for the unsafe practices portrayed in the adverts. Definitely a double standard. A friend of mine has written to C&K Magazine over a number of theses types of safety issues, but has never been published in the letter to the editor column (though he did get a reply back once). Well, as I'm suffering a bout of AIDS right now (Acquired Intelligence Deficiency Syndrome) I'll cease and desist post haste from stirring the waters. However, I would like to add some useful information to PW, as I've not contributed much lately other than off-topic dribble (which I see a lot of from others too, on this list over the past year). We had a Canadian Safe Boating Symposium in March here in BC, and some of the information shared was very interesting regarding PFD's. Most PW'ers know all this stuff, but some newbies might benefit. The keynote speaker, Dr Micheal Tipton, found that even individuals wearing "life jackets" and immersion suites were at high risk of drowning in cold water, if adrift in a rough, confused sea state with multiple wave patterns. Apparently, a video was shown of waves washing over the head of an individual so dressed, and it was noted that only 150 ml of water would be sufficient to drown the victim. There is now more research being done with respect to equipping a splash guard that integrates with the lifejacket to protect the face. It makes me wonder how well one would fair with no PFD. While I was on my summer holiday with my family, I stopped in at the Courtney-Comox Coroner's Office to compare notes where upon we continued to help each other finish up our respective reports on the kayaker who died last spring kite sailing across Georgia Strait (he, his coroner's report/recomendations; and me, a Sea Kayaker article). We talked a fair bit about hypothermia and PFD use. He was late with his appointment with me, as he was just returning from investigating a death of a fisherman whose boat plowed under a wave while reversing. Two guys went in the water, and the one without the PFD died. He said it was a clear-cut case, and added it to his thick file of boaters who die with no PFD on. As an aside, it was interesting to note that the coroner also does critical incident debriefing and runs a men's group for rescue personnel suffering Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. He was very interested in the Storm Island story, in particular the aftermath with Dave and Dave's belligerence at having the story published and what the trigger points were/are. It gave me some insight and understanding that I did not have prior to the informative meeting with him. Cold incidents of a long duration figured prominently in his highlights. I find this stuff more interesting and relevant than long posts about sharks and kayaking, but that's just me :-) As far as other interesting information from the Safe Boating Symposium, here are a few highlights: - Rescuers are being trained to keep hypothermia victims horizontal when lifting them out of the water. - The "gasp reflex" has been studied in much more detail, and it would appear one's breath cannot be held for more than 5 seconds in 10 degree C water -- for the average victim with minimal thermal protection. - Most drowning deaths occur within 2 to 3 meters of safe refuge. - Grip strength tests show a marked loss such that the plastic wrap of a simple rescue device could not be opened, and if it was, not deployed. - If muscle temperature is below 27 degrees C, skin becomes anesthetized and nerve impulses to said muscles are so impaired that functionality is lost. - Swimming, of course, increases convective cooling, but if you must swim for some reason, use the legs only as less blood from the legs moves to the core than from the arms. - Forget the space blanket if you are shivering above water after a wet-cold incident. A large plastic bag works much better, as most of the cooling is via convection and evaporation, rather than via radiation of heat from the body. - Those at greater risk are individuals with a low percentage of body fat, have consumed alcohol or drugs, and have been through some trauma or are fatigued. Add lack of a PFD and those influenced by poor role modeling within national outdoors magazines, if you like! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who keeps thinking of unsubsribing from the list, but can't seem to do it) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/6/00 6:45:12 AM !!!First Boot!!!, dlloyd_at_telus.net writes: << - The "gasp reflex" has been studied in much more detail, and it would appear one's breath cannot be held for more than 5 seconds in 10 degree C water -- for the average victim with minimal thermal protection. >> The "gasp reflex", if I am not mistaken, would be the cause of dry lung drowning. Water, splashed into an open mouth, triggers an involuntary closure of muscles in the throat. Is this correct? Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <Outfit3029_at_aol.com> > > The "gasp reflex", if I am not mistaken, would be the cause of dry lung > drowning. > Water, splashed into an open mouth, triggers an involuntary closure of > muscles in the throat. Is this correct? The gasp reflex is what happens when you hit really cold water. Your reaction is to gasp and inhale. Some say you can avoid it if you have the presense of mind to realize it's about to happen and use will power. Others claim you can prevent it through training. I have no experience with it - I stay out of _really_ cold water (though demonstrating a wet exit this past spring in cold water almost made me forget what I was doing and roll up!) Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:39:04 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: > >I see unsafe actions portrayed in woodworking magazines all the >time, including advertisements. I see numerous letters to the editor >actually printed, but I've never seen one (and I assume they do get >written) taking the editors to task for the unsafe practices >portrayed in the adverts. Definitely a double standard. A friend of >mine has written to C&K Magazine over a number of theses types of >safety issues, but has never been published in the letter to the >editor column (though he did get a reply back once). > I've had the dubious honor of being the "bad example" on the cover of a paddling magazine (Sea Kayaker, April '99). Though it was embarrassing for me, I was grateful to see in the August issue, a letter to the editor complaining about the portrayal of a paddler in the surf without a helmet (eek! that was me!). Happily, nothing terrible happened that day, but I know I was fortunate. I was wearing my PFD though! Needless to say - but I will anyway - I've always worn a helmet in the surf since then. Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa: "I've had the dubious honor of being the "bad example" on the cover of a paddling magazine (Sea Kayaker, April '99)..." What was the surf like that day? It looked like being a challenging breakout. If I remember the photo correctly, you had a peaked cap on. I also remember thinking that you might not keep it on while paddling through that break! Regards, Peter Treby 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:03:44 +1000, Peter Treby wrote: >Melissa: >>"I've had the dubious honor of being the "bad example" on the cover >>of a paddling magazine (Sea Kayaker, April '99)..." >What was the surf like that day? It looked like being a challenging >breakout. If I remember the photo correctly, you had a peaked cap >on. I also remember thinking that you might not keep it on while >paddling through that break! >Regards, >Peter Treby >37°42'S 145°08'E > Peaked hat? eek! I suppose it was just a bad hair day ;-). The surf was big and messy that day (quite big, as I recall), and seemed to go on forever - but it was fun! The only casualty that day was (were?) my sunglasses - a lens popped out somewhere along the way. About the photo: it was "reversed" - the left side paddle blade should have been power-face up (right hand control), and you can see the Kokatat label on the "wrong" sleeve of my drytop. Artistic decision, I guess - to get me pointed in the right direction? John (the photographer) told me that day not to be surprised if I saw myself in print somewhere, but I was very surprised anyway when I pulled it out of my mailbox six months later. Melissa note: see the PFD? :-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<< I don't want to stir up any trouble with the PFD debate, especially in my Codeine induced brain-deadness this week, but I would like to say that any water sports person who doesn't wear a PFD the majority of times out on the water is a bloody idiot >> Ah, you've got to love broad unqualified sweeping statements such as these. As I tried to post a week or so back, but was apparently censored, the last time I went surfing here in Southern California there were probably a couple of hundred people in the water, mostly board surfers, but around twenty or so kayak and waveski surfers as well, and I did not see a single pfd on the water! I guess every surfer in California is "a bloody idiot." Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
All the magazines have been guilty of being laissez-faire about PFDs. 1) For the longest time back in the past, Sea Kayaker seemed to be resisting having paddlers wear PFDs in the magazine's cover art. The covers were not fotos but painted art work and it seemed to be purer not to have that ghastly practical thing on the subject. It became quite an issue for some of us Northeasterners. Finally Carl White of Hopewell NJ, who also at one time edited the Anorak newsletter, sent them a few letters calling the editors to task for this. In the issue that Carl's letter regarding the covers was published, the cover was that of clearly an Inuit paddler of yore, i.e. pre-PFDs. I don't know if it was coincidental or being cute. Sea Kayaker certainly has a pro-PFD policy now albeit some of its ads lack PFDs, which is really hard for them to control. As far as I can see, most if not all of the magazine written copy and stories do have the paddlers wearing PFDs. 2) Canoe & Kayak when it was run by Dave Harrison featured his editor's column in each issue with a picture of him. He was never wearing a PFD in the foto. He was finally needled into redoing the photo cum PFD and recognized in an editorial the role model aspect. Again, ads may have people without PFDs and is difficult to control. I do work for C&K but have no inside info about policy but I was pleasantly surprised to hear that their instructions to authors stress that fotos have paddlers wearing PFDs and acting responsibly. 3) My own flirtation with the PFD cover issue. In terms of full disclosure, having pointed a finger at two of the mags, I must confess my own temptation. First of all there are fotos in my book that have people without PFDs that I really had no control over. These are stock fotos I needed and got from Klepper's files when I visited the factory. Germans were (are) loath to wear PFDs (more on that below in #4). Second, when it came to shoot a cover for the book I was up at LL Bean's SK symposium with the publisher. I asked Janice Lozano to do the photo (she is a partner with her husband Bill in the very successful Atlantic Kayak Tours here in New York that does trips and instruction and organized that superb BCU symposium here in late July everyone is still talking about). I found a couple of people to pose in a single and double folding kayak. But suddenly I, in my narrow focus, saw this all in polemic terms. If people were seen wearing PFDs on the cover of the book then it might be interpreted that folding kayaks are unsafe and therefore you should wear a PFD when paddling one. I said let's dispense with the PFDs. Janice, who is usually quite mild-mannered, said a quiet but jarringly firm "No" that brought me to my senses. I never said I was perfect or incapable of being stupid! :-) 4) Speaking of being stupid and back to the German mentality. In 1993, when I was visiting the Klepper factory, I had the chance to try out a then prototype model that became the Aerius 2000. It had been designed and made over the winter and paddled just once by the designer and no one else down in the Mediterrean. I was in Bavaria at the factory just after the local lakes had unfrozen of their ice. I was intoxicated with the idea of being the first person in a new Klepper model (the first in some 40 years!) on the very same waters that the first Klepper ever had been tested back in 1907 (also quite high on a big bratwurst lunch with plenty of beer). We went with the prototype to the Chemsee (a large lake near Rosenheim). When we were grabbing the boat from the factory, I started to search around for a PFD. The owner of the company, Herman Walther was indignant. "You will not paddle one of my boats wearing a PFD. It would be embarassing to me!" What could I say? The price of admission was no-PFD and this was an emotional priceless opportunity for me or for any folding kayaker. Next, I considered the temperature of the water. Let's see...lake unfrozen two weeks ago. What could the temperature be now? It had to be cold, real cold. Oh well I will just paddle it next to shore and inside the closed-for-the-season marina at the lake. We got there and I paddled around next to shore. Got some fotos taken. Then Herman insisted that I paddle about a mile or so across the lake to a fabled island. There I was. No PFD, no sprayskirt, no pump, no bailer, no paddlefloat, no cold water clothing (I had on borrowed raingear and some polypro plus plastic beach slippers), no signaling device not even a whistle. Name any safety device you can and I did _not_ have it! What did I do? Didn't I say earlier that I can be pretty stupid? I paddled across like an idiot! ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 6 Sep 2000, ralph diaz wrote: > Germans were (are) loath to wear PFDs > There was a discussion on wearing PFDs on Faltboot.de recently and it ran on similar lines as on PW: You should wear one! Even the rare excuses were the same: a PFD is not always necessary on small and calm inland waterways. It seems difficult to enforce security rules, in kayaking as elsewhere. I often accompany my son Erik to kayak competitions here in France. The French Kayak Federation has enacted strict security measures for these rapid racing boats: Helmet, PFD, flotation, foot-brace, etc. And they always do sample controls at the regional and national competitions and they regularly disqualify kayakers not respecting these rules. This negligence is astonishing, as these skilfull kayakers sometimes run on class III-IV WW. The comparison with car safety comes to mind. At this years Championats de France on the Isere river the federation toughened its controls: After the official trial run *every* boat was inspected. My son luckily passed, but his friend had to buy a new PFD within 24 h (old foam, inadequate buoancy, was a thread on PW). Good business for the dealers present selling PFDs... I think it is nearly a crosscultural phenomenon that people think (in kayaking and elsewhere) that they have the situation completely under their control and that those nasty accidents only happen to other people. We know what we should do and we don't do it! Reinhold Weber *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa said: <<I've had the dubious honor of being the "bad example" on the cover of a paddling magazine (Sea Kayaker, April '99).>> <snip> Yes Melissa, you created quite a stir if memory serves me correctly. I believe it was during your pre-Paddlewise days. Perhaps more interesting than the debate the omission of a helmet caused, was the fact that because no helmet was being worn during the photo, your long hair had full exposure to the camera lens -- causing many to think the kayaker in the photo was a long-haired macho male kayak surfer. Whether it was at the magazine rack at the local kayak store, or even the editorial staff at SK Magazine conducting an impromptu poll when people called in on other matters, everyone I know was asking each other if it was a male or a female on the cover. Oh Melissa, you controversial chick! ("chick" isn't PC, but I'm using it as a term of endearment :-) ). BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:22:44 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: "...long-haired macho male kayak surfer..." ack! A friend of mine calls me a "gnarly boater babe". I think I like that better :-) Well, I was living out here on the edge of almost somewhere, so I was spared all the controversy "in town" I suppose. Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott said: Doug said: << I don't want to stir up any trouble with the PFD debate, especially in my Codeine induced brain-deadness this week, but I would like to say that any water sports person who doesn't wear a PFD the majority of times out on the water is a bloody idiot >> < Ah, you've got to love broad unqualified sweeping statements such as these. As I tried to post a week or so back, but was apparently censored, the last time I went surfing here in Southern California there were probably a couple of hundred people in the water, mostly board surfers, but around twenty or so kayak and waveski surfers as well, and I did not see a single pfd on the water! I guess every surfer in California is "a bloody idiot."> Scott, you are missing the point. It was _meant_ to be a broad unqualified sweeping statement. Unless one is an extremely good swimmer or near the beach on a lee shore, maintaining buoyancy (especially in choppy, cold water) is very difficult and one tires extremely quickly in this situation. It is not long before every fiber in your body cries out for support as it becomes increasingly difficult not to gulp in water. While I admit wearing a PFD can simply prolong the agony of pending death and even restrict swimming to safety where it is not too far away, generally, the longer you have in the water, the more chance there is of a passing vessel or plan spotting you (this is assuming a worst case scenario where your vessel cannot be reborded, etc.) Yes, there are certain activities where PFD's are not commonly worn, like board surfing. Generally, the board is you life preserver and the shoreline your sanctuary. It would also be difficult to dive under a wave with a PFD on. In colder water, a wet suite provides a good degree of buoyancy. In the case of a Tofino surfer taken out to sea by strong undercurrents, he spent the night on some kelp before being rescued. There are also regional differences in people's views towards PFD's, as ralph has so eloquently pointed out recently. However, in Pakistan where I lived, people bathed in the same water they used as a toilet. That doesn't mean I'm going to do the same thing. Pakistan poor people also have a high rate of dysentery. As to why you were censored on PW, I have no idea. I do know you can be very negative on this list at times, and I don't know why you have such a big chip on your shoulder that implicates itself on many of you infrequent posts and replies. I though you So Cal dudes hung loose down there. What's up, man? I know I may have appeared negative too, but my use of the term "bloody idiot" wasn't meant in the pejorative slang connotation. Here in BC, we are very bullish against drinking drivers, and many of us sport bumper stickers that read, "If you drink and drive, you are a bloody idiot". That was the vein I meant my statement in. The hazards of waterborne travel are such that many feel those who paddle without PFD's (indeed most recreational water users) are "foolish", which perhaps is a more acceptable term in your part of the world, though you may feel that the plethora of kayak surfers in So Cal without PFD's are not foolish. Obviously, kayak surfers are not dying en masse down your way. I was thinking more in context of the original post which suggested as the rejoiners came through that not wearing a PFD was a poor example, especially for newbies who stand a greater chance of falling victim to drowning. I'm sure the vast majority of PW'ers and even most competent boaters of various stripes will never need the back-up protection that a PFD gives. As far as every surfer in California being a "bloody idiot", I didn't say that, though through misinterpretation and misapplication and twisting of my term "water sports person" you have indeed made me look like a bloody idiot, which I rather think you seem to enjoy doing. This is sad, as I have nothing against you, Scott (or So Cal). I will, however, maintain that wearing a PFD in most cases, is the prudent, responsible thing to do. I'm not a member of the self-appointed safety police. It is just common sense too me. And at the last surf kayak event I was at, everyone was wearing a PFD. Of course, we don't get fried the same way as you do on the water with your southern latitude heat rays. Oh, So Cal's beautiful weather! I'm jealous of you. Maybe I do hate you :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>the > last time I went surfing here in Southern California there were > probably a > couple of hundred people in the water, mostly board surfers, but > around > twenty or so kayak and waveski surfers as well, and I did not see a > single > pfd on the water! I guess every surfer in California is "a bloody > idiot." > > Scott > So.Cal. > You said it, I didn't........ Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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