[demime could not interpret encoding binary - treating as plain text] >From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> >Political correctness (can't leave that out!): Wood boats use >up high-quality wood, either from temperate rain forests (cedar strippers) or >tropical rain forests (okume sng boats). When I was in Seattle I dropped by Pygmy and paddled a few of their boats. My wife asked about the wood and where it comes from. They claimed that all of their wood comes from tree farms in Israel, not from a tropical rain forest. Specifically planted trees for later harvesting. Mel "When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> >Political correctness (can't leave that out!): Wood boats use >up high-quality wood, either from temperate rain forests (cedar strippers) or >tropical rain forests (okume sng boats). If you really want to minimize the environmental impact of your kayak construction, go skin-on-frame. You'll use less wood than a s&g or stripper. The frame can be made of almost any wood, including reused old wood from the demolition of a building. Some folks (like George Putz) advocate using old furniture as a source of wood. Don't use glues, epoxy or varnish. You can scarf joints and use either pins (wood) or hooked scarfs and lash them with flax twine. Lash all the frames joints with the twine as well. Treat the whole thing with linseed oil and it'll last a long time. Use cotton or linen for a skin, treated with linseed as well and coat it with a linseed and chalk waterproofing on the outside. When the kayak has finished its useful life, you can chop it up and throw it into a compost pile. It'll take a long time to compost, but that beats generating garbage! Alternative frames like aluminum are at least recyclable. Even a non-recyclable, non-reusable skin like kevlar, polyester or nylon coated with the smelly, toxic (when wet) stuff like epoxy, 2 part urethane etc uses less material than a fiberglass kayak; the skin is for waterproofing, not structural strength. Aluminum and, say, coated nylon makes a smaller enviro-footprint than 'glassed okume if you only consider the end-of-life scenario (I'm not sure about the sourcing issue). Mike (Who is too far into the planning stages of a s/f kayak to recover.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mel responded to Dave's comments: (Dave Kruger said): >political correctness (can't leave that out!): Wood boats use >up high-quality wood, either from temperate rain forests (cedar strippers) or >tropical rain forests (okume sng boats). <<When I was in Seattle I dropped by Pygmy and paddled a few of their boats. My wife asked about the wood and where it comes from. They claimed that all of their wood comes from tree farms in Israel, not from a tropical rain forest. Specifically planted trees for later harvesting.>> Mel Coincidentally, I'm working on an article for Wavelength Magazine this weekend regarding "Wood Technology in the 21st Century". I'm covering aspects including woodworking safety, as well as ethnical considerations for their upcoming wooden boat issue. My research and interviews with Pygmy and Chesapeake Lightcraft, et al, suggests the Okume plywood is harvested in Africa on plantation grow operations, and the actual plywood, amongst other countries, is manufactured in Israel. No one is actually on-site at the African location, so as of yet, the plywood can not be eco-certified, though attempts are being made. While plantation wood is generally a good environmental practice subject to on-going verification in the above instance, the social consequences and related questions, still to be answered, are even less readily apparent. Cedar strip canoes and kayaks are a bit more problematic, in that generally, end-users prefer the higher grades of tight grain cedar - read, old growth. One high note, is that due to its prized nature, small salvage operations are attempting to extract the countless cedar logs still left in the forest from reckless, wasteful logging practices over the last few decades. Regarding cedar: In my late teens, I worked for a year for a high-pressure company that helicoptered-out blocks of cut-out old cedar (we did the back-breaking cutting and removal with 4' long chain saws and heavy mauls) for shipment of shakes to mostly California homes during the heyday of that fad. I can attest to how remarkably well preserved this wood is after many years lying about. The long-rage implications for quality cedar harvesting of live trees, is still a thorny issue. To be environmentally responsible however, one's efforts are better spent working at the political level and consumer demand level with respect to insisting your wood purchases are from sources where sound-environmental practices are carried out -- rather than worrying about the bit of wood that the end user tallies up constructing a kayak or canoe. My opinion, of course. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have been wrestling with the ethics of using what I am sure is old growth lumber for my boats. I have not come up with a non-selfish reason why I should continue to use it, but I do continue. The old growth stuff is just really nice to work with, is beautiful and is all-round better stuff than new growth lumber. I rationalize that the 30 to 40 board feet of lumber per boat is not a big drain on the environment. My mother-in-law's house was just clapboarded with beautiful western red cedar siding. With the leftover clapboards I just sided a 10' x 20' boat storage house and still have enough leftover for a similar sized building. If the builders were better at estimating their usage in ordering, the amount of wood I use for kayaks could easily be saved. BTW, anyone want some nice western red cedar clapboards? I've probably got 400 or 500 linear feet leftover. Probably enough for a 10' x 12' building with 8' walls. I would cut them up for boat strips, but the 50% or more waste in the milling prevents me. Nick At 1:57 PM -0800 10/29/00, Doug Lloyd wrote: >Mel responded to Dave's comments: > > (Dave Kruger said): >>political correctness (can't leave that out!): Wood boats use >>up high-quality wood, either from temperate rain forests (cedar >strippers) or >>tropical rain forests (okume sng boats). > ><<When I was in Seattle I dropped by Pygmy and paddled a few of their >boats. My wife asked about the wood and where it comes from. They >claimed that all of their wood comes from tree farms in Israel, not from >a tropical rain forest. Specifically planted trees for later >harvesting.>> >Mel > >Coincidentally, I'm working on an article for Wavelength Magazine this >weekend regarding "Wood Technology in the 21st Century". I'm covering >aspects including woodworking safety, as well as ethnical considerations >for their upcoming wooden boat issue. > >My research and interviews with Pygmy and Chesapeake Lightcraft, et al, >suggests the Okume plywood is harvested in Africa on plantation grow >operations, and the actual plywood, amongst other countries, is >manufactured in Israel. No one is actually on-site at the African >location, so as of yet, the plywood can not be eco-certified, though >attempts are being made. While plantation wood is generally a good >environmental practice subject to on-going verification in the above >instance, the social consequences and related questions, still to be >answered, are even less readily apparent. > >Cedar strip canoes and kayaks are a bit more problematic, in that >generally, end-users prefer the higher grades of tight grain cedar - >read, old growth. One high note, is that due to its prized nature, small >salvage operations are attempting to extract the countless cedar logs >still left in the forest from reckless, wasteful logging practices over >the last few decades. > >Regarding cedar: In my late teens, I worked for a year for a >high-pressure company that helicoptered-out blocks of cut-out old cedar >(we did the back-breaking cutting and removal with 4' long chain saws >and heavy mauls) for shipment of shakes to mostly California homes >during the heyday of that fad. I can attest to how remarkably well >preserved this wood is after many years lying about. The long-rage >implications for quality cedar harvesting of live trees, is still a >thorny issue. > >To be environmentally responsible however, one's efforts are better >spent working at the political level and consumer demand level with >respect to insisting your wood purchases are from sources where >sound-environmental practices are carried out -- rather than worrying >about the bit of wood that the end user tallies up constructing a kayak >or canoe. My opinion, of course. > >BC'in Ya >Doug Lloyd > -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St, Suite I Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick, snips > > > The guy is willing to do more (using my C & B > bits) in case > > anyone is interested. Shippable by UPS ... > > > Donald, I'm debating the "make vs. buy" > delima. What is your "C & B > bits"? I don't think I understand that. COMMENT FROM DONALD > ! C & B bits (cove and bead router bits) ... the tool that makes the strips nestable .. > Also, > how much of the wood is > requiremed to build a kayak, Rick, this depends on the design .... select your design first ... construction is fairly simple if you know basic woodworking ... there are many fine books on the subject. Personally I choose the Guillemot Double, as I plan on building boat for our tour operation in Brazil. It required 1,960' (linear feet .. not board feet) of strips 1/4" (thick) x 3/4" (wide) .. cove and beaded. But it is a kayak 20' long ... > where is the > furniture maker located, and is he > willing to start receiving phone calls from > people wanting to receive a > shipment of his scrap? The furniture maker is located close to my house in the deep bayou country of south Louisiana. No .. he doesn't want a bunch of phone calls .... but he is willing to cut orders for people if I handle all of the communications until I leave for Brazil. I will have to do the bundling and arrange the shipping. No problem .. I like talking to the old man anyway. He used to build the Cajun pirouges .... Capt. Donald *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: <I rationalize that the 30 to 40 board feet of lumber per boat is not a big drain on the environment. My mother-in-law's house was just clapboarded with beautiful western red cedar siding.> Exactly. By my uneducated guesstimates: a large log, average dia. 1 meter by 50 meters long by specific gravity of cedar of 0.3 gives 12 metric tons. Sixty percent waste milling into strips and 10 kg of wood per kayak gives almost 500 boats per log. Is this close? Is the annual North American production of strippers even this high? Hard to believe that it is, since in 5.5 years in Seattle I think I've seen 3 on the water, and I lived within sight of the lake for much of that time! At this rate, no Marbled Murrelet, Spotted Owl or lynx would ever know we're out there. When I rebuild my rotten porch, I'll use Trex, but worrying about WRC consumption by kayak builders seems rediculous. Mike Wagenbach "I like to get to work early, so I can discard a pet hypothesis before breakfast." -Konrad Lorenz I'd settle for Happy Hour. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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