Just a quick thought on charging for rescues: I seem to remember this issue coming up in the climbing/mountaineering community due to the large increase in participants in the 70's. The SAR and Parks organizations were trying to grapple with the increased demand for rescues. I think for everyone involved that there was no desire to charge people for "legitimate" rescues, i.e. for circumstances beyond the control of the victims or where reasonable judgement could not have prevented. The rescue people were just getting tired of pulling people off the mountain that simply got in over their heads or were ill equipped for the conditions. This wasted resources and also put rescue personnel and volunteers at unnecessary risk. One of the ideas proposed was to charge the people who got into trouble because of their own lack of preparedness or inexperience. This in theory would give a financial incentive to get proper instruction and be properly equipped for the conditions. And on the surface this seems a reasonable thing to do--make the irresponsible individuals pay for their own rescues. however I think the practical reality of allowing a government agency or decided what was reasonably unforeseeable and what was not (especially to the general public) could make them face even more costly litigation. I have never heard of anyone ever having to pay under these rules except in cases of out right criminal negligence and reckless endangerment. I know in some places where they had control over the activities they would issue a permit. This happened to me in 1980 when a few climbing buddies and I went to climb mount Rainier. A specially trained climbing ranger would inspect our equipment, interview each of us to determine our experience and intended route, and then issued us a climbing permit. It was a very reasonable interview and I actually felt good about it to know there was at least some kind of a process to reduce the risk of being exposed to someone else's stupidity (I have put myself at risk more than a few times pulling someone else's butt off a mountain they should have not been on). Unfortunately there are not very many places where such policing is possible in wilderness situations and I do not know if more rigorously enforcing regulations with citations and fines would help much. I think this would simply result in more complaints than actual compliance. Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 7 April 2000 I did the stupidest thing I have ever done in my life. I was skiing at Mt. Bachelor, Oregon. It was a gorgeous sunny day and the snow was quite good. At about 3:30 pm (when any sensible person should be thinking about getting back to the car), I was getting off the highest chairlift, feeling high from the sun and the snow and my terrific Vokl race skis, when I suddenly and on an entirely irrational impulse decided to... SKI OUT OF BOUNDS. To make a long story short, I could not get back to civilization and had to spend the night out. My old Army training enabled me to survive the night. I managed to get back to civilization around 9:30 the next morning. Since I got out by myself, I did not have to pay the fee the ski patrol charges for searches. (They had started a search at about 8 am, after my roommates notified them that my bed had not been slept in.) I was a fool to have skied out of bounds - especially since there were big boundary signs warning of the danger of skiing past them, and specifying the hourly rate (I don't remember the amount but it was fiercely high) the ski patrol charges for searches. In my opinion the ski patrol is fully justified in charging. It takes a great deal of time and effort to search through a thickly forested wilderness (such as exists on the lower flanks of Batchlor), and if someone gets lost there not through circumstances beyond his control but through his own foolishness, why shouldn't the ski patrol charge him? The only problem I see is if the person can't afford to pay the fee, which can come to a very large amount if it is a long search. I assume the mountain would arrange some kind of time payment. If anyone is interested in the full story, let me know and I'll email the file to you. Specify whether you want plain text or MS Word. Jack Fu 47°38'N 122°08'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:47 PM 10/2/2000 -0700, Peter A. Chopelas wrote: >remember this >issue coming up in the climbing/mountaineering community due to the large >increase in participants in the 70's. The SAR and Parks organizations were >trying to grapple with the increased demand for rescues. Peter is correct. We flew air rescue and Search and Rescue in Washington at a time when the local authorities did not have access to the resources available to the US Military. Thus after Vietnam, MAST was born: Military Assistance to Safety and Traffic. It was seen as a way to provide live training to the troops and assistance to the civilian population that wasn't available through any other means. There were extreme risks taken by all: the victims and the rescue parties, but the job was done and done well by volunteers and professionals in the Park Service, Law Enforcement, EMS and the US Army and Air Force. Mountain rescues were growing at an alarming rate in the Pacific Northwest at that time. The cost to launch a full scale medical evacuation or search and rescue operation was far beyond $ 2,000 then and now. The operating cost of one helicopter alone was above $ 750 dollars per hour not including the crew, which had millions of dollars worth of training invested by the tax payer. Tacoma Mountain Rescue (I believe the first and oldest in the US), Seattle Mountain Rescue, Everett, Yakima Search and Rescue, etc. are made up of volunteers that are far more professional than one would ever expect from a all volunteer organization. Many lives have been saved by these fine organizations and ones like them both with the use of tax payers dollars and without. Can we really put a price on a rescue or ever determine the value returned by those lives plucked off the mountain side. I think not. I do find it interesting, however, that in areas with a lot of paddlers there isn't a similar organization of volunteers for sea kayaking or sailing, fishermen and boaters in general. Funded by donations and staffed by volunteers. The use of existing resources from the Coast Guard combined with private boats staffed by volunteers could be a dent in the cost to the tax payer and hopefully create a means to emphasize the need for proper training and preparation prior to embarking on a risky trip. Don't the British have something similar for their Life Boats, kind of like Volunteer Firemen? An Auxiliary Coast Guard on Steroids. Fred T. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Peter is correct. We flew air rescue and Search and Rescue in Washington > at a time when the local authorities did not have access to the resources > available to the US Military. Thus after Vietnam, MAST was born: Military > Assistance to Safety and Traffic. In some areas, there was such demand for the services of this organization that a second organization had to be formed -- the Benevolent Association for Traffic Extrication (BATE). Thus, if you were in trouble you had an option: MAST or BATE. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark: Were you ever a Air Rescue Medic knocked 20 feet down the mountain by 25,000 volts of static electricity from a Breeze Hoist because you forgot to let it touch the ground first? On Mt. Rainier no less! If not, you would have certainly fit in with the guys I flew with! I've got to hand it to you - I mean ..................................... Fred At 09:42 AM 10/4/2000 -0400, Sailboat Restorations, Inc. wrote: > > Peter is correct. We flew air rescue and Search and Rescue in Washington > > at a time when the local authorities did not have access to the resources > > available to the US Military. Thus after Vietnam, MAST was born: >Military > > Assistance to Safety and Traffic. > >In some areas, there was such demand for the services of this organization >that a second organization had to be formed -- the Benevolent Association >for Traffic Extrication (BATE). Thus, if you were in trouble you had an >option: MAST or BATE. >Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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